By the way, the whole book can be found here:
Western European Volunteers
in the German Army and SS, 1940-1945
Well, this thread has put up a couple of good points, especially on the issue of the legality of the SS.
Nobody would consider General Washington a criminal and look at him with disgust for being a slaveholder, though by the standards the Nuremberg Trials held, he would have been executed for just that (had he lived to see Slavery abolished).
They made a controversial survey in my University a couple of years ago. The question roughly went like this:
If slavery was legal, and you were looking for a job, would you consider becoming a slave trader? Would you become a slave holder?
(Assume that the people to be enslaved are of a different ethnicity than your own)
The results were pretty shocking: Around 40% of the students surveyed said they would at least consider becoming a slave trader, roughly 20% said they would definitely do it. (I’ll just go ahead and say that for every two people admitting it, there was at least one who didn’t admit it)
I think this portrays the capacity for evil people have, and how easily our everyday morals can be discarded as soon as something immoral becomes legalized and more or less accepted.
That’s probably one of the reasons why many German courts tried to reduce the sentences given to SS members by the Nuremberg Trial…
One thing nobody has contested so far is the common idea that the Wehrmacht had clean hands while the SS (waffen or not) did all the evil work.
This is purely a myth as stated in “the wehrmacht: history,myth,reality” by Wolfham Wette.
You can’t possibly think that propaganda against the slavs,jews and bolsheviks only worked for the SS and never actually tainted the wehrmacht?
Both committed crimes against civilians.
Here are some bits and pieces from this book:
Discrimination against jews in the German army started as early as 1920(by Hans von Seeckt notably) in the Reichswehr,this went from bad to worse by 1934 where an “aryan paragraph(3)” stated that “civil servants of non-aryan origin are to be placed on retirement status”.General von Blomberg seized the initiative and gave instructions that the “aryan paragraph” be applied to all ranks of the Reichswehr.This was before the “Nuremberg laws” were adopted in 1935.Only a few officers objected and one particulary protested against the “aryan paragraph”: Colonel Erich von Manstein who was only worried about his jewish ancestry.
By February 1939 training courses contained anti-semitic booklet of 40 pages long titled “jews in German history” written by Dr C.A Hoberg which stated all the “bad” things jews were responsible for in the German army.
Unfortunately theory leads to practice.
By the 22nd of June 1941, 3 million German soldiers received a key order titled “guidelines for the conduct of troops in Russia”.
It depicted Bolshevism as a “mortal ennemy of national socialist german people”.
the campaign against bolshevism would require german forces " to crack down hard" and “completely eliminate all resistance,both active and passive”.
It is important that jews were expressly mentioned in this OKW order.
This went along with the “commissar decree” of the OKW which gave instructions that they were to be shot on the spot.Commissars were seen as the incarnation of “jewish bolshevism”.
To reach all soldiers of all ranks ,the newsletter of the department Wpr (Wehrmacht propaganda),Mitteilung fur die truppe didn’t hide thet the russian campaign was “racial in character”,“in order to get rid Europe of jews”.
It was directed against “Stalin’s bolshevist-jewish system”
Well known massacres such as Kaunas,Lithuania or Belaya Tserkov in Ukraine were indeed perpetrated by Einsatzgruppen and sonderkommandos but also helped by regular soldiers of the Heer and civilians.
In Babi Yar near Kiev more than 30000 jewish civilians were killed by Einsatzgruppen C.
Here’s the report sent to Berlin by Major General Eberhard:
“the Wehrmacht welcomes the measures and requests a radical approach”.
Hope this helped to understand that there is no black and white views on massacres but only multiple shades of greys.
Hello Chevan,
I mean NO ill will in the asking.
Merely to point out, that as in any war, one side is, or is portrayed (and once the portrayal is absorbed by the public mind it becomes the ‘‘default reality’’) as “bad” as the other.
Which point I make in the very next paragraph I wrote, but which you chose to not quote, thus making my question seem to appear out of context. Perhaps that was not intentional on your part, so, I don’t take it as deliberately done by you.
In no sense was I attempting to “be dangerously provocative” by asking the question.
As to not asking such a question: if it can NOT be asked in reasoned/rational voice, then what purpose this entire WW2 Forum site? Trolls aside, Is not each member here wanting as accurate a record of events and data possible?
Was H731 justified, was Nagasaki, were German OR Soviet ‘‘Camps’’? ALL those are evils, human ones. Justified? NO.(In my view.)
Please do not think I intend to exonerate any of the combatant nations.
None of them, and I DO mean NONE have a spotless record, my own included.
But by the same token: please don’t think I intend to buy into modern revisionism either.
Respectful Regards, Uyraell.
Chevan,
Don’t believe everything in Beevor, the first tank battalion of King Tigers was 503 an army unit. Lets take 1st SS the premier SST ank Division when the Normandy campaign started the 1st Armoured Regiment had a 60 odd Panthers and 103 Panzer IV’s. It’s Panzerjager unit had Stug III’s so in AFV’s it isn’t bristling with new stuff. 116th had more Panthers at around 70. 9th and 10th SS had no Panthers at all in Normandy whilst the army units 2nd and Lehr did (Lehr also had organic King Tigers which no SS Division did).
