Firebombing of japanese cities WW2

Nope. You’re going to reload :mrgreen:

It’s covered by the Geneva conventions - provided they carry their arms openly they’re legally combatants. However, it’s incorrect to say that everyone in Japan was mobilised - rather, the Japanese government was making attempts to mobilise the majority of the population (less the very young and very old). That’s a very different thing.

How many Japanese civilians were on Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal or Tarawa? Furthermore, a hell of a lot of Japanese civilians were captured on Okinawa. In fact, even 7,000 Japanese troops were captured - rather a lot for a bunch who would “fight to the last man, woman and child”.

Originally Posted by Corporal Punishment

Picture yourself a GI invading Japan. You find yourself facing a bonsai charge of several hundred school children armed with pointed sticks. Are you telling me you’re not going to fire your weapon because they’re civilians? I think you would and after your weapon is empty and they’re all lying dead on the ground what are you going to say about that when you return home after the war? You’re going to say they stopped being civilians and became enemy combatants when they attacked you. You might even say they stopped being civilians when their government mobilized them into a militia and trained them to fight you. This was the delema facing US commanders. If Iwo, Guadalcanal, Tarawa, Okinawa, Saipan and the Philippines taught us anything it’s that the Japanese would fight to the last man, woman and child. For all we knew they were willing to face total extinction rather than surrender. Now you can confuse the issue with the Russians or the Boy Scouts or the Girl Scouts or what ever, but I’m sticking to it…there were no civilians left in Japan. The Japanese government saw to it.

Several hundred school children armed with pointed sticks are not combatants. They are not the threat for an army unit armed with automatic rifles. Americans did not experience attacks on behalf of Japanese children and women during the war so the assumptions about their mass national-wide suicidal attack are the fruits of morbid imagination. The cases of some campaign of mass suicidal attacks of civilians are unknown in the world history, though there had been enough more militarised and phanatical societies than the Japanese.

They are if their trying to stab people with them. But then again, the evidence in the historical record indicates that Japanese children, or young teens rather, were being trained to suicidally attack US tanks using charges.

For the record, the Japanese home defense militia (I’m not going to bother to get the exact name - sorry, I’ve enough research for one day) was essentially comprised of every able bodied male above the age of 15, and girls and women between the ages of 17 and 45…

They are not the threat for an army unit armed with automatic rifles.

They are if you don’t shoot them…

Americans did not experience attacks on behalf of Japanese children and women during the war so the assumptions about their mass national-wide suicidal attack are the fruits of morbid imagination. The cases of some campaign of mass suicidal attacks of civilians are unknown in the world history, though there had been enough more militarised and phanatical societies than the Japanese.

Granted, there is some hyperbole here; but the US had yet to invade the home islands. And there is considerable evidence that exists that the IJ gov’t was ever willing to take extreme steps in order to inflict the most casualties it could in order to affect negotiations…

True. But there were also numerous mass suicides of entire families killing themselves rather than submit to the “barbarians” “rape” and “cannibalism”…

Rather ironic if you think about it…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtQ4oLCiMDo

LOL I wonder what their totals are for the Chinese killed in say the Rape of Nanjing? Is it 10,000? 15,000?

Would this be a small ambush ?

Indeed. A banzai of Bonsai would be comedic.

Conversely, a bonsai banzai would just be a small charge.

Daniel-san, come inside.

  • What’s that song you were singing?
  • Japanese blues.

Kampai.

Kampai.

Banzai!

To baby trees.

Not bonsai. Banzai!

Banzai.

Banzai!

  • Banzai!
  • Close enough.
    The Karate Kid (Film)

bonsai is type short tree,. that the grow being altered.:wink:

I don’t see how the B-36 was uninterceptible given the performance figures I have seen for the various models. There is nothing to suggest that it could not be intercepted given that its maximum speed and service ceiling were below that of Soviet fighters around prior to the MIG 17.

Ummm… two things at work here.

  1. The US systematically lied about the capabilities of the B-36 (and a number of more recent aircraft). It would typically be penetrating Soviet airspace at something like 10,000 ft above the book ceiling.
  2. It’s got awfully big wings and a lot of power. That actually means it’s incredibly manouverable compared to anything else in the sky at high altitude. This makes a hell of a lot of difference - for instance, at high altitude an Avro Vulcan could probably win a dogfight with an F-15. Of course, the catch in this case is that “high altitude” really is high - 50,000ft+.

You need some strong evidence to support your assertion that the figures are incorrect. Without such evidence you don’t have much of a case.

Why would the military care about releasing accurate figures for an aircraft that is not in service any longer and which has not been in service for a long time?

The contemporary Jet fighter has always the superiotiry over the piston-jet bomber:)
Even if to lose the 2-3 fighter per destruction of one Monstrous B-36 ( that costs at least as mush as 30-50 jet firghters and carry 20 mens of crew!!!) the economical damage would not be permissible.

The B-36 had jet engines as well as piston ones…

Speaking of how kiddies were trained to fight, a friend of mine from JPN who was a high or a middle schooler was taght to " lodge the sight-holes with dirt mixed with water. If you dont have water, use pee." They were also taught to stick magnetic bombs to shermans. I am dead serious.

