It would be funny, except when this kind of messy conspirations end tragically, for example with a first lady’s dress stained with the President blood.
Just in case, do you know which brand was used to anticipate in 1923 the japanesse misbehavior with China in 1937? For sure it was an Apple, they are always one step ahead when it comes to abrogations.
Your comment displays a disturbing ignorance of the, I would have thought by now well known, Worth-Madge Diner Incident which by itself would have brought Nixon down except it came to light only during the much more devastating Watergate affair.
It ranks with Teddy Kennedy’s Chappaquid**** (this rude word filter is ****ing stupid) Incident in the annals of deplorable conduct by American politicians.
Kilroy was there, but the conspiracy to protect Nixon ensured that nobody heard what Kilroy had to say. It is strongly rumored that Kilroy had his fingers busted so that they ended up like claws holding onto a wall for the rest of his life.
You seem to think that this is funny.
If you delve into history you will find that many nations devoted great resources to Ouija boards and based their national defences upon it.
For example, around 1923 Monsieur Gallard, formerly a colonel in the French Army intelligence department, received a message on his army issued conseil d’ouija, or what we would call a Ouija board, which said that any future German attack would come around the area subsequently known as the Maginot line. His report on this is at www.conseil.d’ouijamaginot . It was ignored by the French General Staff and the rest is history.
Or you could just point us to the bits in the 14 part message or any other document that say (a) war was coming and (b) PH was a target, never mind the date and time.
Ouija boards have become passe’ dowsing is the method presently favored for use by most governmental entities world wide.
“In modern times dowsing is used for hundreds of things other than finding water. The U.S. military had a dowser teach the marines how to find land mines and underground tunnels of the Viet Cong. Vernon Cameron, a dowser, told Navy officials, where all the U.S. and other submarines were located by map dowsing. They would not confirm or deny his findings, but a few years later he was denied a passport because he was considered a security risk.”
Wrong decade Sunshine, but in any event it is said to be common knowledge that JFK was removed by agents for Onassis in order to possess Jackie K. and take her to wife. With so many other nations, and other “interests” having a grudge against the U.S. and JFK personally, it would be an easy matter to conceal his actions in the matter. This may be a genetic predilection, as similar spousal thefts are not unknown in Greek history . (Theseus of Greece first abducted Helen of troy when she was 12)
It wasn’t a swindle to the extent that the Bush Admin (and most everyone else) genuinely BELIEVED Iraq had WMDs. It certainly, like the attack on Pearl Harbor, was an intelligence failure of the first magnitude and so-called evidence was politically influenced and fixed to create an aura of an “open-and-shut-case” type mentality. But in fact it was the NSA that intercepted Iraqi military traffic that was a deception designed to fool the Iranians into believing that the Iraqi Army could deliver poison gas in the event of an Iranian attack–yet the Hussein regime was (truthfully) telling the West that there were no usable stockpiles of chems. It was this deception designed to deter the Iranians that ultimately did the Baathists in…
It seems that you are into every single detail on conspiracies, would you tell us something about that lady ( not the first I think) that got her dress stained too, but with some other presidential’s fluid,
and why the secret service failed in removing it opportunely?
Not much conspiracy there, just a Gold Digger who got lucky. (if you can call that lucky) If she had tried to blackmail the President, I think he would have just laughed in her face. (Besides, how do you know the Secret Service didnt make sure it wasnt removed?)
That’s a disturbing thought…yeah, maybe it was a plot from the latex industry moguls against the Logistic Department at the White House for not supplying the Gold Diger with their high tech devices.
The messages that I referred to that don’t exist are the intercepted and decrypted radio messages that Stinnett claims referred to an attack on Pearl Harbor. Budiansky may “affirm” that Stinnett “misquoted” some radio messages to give the impression that they did contain references to a Pearl Harbor attack, but this is the same as saying that Stinnett is lying, and the messages as quoted by Stinnett, do not exist.
The Japanese were extremely careful about communications security when it came to planning the Pearl Harbor attack. The Japanese records of the the planning process were all destroyed at the end of the war, but surviving Japanese officers involved in the PH planning process were unanimous in claiming that no radio messages were ever sent from either IGHQ or Combined Fleet to the PH strike force prior to it’s departure; couriers or secure land-lines were used to transmit orders. It does not make much sense for the Japanese to enforce radio-silence to the point of removing the transmitter keys from the radios on the PH-bound ships, but allowing the Combined Fleet HQ to radio the PH strike force orders blabbing about it’s target.
