Glorification of Nazism

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#61

I always find it amusing to read about how the majority of those brave SS men had no knowlege of the extermination camps. In every army there is a secondry ( unofficial) information service in the the US Army it was ( and possibly still is ) called scuttle butt, We called it Bush Telegraph. It was the route by which information was passed by word of mouth from man to man and Reg to Reg. This system has existed as for long as Armies have.

The speed at which gossip travels depends on the quality of communications, these days it can be as little as a few hours, During WW2 it may have taken weeks or months but don’t kid yourself the news traveled.

To suggest that there where members of the SS who had not heard the rumours, met or knew of someone acually involved in either the Final Solution or opperational attrocities is utter bollocks.

For those of you without military experience or too young, find someone who is or has served in the military( not the SS ) ask about the above, then draw your own conclusions.

I’m sorry for those members with relitives who served in the SS and hold on to the belief that grandpa had no idea what was going on but it would have required thousands of people to keep a secret and that just does’nt happen.

#62

well, the wermarcht and waffen-ss soldiers were shown news reals of “nice concentration camps”.
in any event, what does this have to do with the actions of the armed ss or heer? What could one do if they heard the rumors?
are soldiers going to defy their government to pursue their responsibility to humanity by committing high treason?

my grandfather did hear rumors, but he doubted them as enemy propoganda. His division had no personnell from concentration camp and anti-partisan units, so he was not sure.

#63

The SS was what it was, a killing machine. Regardless of individual service a member of the SS from front line combat to rear echelon paper pushers where SS. They therefore carry the responsibility for the actions of their commrades. The passage of time does not mitigate the crime or the group responsibility of the organisation involved.
The Isrealies do not differentiate between SS units for the crime commited to their race.
Try putting things into a modern context. Lindy Englands happy snaps of abuse of prisoners in Iraq encouraged other Iraq’s to attack US forces. They did not single out other members of her National Guard unit they attacked the first American target they found. Guilt by association, we would all do the same, if you lost someone close in the current conflict would you would understand.
Every member of the SS has to take responsibility for the actions of their organisation as every member ascribed to their doctrine and would have carried out order given.
If you dissagree please post a link that shows a significant nimber of SS troops refusing orders to carry out an artocity.

#64

I agree that a lot fo the SS was an atrocity machine. but the SS weren’t all soldiers, as i said in other threads, 2 million served in the SS, 950,000 of these men served in the waffen-ss.

so your saying guilt by association?

guilty because your SS-panzergrenadier tunic looks similiar to the one worn by Ezantzgruppen genocide teams even though you and your men have not done such crimes and were not trained or instructed to do so?

10 out of 38 ss units have evidence of war crimes, big or smaller.

6 of them, concentration camp units and anti-parisan units, have been constantly commiting crimes.

The other 4 have commited crimes, but have court-martialed violators and do not have a consistent record.

The rest were not involved in genocide and crimes. in fact their records are as " clean" as under military justice as heer divisions.

After the war, the german army heer officers placed the blame of all the crimes committed by the heer onto the Waffen-ss. the waffen-ss became the scapegoat to let heer war criminals go free. The heer was depicted as “nationalist germans” rather then “Nazi germans”, when the destinction between the waffen-ss and the heer was more related to the costume and association worn.

#65

Guilty by the fact that they routinely murdered POWs on all fronts (British POWs in 1940, Soviets from 1941 to 1945, Brits and US in 1944/45).

Guilty by the fact that thousands upon thousands of Polish and Soviet civillians were murdered by the Waffen SS.

Guilty by the fact that the Waffen SS supplied some of the units to put down the Warsaw uprising, and we all know how brutal that was.

I don’t believe for one moment that every member of the SS didn’t know about the camps. Even if they didn’t serve there themselves, there were plenty of postings from the Waffen SS to the camps and back, while most of the SS divisions rotated through as guard force for the camps. There’s no way the bush telegraph could have kept quiet about the atrocities.

#66

allies and russian soldiers murdered german pows on all fronts too. in similiar scale.

For every Caen massacre you have US 11th armored atrocities.

and warsaw unrising was stopped by anti-paritson divisions that were instructed and trained to commit attrocities.