On D Day the of the 6 battalions of Panzer Grenadiers in 1st SS only one had half tracks around 30 odd in the whole unit, 116th Panzer had 163 and it only had one Grenadier Regiment 1st SS had two. On the 1st of july it only had 1100 lorries out of a book strength of over 3000.
I could quote more and more, do I need too, forget Beevor and look at primary sources which are available on the web.
As for the cobblers about all SS being volunteers it just isn’t true, members of my favour 31st were conscripted into the SS as were plenty of others, do you regard the army soldiers transferred into 36th SS Dirlewanger as willing volunteers I doubt it or the 2000 Luftwaffe ground crew who joined 1st SS in 1944 before the Ardennes need I go on.
Wiking was a divison of mixed nations and you know that well . And make something clear one crime by one member of division doesn’t make the others from the division part of the crime , the commander is part of the crime because he take the responsibilty of any actions taken by his troops under his command . As for the others they are just witness to a crime. For example in court you can’t sentence some corporal for crime because he just saw how his fellow shoot someone in the head . Second thing don’t make from that political question - make the rules for everyone no matter if he served the USSR liberators , USA , Nazi Germany or whatever, because i see many times how you just say " oh SS - Killers , bastards etc. , Wehrmacht - well ok and so on ) . In every army there are criminals and the commanders and the men that made them ( only them ) have to be tried by court .
As for the formations of the SS i talk they are composed only by the nationality i speak ( 34th Landstorm Nederland and 23th Nederland as well as the bulgarian SS composed at the end of the war ) if someone found anyone from these divisions to commit crimes let’s post it , but not to say that the whole division are rapers , murderers and so on after all there is need of personal responsibility by the commander and the man who made the crime .
Copied from the axis history forum on Wiking.
Known war crimes
This division was for a long time regarded as one of the few larger Waffen-SS units not involved in war-crimes however research made public in recent years have shown this to be incorrect.
Soldiers from the division took part in the murder of hundreds of Jews in the castle at Zloczow (Zolochiv) during the first days of July 1941 together with Ukrainian militia. The massacre was put to an end by soldiers from 295. Infanterie-Division at the order of Oberstleutnant Helmuth Groscurth.
On 9 July 1941 soldiers from the division took part in the massacre of Jews in Lviv in revenge of the death of Hilmar Wäckerle, one of the regimental commanders.
A staff officer of 295. Infanterie-Division reported that soldiers from Wiking were shooting large numbers of Soviet POWs and civilians in June-July 1941, including 600 Jews in Zloczow (Zolochiv) in Ukraine.
In Zhitomir soldiers from the division took part in the rounding up and killing of commissars and officials July 1941.
Einsatzkommando 11 of Einsatzgruppe D and a mobile gassing van was travelling together with the division in 1942 murdering people seen as undesirable.
Sonderkommando Jankuhn led by Dr Herbert Jankuhn of the SS-Ahnenerbe was attached to Wiking and the division supported them in their plunder of artifacts from the Black Sea area in 1942.
General der Gebirgstruppen Karl Eglseer, commander of 4. Gebirgs-Division, complained about indiscipline and widespread looting by soldiers from Wiking in April 1942 when the divisions served near each other in the River Mius area. The Slovakian Generals Gustav Malár and Jozef Turanec, commanders of Slovak Fast Division that served next to Wiking during this period, also raised the same criticism.
The Finnish volunteers distributed among the units of the Wiking divisions instead of serving in the Finnisches Freiwilligen-Bataillon der Waffen-SS wrote in letters home and in their diaries about how the Soviet POWs and civilians were treated badly or even killed by soldiers from the division during the early phase of the war on the Eastern Front.
Wow, that aggression is aimed at the wrong guy, Ivaylo. If you read my posts you should know that I don’t believe that all SS are all bastards. And ptimms obviously just proved that I was right by saying that Wiking, too, committed war crimes…
There is nothing morally wrong with slavery as such. Just becasue in real life slavery very often went immoral it does not make it immoral per say.
Bed tratment of slaves is immoral. The slavery in itself is neutral.
Well no aggression towards no one just i said my point of view to make the things more clear 
I don’t deny that not only Wiking but others too made crimes it’s world fact …
Any kind of slavery is immoral , people are born to be free , the fact that some people try to make them slaves because they want power it’s another thing sooner or later these people are gone from the world . If slavery was great thing and right the Roman Empire would be here now ,but it is not you know why ? because the people wanted and will always want freedom and me including even if i realize that it can never be complete that don’t stop me to want it even more
There were different reasons why people became slaves. Sometimes it even happened voluntaraly.
But the main point is that the true freedom comes from within and does not depend on the external.
As notion slavery it self is not immoral. Immoral is when a master thinks better of himself than his slave. If he does not then there is no immorality issue.
2 Peter 2:19
They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.
Semantics.