The original characterization may assume that all Americans thought (or behaved alike) but my statement does not. It is safe to say that most Americans wished to stay out of the European war, not because they were “lazy”, but because they viewed it as a European problem best resolved by the Europeans themselves. I am well aware that there were Americans fighting in the European war; one of the witnesses at the PH hearings was a USMCR pilot who had served in the US Navy, the US Marines, the RAF, and the Royal Navy, and was advising as an expert in fighter-direction and radar-directed air defense at the time PH was attacked. My own father served in the US Navy as a carrier pilot in the late 1930’s and did time on the so-called Neutrality Patrol, which, despite it’s name, produced US casualties well before PH.
It would depend on when it was intercepted and decrypted. If I recall correctly, the message was actually sent some time in advance of the PH attack, and was decrypted by US intelligence even before the Japanese diplomats were able to decipher it. Secretary Hull and Roosevelt were aware of the contents before the note was delivered by the Japanese ambassador. If the note had revealed anything at all about PH, which it didn’t, it would have been just barely possible to give Kimmel and Short perhaps an hour or two warning. If that had been the case, at least the Army could have had it’s fighters up and it’s AA batteries manned and the Navy ships, even if they had not been able to get up sufficient steam to put to sea, would still have all their guns manned and their WT doors closed. Under those conditions, the Japanese would have been able to cause much less damage, and would have paid a much higher price for the attack.
Which is the major problem in expecting PH to be ready, and in criticising Kimmel et al for not being ready for something they had no forewarning of and about which nobody could reasonably be expected to have forewarned them.
I don’t know enough about the details of such readiness, but in a peacetime army and navy, albeit ones facing a remote risk of war, what would be the times on any day which seemed like a drill and even worse early on a Sunday morning involved in fuelling, arming and launching planes and manning naval and land-based guns and supplying them with live ammunition with orders to fire it?
I have a suspicion that bureacracy could have overwhelmed any warning of an hour or two as various people in the chain demanded authorisations to supply this and start up that.
Not really. Both Kimmel and Short were the commanders of their respective service’s facilities and bases on Oahu, and as such jointly, responsible for the defense of those bases and facilities against any possible attack.
And it’s certainly NOT true they had no “forewarning” of the possibility of just such an attack as the Japanese actually launched. There were numerous reasons to believe that a carrier attack was not only possible, but the most likely form of attack, including naval exercises in which US Navy forces launched mock surprise attacks on Pearl Harbor. There was also a report issued in 1941 by a US naval officer which described a carrier attack by Japan on PH remarkably similar to the one that actually eventuated. It was certainly NOT reasonable to believe that a carrier attack on PH was out of the question.
As for being warned of the possibility of war with Japan, Kimmel and Short would have as much warning simply by reading the newspapers as they would have gleaned from reading Japan’s 14-part message. The reality is that Kimmel and Short let themselves be lulled into lassitude by the belief that any Japanese attack was going to fall first on the Philippines. If Washington shares any complicity in the disaster at PH, it is in letting, perhaps even encouraging, Kimmel and Short to entertain that belief.
Well, it will forever remain speculation, but just extrapolating from what did happen, it seems reasonable to me to conclude that PH’s defenses would have been much more effective.
It is recorded that every naval ship at PH was able to open fire on the enemy within five minutes of the opening of the attack. It takes only a few minutes to close and secure all WT doors on a naval vessel, so with a couple hours warning that almost certainly would have been done and the ship’s AA batteries would have been manned and ready with a supply of ammo at hand.
The summoning of land-based air defenses is more problematical. I do not know how long it would take to arm and fuel fighter planes or find pilots for them, but I do know that a small number of US planes did get into the air with no warning at all, so two hours warning, it would seem to me, would give sufficient time to get many more into the sky. The manning of Army AA batteries probably would take longer but would not be impossible given two or more hours warning. As I understand it, some Army 37 MM batteries were manned and ready about two hours after the attack opened (just as the last wave of attackers was retiring), so a two hour warning should have found those guns ready to fire just as the attackers came in.
The Japanese lost 29 planes shot down over PH and an additional 20 returned but damaged beyond repair, as it was, so more US planes in the air, manned and ready AA batteries, and some dispersal of aircraft either on the ground or in the air would definitely render the attack less damaging and more costly. I don’t think it’s implausible that the Japanese might have lost twice as many planes, say perhaps 100, as they actually did, and been able to destroy far fewer US aircraft. How many ships they would have been able to sink or damage is really more difficult to speculate on because it really depends on random factors.