Many of the later B-36s had jet engines added but it was a while before these entered service. A book I am currently reading on B-36s suggests that there were only a few B-36s in service before 1950.

Here is a thread off my site, it is titled B-29s Firebombing Japan, I hope this contributes to this thread:

In the Pacific, General Haywood Hansen’s XXI Bomber Command finally start their campaign against Japan on 14.11.1944. Unfortunately, their high altitude precision bombing tactics produced little results, mainly due to the unplanned encounter with powerful jet streams. Their first target, the Nakajima factory of Musashino, received minimal damage at best. The XXI Bomber Command continued to fine-tune their bombing techniques during December and January, however, their efforts were plagued by the jet stream, a high velocity wind that flows above Japan that’s well known by the host country, but little studied in the United States. Jet streams operated at nearly the same altitude the B-29s flew, usually between 27,000 to 33,000 feet. This pushed the fragile airframe as fast as 450 mph in ground speed and taxing the already unrefined engines, causing fires, multiple breakdowns and consuming too much fuel. What’s worse, despite multiple raids at high cost, their number one target, the Nakajima aircraft factory at Musashino-tama, just northwest of Tokyo, received minimal damage when the bombs scattered due to the fast jet stream winds.

On 3.1.1945, General Hansen sent his B-29s on their first firebombing mission against Nagoya, using the new M69 bombs, but he returned to conventional bombing over Musashino-tama again due to its high priority. Their efforts were beginning to improve a little but by then it was too late for General Hansen to prove his efforts. Washington sent General Curtis LeMay to replace him. On 20.1.1945, General LeMay took over the XXI Bomber Command. At first he followed General Hansen’s high altitude conventional bombing campaign with minimal results. The crew morale was at an all time low. Then in desperation, he took note from General Chennault’s design of firebombing at low altitude and ordered his gun crews to remove all guns, except for the tail defence, to increase the bomb load. The crews were shocked to hear about the new tactic, and LeMay took the responsibility of not informing USSAAF to perform this new daring night raid. At dusk of 9.3.1945m at least 334 B-29 bombers took off from Tinian, Saipan and Guam. Just before midnight, the pathfinders dropped their load of M47 napalm bombs over Tokyo, creating a target marking that looked like a giant “X” in flames for the rest of the bombers to follow.

They dropped mostly M69 incendiary bombs, which exploded at around 2000 feet altitude, spraying burning oil over the city. As the man-made firestorm reached thousands of degrees fahrenheit, some tried to escape toward the nearby Sumida river, but were either boiled alive or, if lucky, trampled to death. Those who escaped to air raid shelters were either killed by fire or suffocated to death when the firestorm sucked out all the oxygen. The nearby Kawaguchi river caught fire when the industrial pollution in the water ignited. The holocaust killed 83,793 and injured 40,918 mostly civilians by first official Japanese account. The worst mass killing day of the war. The Americans didn’t escape unscathed, 40 Japanese fighters, none equipped for night fighting, managed to get airborne during the chaos. With anti-aircraft guns blazing, they managed to damage 42 bombers. 14 B-29s were lost, but air-sea rescue saved 5 crews. 16 square miles of Tokyo were completely destroyed. General LeMay considered the new tactic successful and ordered more targets to be torched.

On the morning of 10.3, citizens near Tokyo thought they were seeing an unusually bright sunrise, what they found in horror is that they had just witnessed the worst single-day holocaust in human history. Not even the upcoming atomic bombing would have a higher one-day body count. In the Meiji-za theatre dead bodies stacked up eight feet high. In air raid shelters many died in upright position, squeezed by packed humans with no air to breathe. But for the Japanese, once the shock wore off, they were better prepared to face further raids. A night later, on 11/12.3.1945, 285 bombers were sent to Nagoya. Losing one bomber they burned 2 square miles of the city. Two nights later, 8 square miles of Osaka were torched. The city of Kobe was hit three nights after that, with 3 square miles being engulfed. With the total loss of 20 B-29s, LeMay’s bombers killed 120,000 civilians in less than two weeks. The B-29 Superfortress, designed as a high altitude precision bomber for military targets, turned out to be better at firebombing at low altitude over the cities. But the military targets were not left out.

While LeMay waited for his restock of incendiary bombs, he was ordered to use his B-29s to support the Okinawa invasion during April. This included striking the kamikaze airbases in Kyushu. On 5.5.1945 they tried to bomb from high altitude the naval base of Kure with minimal results, causing them to revert back to low-level firebombing at Nagoya again on 14.5. On 23.5 Tokyo was hit, but the casualties started to mount when 43 B-29s were lost during those two raids, including the famous one nicknamed “Eddie Allen” on the morning of 26.5. LeMay’s bombers destroyed 56 square miles by the end of the month but with heavier losses, he changed tactics back to high-altitude daylight bombings. Hiroshima was only two months away.

Troy
www.feldpost.tv

Totally justified and good for the war effort.

No PC BS here,
Brian