#67

Really? 12,000 German prisoners were left in a barbed wire compound with enough food for 2,000, no shelter in the middle of -35C temperatures and then if they ran for their food, shot dead to encourage the others to queue properly?

Maybe by the Soviets, but if you can find any evidence of WIDESPREAD atrocities against German POWs by the British or US armies, I’ll show my arse in Littlewoods window.

#68

this is a re-post

From “Parachute Infantry” by David Kenyon Webster (on D-Day in HQ Company, 2d Battalion, 506 PIR, 101st Airborne), p. 21:

“Above all, kill 'em! We can’t be dragging a lot of prisoners around with us at night.” (Said by a captain during the briefing for D-Day.

From “Band of Brothers” by Stephen Ambrose, p. 73:

“[General] Taylor told Malarkey’s platoon to fight with knives until daylight, ‘and don’t take any prisoners.’”

For examples, read Max Hastings’ “Armageddon”, where instances of US soldiers (and Brits and Canadians) routinely killing Germans after they had surrendered were commonplace, as well as Germans killing Allies. The Allies weren’t above committing massacres themselves. From “Armageddon”, p. 101:

“Some sixty German PoWs were killed by the 11th Armored Division, new to combat, whose men believed for some hours that they were not supposed to take prisoners. Patton wrote in his diary of ‘some more unfortunate incidents in the shooting of prisoners. (I hope we can conceal this)’.”

Covering up atrocities wasn’t anything new to Patton; during the Italian campaign in 1943, units from the 45th Infantry Division committed several massacres of German and Italian PoWs. The investigations were stopped by Patton…

SS-Brigadeführer Kurt Meyer (12th SS Hiterjugend) whose unit - the 25th Panzer Grenadier Regiment - was involved in a number of PoW executions in the days that followed D-Day. After the war, Meyer was courtmartialed for war crimes in relation to these PoW killings. He was originally sentenced to death, then commuted to life imprisonment, then reduced to 14 years with time off for good behaviour, then released in 1954. Meyer died in 1961 and on the occasion of his death, Maj-General Harry Foster, who presided over Meyer’s court martial, had this to say to his son Tony:

I asked if there had ever been any doubt in his mind of Meyer’s guilt.
“Not the slightest. He was just as guilty of murder as I was at the time… or any other senior officer in the field during a battle. The difference between us was that I was on the winning side. That makes a big difference.”
Had the courtmartial been a sham then? Vindictiveness by the victor over the vanquished?
“I don’t believe Meyer pulled the trigger on his captives or gave orders to execute any of them. But I’m sure he knew what happened. SS discipline was such that he couldn’t help but know. But does that make him guilty of murder anymore than I’m guilty for knowing about the German prisoners my troops killed?”
“Then why did you convict him?”
“Because I had no choice according to those rules of warfare dreamt up by a bunch of bloody barrackroom lawyers who never heard a shot fired in anger. In wartime a commanding officer is responsible for the actions of his men.”
“But that’s absurd!”
“It’s also military justice.”
“Then where is the truth?”
“Ah! I suppose in the final analysis it lies in the conscience of the victor.” (From the book “Meeting of Generals” by Tony Foster.)

#69

I suppose you would have to be Jewish to understand. Dont forget that the fact that your grandfather was SS would get you into any Neo Nazi group of your choice. Of course your not that dumb but other are.
You are an American look at the achevements of the US forces during world war 2 and celibrate those, they are deserving of your addmiration.
The SS was what it was root and branch the ideology was the same, in simpler terms how many Jews served with the SS the answer is non because it was a racist organisation. Do you have any Jewish , Gay or Disabled friends, if so think on this they where all oven fodder to the ideology of the SS organisation.
To the SS there was only one type of Jew, Gay, disabled person and they where not tolerated. Logically the SS can only be viwed in similar terms.
I’m guessing that you are in your teens, trust me as you grow up your opinion will change

#70

a blood dimmed tide: battle of the bulge by men who fought it pg. 475

“Patton speech was read verbatim and recited: " When we land against the enemy, don’t forget to hit him and hit him hard.We will bring the fight home to him.We will show him no mercy. When you meet the enemy, you will kill him. He has killed thousands of your comardes, and he must die. If your company officers in leading your men against the enemy and find him shooting at you, and, when you get within 200 yards of him he wishes to surrender, hell no! That bastard will die. You will kill him. Stick him between the third and fourth ribs. you will tell your men that. They must have killer instinct. Telll them to stick him. We will get the names of the killers and killers are immortal. when word reaches him that he is faced with a killer battalion, a killer outfit, he will fight less. Particularily, we must build up that name as killers and you will get that down in time for the Sicily invasion.”

