German SS outfit clothing

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#21

I see. However Harris was not that popular with some of his countrymen after the war, even these days as I learned.

I guess this “undefended” thing in the Hague Convention article didn’t include Flak-units (not sure about it though), which were the only actual fighting units in these towns.

You can hardly blame the front troops for the horrendous losses of russian POWs in the camps. If the front troops were really that disreputable, houndreds of thousands of russian POWs wouldn’t even have reached the camps.
As for the commisar order, several german high-ranking officers called upon Hitler to take this order back or at least to weaken it when it was published on June 6th 1941. It was finally nullified in May 1942 and in most cases ignored by the troops. Don’t wanna justify the order here, just adding an attempt of (shortened) explanation by german general Lothar Rendulic: The commisars were not subordinated to any commander in the field, they were beyond the military hierarchy and belonged to a central administration in Moscow meaning they had not a soldiers’ status. Still they were involved in the fightings which gave them the charakter of franctireurs.”

I am sure any decent (yes!) former Waffen-SS soldier would protest to be sinked to the level of an SD thug. The western allies had named individuals for the war crimes of the Waffen-SS as well, still the whole organisation was prohibited.

And why was that? Maybe cos the german troops encountered an opponent to follow the concerning rules and conventions.

I am sure he had a wonderful time there.


http://www.vikmo.ru/1m.html
Since one would be prosecuted if reenacting Waffen-SS units in Germany and reenacting NKVD in modern Russia is actually done (I suppose, it is a russian NKVD reenactor, also regarding the URL), this proves that ideological/political re-education worked on us germans but not on everybody (if ever attempted).

Right, but not because they’re the bad guys. The imperial stormtroopers simply had the “cooler” looks, just like Waffen-SS with their inventive camo patterns. No one wanted to be one of the tedious Rebel soldiers with their egg-shaped helmets, lol.

#22

My understanding of that section is that it dates back rather a long time, to the era of walled, defended cities - bombarding the city was seen as an acceptable alternative to storming it as a way of forcing surrender. Hence the restriction in the Hague convention - there was no military benefit to attacking an effectively undefended city in this way, so it was outlawed. Looked at in this way, if there were any opposing forces between your own and the city you were bombing (as there clearly were at the time of Hamburg/Dresden/Guernica) then the city counts as defended for the purposes of this passage. Remember Hague was 1908, at which time the Wright brothers had only just barely demonstrated that powered flight was practical - the diplomats writing the convention would not have thought of them as a practical weapon, so we’re left treating them as the closest thing they had thought of - artillery.

Large numbers didn’t - there are plenty of accounts of German troops (Wehrmacht and SS) taking potshots at passing columns. In any case, who ran the camps? Largely the Wehrmacht again.

A number did object to it and generally ignore it, which is greatly to their credit (as with the “Commando” order). Others however were enthusiastic in implementing it and assisting in the mass murder of Jews, etc. I’ll have a dig around later for some names if I remember.

Sounds like an ex post facto justification if ever I heard one. They were commanded by a person responsible for their subordinates, carried their arms openly and wore a fixed, distinctive sign recognisable from a distance. On that basis for much of the war the Waffen SS (which was also rarely commanded by the military heirachy, answering instead to Himmler and thorugh him to Hitler) would also count as francs tireurs. I suspect shooting all of them out of hand when captured would not fit your idea of justice (or indeed mine).

The relevance of course was to the level of proof required. The NKVD was in the area at the time up to various nefarious things, and a large number of Polish officers, etc. were murdered. Was their sufficient documentary/eyewitness evidence available to the western allies in 1945 to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that the NKVD had carried out these murders?

German atrocities in the east predate and surpass in size Russian atrocities against them. This strongly suggests that it doesn’t matter whether or not the Russians were following the Hague convention.

I doubt it, but it wouldn’t yet have been an extermination camp and he would almost certainly have not met Wehrmacht or Waffen SS in this time.

Yep, agreed.

What makes them “cool”? More interestingly, why did Lucas decide to make the bad guys look like that and the good guys not?

#23

Brief interposed question:
Why did I suddenly transform to “ChaosDefinesOrder”?

#24

I have no idea. Some form of freak copy-paste accident most likely (I tend to use Ctrl-V to put in the (quote=“billandbentheflowerpotmen”) bit at the front and type (/quote) at the end).

#25

So, no one is going to tell me what makes up a SS outfit or that of a german medic outfit?

#26

I’m sure it is no surprise that I agree with Flame on this. Every time that anyone mentions the Nuremberg Trials, I cringe. The Nuremberg Trials were a good example of justice gone hayward. While many of those given death sentences did deserve it, others didn’t. The whole process was so obviously flawed and biased that many of the sentences had to be reduced and many death sentences were overturned. In legal terms, any good lawyer in this day and age would have probably gotten many of the accused freed on matters of legalities and technicalities. But, the main issue at hand was the Waffen-SS.
I think that this was a great injustice to many soldiers who fought valiantly and honorably. If a Marine unit committed an atrocity in Vietnam, or if a unit committed atrocities in the Middle East, would the whole Marines be indicted and considered criminals? Of course not! To treat over a million men in such a way because some committed atrocities is unjustified and unfair. The fact that the whole SS and, as one of its branches, the Waffen SS was considered a criminal organization simply ignores the basic right of individuals to fair trial. It is actions like this that make many Germans resent the victors. Sound familiar? Those individuals who committed those horrible crimes, if alive, should have been tried and sentenced. But, to make everyone in the organization suffer from the actions of others…not justice!
But, then again, justice was far from blind then, especially if a German with not so good credentials was useful. Then, instead of sending them to prison, they were placed in some nice house in the US and given a job that many Americans would have considered a dream job. But, golly, let’s make every Waffen SS soldier a criminal! What hypocrisy!