We’re pretty much arguing about the meaning of slavery at this point…
Um, George Washington was noted for fighting according to the day’s ethical norms of warfare and wasn’t a war criminal. He also freely released his slaves not long after the War after coming to the realization of the double standard. I’m also unaware of any Nazis being executed for solely using forced labor and think it had more to do with putting people into murder showers. Although terror was used by both sides in the Revolutionary War, most regular military formations such as the Continental Army did not…
Slavery was not a war crime and the British Empire had only recently renounced slavery but were certainly were certainly no less exploitative of the natives in their Empire and spheres of influence than American slave holders were to their slaves…
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn’t imply that Washington was a war criminal. I merely said that he would - by today’s standards - be a criminal for slavery.
But you’re right. Forced labour lies in absolutely no relation to the murder of civilians based on racist ideologies.
Maybe my point would have been better brought across by using people like Custer or other famous “Indian-hunters”…
I don’t believe Beevor in everything:)
Especialy when he repeats the Nagis propogand about “behave of all russians toward civils”
But he use the datas and work of the Liddell Hart , the wordwide known expert of Third Reich top life anf Hitler;s environment.
This is fact, and we all may to trust him.
Sure he might be mistaken in some points, but in general he is a sample.
the first tank battalion of King Tigers was 503 an army unit. Lets take 1st SS the premier SST ank Division when the Normandy campaign started the 1st Armoured Regiment had a 60 odd Panthers and 103 Panzer IV’s. It’s Panzerjager unit had Stug III’s so in AFV’s it isn’t bristling with new stuff. 116th had more Panthers at around 70. 9th and 10th SS had no Panthers at all in Normandy whilst the army units 2nd and Lehr did (Lehr also had organic King Tigers which no SS Division did).
On D Day the of the 6 battalions of Panzer Grenadiers in 1st SS only one had half tracks around 30 odd in the whole unit, 116th Panzer had 163 and it only had one Grenadier Regiment 1st SS had two. On the 1st of july it only had 1100 lorries out of a book strength of over 3000.
I could quote more and more, do I need too, forget Beevor and look at primary sources which are available on the web.
You right and i don’t want to doubt your knowledges.
The period that Beevor wrote was since jenuary 1945 when Himler was charged to a command of AGV.
So he pretty well and fascinating described the scenes when the top Nacis bosses competed and intrigued with each other for Hitler’s favour .The Himler hated the Goering, but colloborated with Goebbels against alliance Borman-Kalterbrunner.
The Beevor very fascinating tells about last days of war in Bunker.
He , for instance , describe the such scene :
“When the questions about the distribution of new wearpon for newly formed division rised - almost all the wearpon were exclusively distributed among the SS( Himler) and Luftwaffe ( Goering). It’s amazing - how the Wermach got the something”
The same point advocated the Heinz Guderian in his famous " Solder’s recollections"
He wrote
двойственная политика Гитлера и Гиммлера поставила после войны войска СС в крайне неприятное положение, так как им начали ставить в упрек промахи остальных частей СС и особенно полицейских отрядов службы безопасности. Уже во время войны беспрерывное предпочтение войскам СС при выделении им резерва и определении его силы, при вооружении и оснащении вызывало справедливое негодование в менее счастливых соединениях сухопутных войск. И если чувство товарищества на фронте стояло выше такой несправедливости, то это только благодаря самоотверженности германского солдата, который оставался одним и тем же независимо от того, какого цвета носил он мундир
Double-standard policy of Hitler and Himmler to SS , has been cleared when during the war the SS always had an “exclisive” right to get the reserves , wearpon and ammunition. This situation called the justly indignation among the other Wermacht units.
SO as you might see not only Beevor advocated that point.
Even the Mainstain in his memours “Lost battles” complained to infamous situation when SS always use the primary right to be the rearmed and restored.
As for the cobblers about all SS being volunteers it just isn’t true, members of my favour 31st were conscripted into the SS as were plenty of others, do you regard the army soldiers transferred into 36th SS Dirlewanger as willing volunteers I doubt it or the 2000 Luftwaffe ground crew who joined 1st SS in 1944 before the Ardennes need I go on.
I heard that in chaos of last month the some of conscripts have been “recruited” to SS( mostly due the stupid tactic of Himmler - to form the new divisions instead to restore the old once). Besides he continie to increase his “personal army”( SS) , sending here the new and better resourses and mens, leaving the rest Wermacht on hunger “ration”.
But i know for sure that hte absolute MOST of SS soldiers were voluntaries , including the scums from Dirlevanger of infamous Kaminski brigade.
Actually there can be if i put you into a camp of forced labor and latter because of the poor conditions you can’t work more i simply eliminate you and the next prisoner come . That was what the nazis did in their camps as well as the soviets in the GULAGs because their ideology was based that if you are in the list of the "enemies " of the people , of the ideology , you for some reason are against the leader then you have to be in the camp work as slave and be eliminated after time .
Amon Goth
3rd SS Division Totenkopf
Superb fighting skill ever seen in battle.
You’re talking about ‘Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler’ ?