Their whole bloody education system and their foreign policy and their national self delusion has been based on it for the past sixty years.
Nobody wants them to be responsible for all the evil in Asia.
Just the evil they did.
They can’t face up to it, but they still bleat about being nuked as if it was some evil that came out of a clear blue sky because of the evil Americans, unlike Pearl Harbor that really was something that came out a clear blue sky because the Japs won a great victory with a sneak attack without declaring war but they’re shitty that they lacked the defences to prevent being nuked long after the war they started was about to finished on terms they didn’t like.
The problem is in modern Japan, in elements of the ruling elite. Nowhere else. Just like the root causes of the evils they can’t admit.
It’s a problem in the national character, at least as far as the dominant elements go.
And Chevan, no - “special training” is not required to be a historian. But the problem with self-trained historians is that they often have an agenda, lack perspective, and selectively conduct research as a means to an end that is often premeditated. At least, this is the case with Irving…
And Rising Sun as aptly put the case against the Japanese gov’t, and society at large, living in revision-land…
How would you feel if the current German government denied ever having massacred Russian villagers or POWs?
And who do not deny its guilt mate?
Mabe the allies who made the fireholocaust for the Japs cities- do thy deny its guilt. Sure;)
We ONLY heard that the “a-bombing was nessesary” and other nonsense from the officials.
Were somebody punished for the such cruel strategical actions?
Noway. Moreover all the involved hight officers were awarded.
At the same time the most of Japs military staff were executed after the tribunal…
Its remind me the soviet position- they blamed the Nazy in every crime, but ffogot about soviets crimes toward the other nations.
Um, but your forgetting the fact that the A-bomb and firebombing topics are freely discussed in the West, whereas the Japanese completely deny their genocide committed in China - a nation that suffered almost as many deaths as did in the USSR…
Well the self-trained historian at least independent and could study the matter more or less objectively my friend.
But do not even tall me that the so called "offcial historians’ who studied the history through the “winner morale” HAVE no AGENDA;)
Especially the historians of jewish origin who study the Holocaus.
Could you provide a guarantees that they do not selectively conduct research ?
Especially when they look for the events through the “moral guilt of mankind” before the jews.
I/m not , however this is not mean that i should ignore thier point- i have to analyse it.
i will tell them thay are premeditated- i have to respect their oppinion.
BUT their ( and your) agressive arrogance towad the Irving who 30 years studied the Third reich history bother me.
I’m not literally believe him, certainly he could be mistaken like and any other man. But his point of studying the Events of ww2 ( from OTHER side- Germans ) is very interesting.
You are as the former teacher should know that the most effective scientific method to stady the any matter - is the fight of the different opinion.
Sometimes the most crazy and unbeliveable teories ( as it was for instance the theory of Relativity or Quantum’s in physyc) could EFFECTIVELY forced the science forward.
In any other way the science would degrade to Dogma - it’s deadlock way.
We often observe today with the ww2 history- through the winer point of the GOOD/EVIL side.
Besides the Holocaus theory that transformed today to the Religion with the magical figure of 6 mln as the absolute irrational true.And like and OLD dark midle ages times - the peoples go to the prisons for deny of the religion . Is this not funny Nick?
How would you feel if the current German government denied ever having massacred Russian villagers or POWs?
And what would happen mate?
May be you don’t know BUT they ALREADY do it. Not Germans but Baltic SS veterans.
They speaks that they not massacre the Russians ( and also Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish and own baltic villigase) and POWs.
They fought ONLY with Red Army for independence.
There were No killing the low races, no massacre the own civil "communists’, no deportation- just sacred fight.
And what do yo think -armageddon happens?
No the president Bush has arrived and congratulate them all for the “progress of democraty”.
Welcome to the real revision-land Nick.
That’s sad moral.
Nick they not 'completely deny the genocide in China- they just tells that the chinas figures are very overestimated ( like and we refused some of Nazy propogandic fugures of victims of firebombing in Germany, don’t we?).
For instance as the Rising Sun wrote the Japane tell about 20 000 of victims in Nankin- to the contrast the China’s tell about ten times more.