(an american capt. stands trial for war crimes)

“Other men supported the captain, and the attitude of “take no prisoners” from the brass. And the defendant summarized his position " I ordered them shot because it came from the generals instructions.”

“the court aquitted the captain.”

if that captain was a german, he would be a dead man or with a very long prison sentence.

#71

First of all, I am a college student, and too self-educated to party with neo-nazi scum. I do respect the achievements of my country, and i am a american of german blood.

if its a question of racism, racism is everywhere, and strongly in america. even the most mild of personalities can harbor african-american racism. IE , many people I know harbor anti-black sentiments. But are they going to act on it? Are they going to splurt out racist remarks and kill black peopel? One can beleve in a certain ideal, but will he have the balls to act to corroborate it?

#72

Ironic that you would never mix with neo-Nazi scum, yet think that some of the SS were alright.

#73

Not really.

Your talking about a bayonet charge where by defininition every one has to be aggressive. I don’t know for sure but everyone probably wants to surrender just before the steel goes in.

I don’t know of any German soldier sentenced to death for a bayonet charge.

On the otherhand leading captured soldiers into a barn, and then killing them with hand grenades and raking the barn with machine gun fire, now that is seen as not playing by the rules.

As is killing babies, grannies, mothers, fathers etc, just because your crackpot regime has decided that they are sub-human, enemies of the state, etc.

#74

Its the youngters, the new generations that are decieved by movies, memorabillia, games on how powerful the Germans were… some look back at Second World War history as something amazing that happened…its quite disturbing. :?

#75

a blood dimmed tide, pg,474

"In the europeon theater, even though there were substantial rumors of mass murders and atrocities by the Allies, only one case was documented. On july 14, 1843, after a fight for the control of an airfield neear biscari, sicily, several dozen Italians and GErmans were shot down after they surrendered. "

"A chaplain who served American soldiers in the vicinity claimed that many compalined to him against the treatment of (german) prisoners and said they would not care to continue fighting if such brutal treatment continued. "

#76

most native german or austian waffen-ss soldiers were german nationalists or conscripts, first and foremost.

some of the portion of the volunteers were fervent national socialists, while the others were indifferent to the ideology but supported germany’s survival.

Most of other half of the waffen-ss, foreigners, were fervent anti-communists.

#77

The SS was an all volunteer organisation, certainly for the first few years. They had very stringent regulations on who could get in and who couldn’t and a lot of applicants didn’t make the grade.

#78

this is another re-post

I agree that the majority of the waffen-ss were “NAZI” soldiers in the early war stage. 1939-1941. the waffen-ss were composed of just 3 divisions, around only 55,000 men.

the waffen-ss, in early war, was considered a select organization, (ie, you had to be at least above average height, racially pure, etc,etc,.) of only pure Germans, preferrably part of the nazi party.

the bloody battles in the early war-mid war stage killed off practically all the orginal SS-men. The orginal contingent of the 1st SS division had only a dozen survivors out of the orginal 22,000 men by the end of the war.

THen, the organization changed , in mid-war to late-war times. The organization expanded to 38 units, with more then half of the soliders being foreigners. The “racial, ideological” requirements were relaxed, as russians, ukranians, japanese, italians, etc. were part of this army. Majority were conscripted/transferred.

the main purpose of the enlistment propoganda abandoned the orgninal nazi principles and the whole thing became" join us, whatever race, and help us defeat the communist hordes from destroying europe!"

#79

The Russians !???

#80

RONA -Russian People’s liberation army. (fervent russian anti-communists) composed 29th waffen-ss grenadier division . anti-partisan unit, very atrocity prone.

and, if your wondering, a battalion of japanese volunteers were attached to 16th SS in Italy.