And, SS Ouche-Vitte, I have some books that describe the uniforms and I believe that I have some sites bookmarked that have uniforms for sale (repros, for the most part). The reall SS uniforms are hard to come by and very, very expensive! If I find them, I’ll let you know.

#27

Right, SS Ouche-Vittes, look what you’ve perpetrated by that question! What was the original topic again? Oh yes, I remember:
Since the Waffen-SS uniforms have been this various especially in the late stage of the war, there are a lot of possibilities to that.

  • High leather boots or short boots with gaiters
  • Common field-gray trousers or camo trousers
  • Waffen-SS belt buckle, no mistaking with common Wehrmacht belt buckle
  • Most likely camo smock of any Waffen-SS camo pattern
  • M35 helmet with decals respectively M42 helmet without decal, camo helmet cover optional

Got to check out on the medic but that should be much less elaborate.

#28

Thanks for helping!! I’m not going to wear the distinguished features like the SS belt and swastika duh! I’m definitely getting the helmet cover
though. I was gona buy a authentic gas mask off ebay, but i lost the bid. It was sold for only like 40 dollars.:rolleyes:

Wtf LOL?:o

#29

Why don’t you just look here for a very good model of a german army medic. Although it’s only a model you’re able to see the specific equipment items.
http://www.dragonmodelsltd.com/html/70293%20p1.htm

#30

I must say you are a absolutely disgusting. I have read enough hatefilled propaganda in this topic to decide that I will not remain a member of these forums. You are insulting brave Waffen-SS men who fought for what’s right. Had they won the world would have been a far better place, without all of today’s decay and filth.

/SS-Kommando

#31

Don’t let the door hit you on the arse on the way out!

#32

I do not see anything wrong in - i’m refering to first posts of thread - in collecting a uniform and equipment of Waffen-SS. For me, German uniforms from WWII was one of best-looking and modern. Especially SS camo smocks. You see, i know a man who has collection of uniforms, Americans, British, Polish, Germans and Soviets. And i dont see anything wrong in it. Why you can have NKVD uniform without problem? They werent innocent too. And as Ptims said - if someone want to buy for himself Waffen-SS uniform, it doesnt mean, that he’s a Nazi or something. :wink:

And like i said in ‘hello thread’, mine group as that which reenact actual group which seized Waffen-SS warehouses on the first days of Warsaw Uprising and dress up in uniforms (not only camo smocks) and equipment, we do the same thing. Beside of having that smock (with white-red band), choosing the rest of equipment is free. For example: one of mine groupmate have only smock and cap of SS, rest is civil/pre-war uniform sets, and mine equipment and clothing is german in about 85%. :wink: Because i like it, it looks great. But i’m not going to wear Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS full uniform and equipment, with all insignia (even without them) because i know what is this, and what this unifom mean for my country.

This is history, we cannot change it :wink:

And sorry for mine poor English…

#33

SS Ouche- Vittes,
I sent you a couple of private messages with some links of places where you can order stuff from. Hope it helps.

Krad42

#34

SS Ouche-Vittes if you want i can give you couple of good photos of German’s medic reenactors

#35

Such explanation of Commisar Order is an empty excuse.
Besides I am not sure that it was “in most cases ignored by the troops”. By the way, according to the order the privats were not to execute Commiansars but to deliver them to the Wehrmacht officers which would either carry the order themselves or order it to be done by privates.

Besides according to some German exhortations to the troops ALL Soviet service men were presented as illegal fighters that unjustfully hold weapons in their arm.
I will dig the quote other day - too late now for that.

#36

If you don’t re-enact what are you planning to do with the “SS outfit” or “German medic outfit”?

(btw AFAIK German medics wore nothing different in uniform to other soldiers. To do so would make them standout to snipers.)

#37

Not my explanation, just citing the last named general.

Not my declaration either but by people who had actually been on the eastern front - in contrary to you and me. I saw an interview once with a former lower ranking german officer on this issue in a documentary: “It all depended on the commander of the unit. If he was a scumbag the order was carried out, if he was a decent guy the commissars lived.”
BTW, I remember reading there was a certain number of russian soldiers that got rid of their commissars on their own initiative. Especially units that decided to surrender to the germans.

Wrong, the captured commissars had to be turned over to the “Einsatzgruppen” of the SD. Remaining under Wehrmacht command area would have been the lesser of two evils for them.

Please do, I am anxious to read that one!

#38

Jesus christ!!!

#39

If there really was not much difference than East Germany would not have any population left…

#40

Except Germany invaded “Russian” first…