And why we have to believe Chinas-simply coz the Japan fought against us?
And BTW why do you think that in the Japane there is no OTHER oppinion about the a-bombing except the critical anti-american?
I/m not sure- we here have no the any one Japane member ( this sad fact IMO) however i think you are not correct saing thet they all deny the their henocide.
All historians have a subliminal bias. But that does not extend to Irving’s outright lies and semantic games when it comes to revising the brutal nature of a fascist regime. One he appears to have high, sentimental regards for.
Real historians get their facts right and let that lead toward conclusions whereas Irving has made conclusions and fit the “facts” toward those ends. There’s a big difference…
And I’d remind you that most historians that study WWII, and the Holocaust by default, are not Jewish yet seem to reach more or less the same conclusion, that at least six million Jews were murdered…
And the people, the biggest Holocaust deniers throwing out red herrings posed as “the scientific method” are not scientists and mostly have little specific training in the arguments they employ towards the end of denial and ultimately apologism…
And what would happen mate?
May be you don’t know BUT they ALREADY do it. Not Germans but Baltic SS veterans.
You know that is not the same for reason’s I won’t bother to explain. German is a powerful Euro nation whereas you’re worried about extremist anti-Russian fringe that pose no threat to anyone…
They speaks that they not massacre the Russians ( and also Ukrainian, Belorussian, Polish and own baltic villigase) and POWs.
They fought ONLY with Red Army for independence.
There were No killing the low races, no massacre the own civil "communists’, no deportation- just sacred fight.
And what do yo think -armageddon happens?
No the president Bush has arrived and congratulate them all for the “progress of democraty”.
Welcome to the real revision-land Nick.
That’s sad moral.
I have no idea what you’re trying to say. You lost me…
But in any case, there are CLEAR differences in the way post-war Germany and Japan approach their past histories and the contexts of their actions. In the 1990s for instance, there was a controversial exhibit of photographs in Germany that showed members of the regular Wehrmacht performing atrocities, not the SS as they had often been solely attributed too. This caused a stir, but also a realization…
Can you help me with what is the official Japanese numbers for the directly killed in Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
But I need an official Japanese number. The one Japanese officials use at the commemoration day.
Right. I see what you mean. The thing is that I am talking to one guy who put numbers for the bombardment victims like this:
Afganistan by USSR - 1 million
Russia in Caucasus - 75.000
Hiroshima - 66.000
Nagasaki - 33.000
Vietman by USA - <20.000
Well the Agganistan case seems to be a bit exhagerated, IMHO. But he claims it is a good estimate. But it is not the point. And he also kind of claimed that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki numbers are recognised by Japanese.
I sencerely doudt so. I beleive the official Japanese numbers for the immidiate explosion victims are Hiroshima - 140.000 (by the end 1945) Nagasaki - 75.000
Estimates of total deaths by the end of 1945 range from 90,000 to 140,000, due to burns, radiation, and subsequent disease, aggravated by lack of medical resources.[1][2][3] Some estimates state up to 200,000 may have died by 1950, due to cancer and other long-term effects.[2] The numbers for Nagasaki are consistently lower, because the valley terrain reduced the impact of the bomb, with immediate deaths estimates ranging from 40,000[4] to 75,000.[5] In both cities, the overwhelming majority of the deaths were civilians
That’s tells WIki about.
However the Japanse has own statistic.
The Japanes officials publically declared every year list of victims. It has became the political tradition already in Japane- Every year calculate the victims and critise the US military commans ( then farther - then more insolent)
http://news.flexcom.ru/world/2004/08/09/60975/
На памятной церемонии муниципалитет Нагасаки добавил в список жертв атомной бомбардировки имена еще 2707 человек, скончавшихся за минувший год. Общее количество жертв атомной бомбардировки Нагасаки теперь составляет 134 592 человека
…
In the ceremony of memory of Victims of Nagasaki the municipality in 2004 added 2707 . The overal victims of Nagasaki is 134 592.( incliding the whom died immediatelly since after explosison untill the 2004)
http://lenta.ru/world/2003/08/06/hiroshima/
Сразу после взрыва в Хиросиме погибли более 160 тысяч человек. Позже число погибших от его последствий выросло до 231920 человек.
immeiatelly after explosion were killed 160 000 in Hirosima . In 2003 the total figure of victims ( who died later) 231 920
So the Japanes tells about 130+230 = 360 000 victims of a-bombing and radiation consequences.
But this is ONLY flowers…
The berries are that the officially tells about 300 000+ of victims of Napalm firebombing ( among it about 100 000 of victims only in Tokio).
Thus the overal Japanes casualties is of Bombing compain close to the 700 000 of victims. This ever more then the victims of the firebombing of Germany in 1943-45.
Records of military personnel were destroyed, and entire families perished, leaving nobody to report the casualties. According to most estimates, the bombing of Hiroshima killed approximately 70,000 people due to immediate effects of the blast. Estimates of total deaths by the end of 1945 range from 90,000 to 140,000, due to burns, radiation, and subsequent disease, aggravated by lack of medical resources.[1][2][3] Some estimates state up to 200,000 may have died by 1950, due to cancer and other long-term effects.[2]
And I think one of the points here is that the Japanese political traditions reek of racist narcissism, since they could give a shit about the nearly 20 million Chinese that died…
So the Japanes tells about 130+230 = 360 000 victims of a-bombing and radiation consequences.
But this is ONLY flowers…
The berries are that the officially tells about 300 000+ of victims of Napalm firebombing ( among it about 100 000 of victims only in Tokio).
Again, they never seem to consider that anyone other than Japanese died in the war. They certainly don’t seem to care…
Thus the overal Japanes casualties is of Bombing compain close to the 700 000 of victims. This ever more then the victims of the firebombing of Germany in 1943-45.
Cheers.
An estimate that is probably high, but even if correct - as with all Axis nations, they suffered a death rate far below that in which they inflicted. Only a small fraction really…
It was 58,000+ dead, 300,000+ American wounded. after research The South Vietnamese ARVN lost between 185,000-225,000 dead while about 900,000 North Vietnamese and NLF combatants were killed. Estimates on their wounded are difficult to come by…
And between one and two million Vietnamese civilians on all sides perished…
First of all I was asking ONLY about the civilians that died directly of the enemy fire. This applies to all of the countries mentioned in my previous post (Afganistan, Vietnam, Hiroshima+Nagasaki). That guy says that USSR killed only by bombs 1 million civilians in Afganistan wheras USA killed less than 20.000 civilian vietnamese by their bombing raids.
TABLE A: Estimates of Casualties
Hiroshima Nagasaki
Population 255,000 195,000
Dead [b]66,000[/b] [b]39,000[/b]
[u]Injured 69,000 25,000[/u]
Total Casualties 135,000 64,000
I was in doubt that Japanese recognise these numbers as valid.
So the best of Japanese sources I found so far are these:
By 1945 in Japan every man, woman and child old enough to pick up a sharp stick were drafted into the militia and trained to fight. This made them enemy combatants. There were no civilians in Japan.
Yeah? Then the American boyscouts were also combatants. All the Soviet school pupils ( both males and females) had the lessons of military education, were even taught to shoot. You think they can be called combatants as well? After your logic there were no civilians in the Soviet Union either and therefore it had no civilian losses during WWII?
Picture yourself a GI invading Japan. You find yourself facing a bonsai charge of several hundred school children armed with pointed sticks. Are you telling me you’re not going to fire your weapon because they’re civilians? I think you would and after your weapon is empty and they’re all lying dead on the ground what are you going to say about that when you return home after the war? You’re going to say they stopped being civilians and became enemy combatants when they attacked you. You might even say they stopped being civilians when their government mobilized them into a militia and trained them to fight you. This was the delema facing US commanders. If Iwo, Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Okinawa, Saipan and the Philippines taught us anything it’s that the Japanese would fight to the last man, woman and child. For all we knew they were willing to face total extinction rather than surrender. Now you can confuse the issue with the Russians or the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts or what ever, but I’m sticking to it…there were no civilians left in Japan. The Japanese government saw to it.
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