I’m with Bluffcove on that one General
No. Another misinterpretation.[/quote]
Hmmmm, looks like I’ve got a week of peace then.
No. Another misinterpretation.[/quote]
Hmmmm, looks like I’ve got a week of peace then.[/quote]
IRONMAN thats sad…all you had to do it STFU in here.
IRONMAN,WHEN YOU COME BACK,I HOPE YOU WILL NEVER BE THE SAME DISCRIMINATOR.
POST WISELY,DON´T BE JERK
What the hell? Ironman you’ve gone way too far on this one. You have clearly showed us that you are anti-muslim.
IRONMAN:
and…There go the toys from the Pram
General,
Your post matched exactly with my copy of the Qur’an.
I really can’t be bothered to make the effort to explain the subtleties of difference between unbeleivers and disbeleivers to someone who thinks inveterate and invertebrate mean the same thing.
[4:101] “The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.”
Ooops! Christians are the spineless enemy of Muslims!
I won’t post further on this matter until you permit.
[4:101] “The unbelievers are your inveterate foe.”
Ooops! Christians are the spineless enemy of Muslims!
Oh the Joys!
I think he is just illiterate - Notice his use of perspective and respective in the M1carbine thread!
Well, that made me smile and it gets me out of the dilemma of how to announce that I won’t post here either, without then posting to say so.
Anyway, I’m off to a secret location for a week. If you really want to know, it’s not Brize, but there are lots of big planes. That should give it away without breaching PERSEC (do student officers even have PERSEC? It’s not like they are even convincing at being military). I might even try to use my site rank to boss a Regiment Gunner around. After all, I’m a Sergeant Major now and I could do with the exercise.
Have just read all the latest. Thank you general for at least trying to bring Iron man to his senses. Alas it failed, however Im looking forward to a week without bigotry.
Yes Firefly, it’ll be a welcome change.
I had thought, that he could have been brought round by discussion, but on reflection it was a folorn hope !
I hope that not too many visitors have formed an unfortunate view of the site, though the comments of every other poster on the thread has shown that this is most definitely not a place for xenophobes and racists.
Hopefully it can be seen that, use one of the troll’s own words, we do not tolerate ‘hatemongers’ !
on page 5 of this thread before the Racist party got up to speed there was a reference to “fourth Generation war”
This I presume is the fourth battleground, after the Land Sea and Air.
I was wondering whether this really is a a “new” battleground or as certain parties seem to feel it has always been a part of war.
I think that It has always been aprt of war but has become more important in todays world where the reasons for going to war can appear more confused for instance:
You did not need to explain to a Belgian why the American armoured divisins were rolling through his cuontryside and shelling his villages. Neither to an extent did this need to be explained to the German citizens integral to the War effort in Germany.
In Todays theatre it may be deemed that ones reasons for waging war are more open to criticism, requiring more public justification. especially when it the reasons for going to war cannot clearly be seen. Take for instnce the stance of the French.
Please lets forget the last 20 pages and conentrate instead on the first 4 1/2.
Bluff
Back to the original subject of Hearts and Minds, what is needed wherever the conflict takes place is not just pouring cash into the area and giving sweets to the local children, but for a structured and far-sighted plan to be in place.
This includes the protection of the non-partizan and ‘on-side’ civpop, the rapid building or reconstruction of infrastructure, and the enabling of the locals.
Reference enablement, the handout of cash to the civs is perhaps not the best starting point as it can be a subject of envy by neighbours, provides temptation of corruption and is obviously a target for the terrs.
Rather some bills of service for example, whereby if a local craftsman carries out work for a homeowner the materials can be supplied or paid for by the military command/civil power involved.
Obviously this is a far from perfect solution and has the possibility of abuse, so a non-obtrusive but thorough check system is needed.
However it puts the onus of trust onto the locals, and lets them build their own community.
While getting the children onside by giving them treats does have certain merits, it is more important that their views toward the troops are moulded both by the actions of the individual soldier on the ground and by what they hear from their parents and elders when there are no patrols present. Community influences are of utmost importance in ensuring that conflict does not continue into the following generations.
The setting up of secure villages in Malaya was an inspired idea, as was the arming of villagers for their own defence, (alongside soldiers,) although it was initially met with a great deal of scepticism from various levels within the military command.
H&M is a long haul and it requires a very high level of professionalism from all ranks in the military and the civil powers.
Even the politicians at the top need to get a grip and act with honour, (as if !) as this is often where many decisions are made, and hence can decide the ultimate outcome.
There were of course a number of errors made in Malaya when the powers tried different theories, but a willingness to accept ones mistakes and to learn from them will ensure that a sensible result is reached.
Little story from me about hearts and minds, personal experience and in no way is it meant to be a direct US bashing exercise.
Last year I travelled on my military hols to a US Gulf Air Base. Here we had the fun of living and working with our allies, and I enjoyed it. However 2 things I didnt enjoy were:
- In the US Mess (Chow Hall) they employ foreign nationals to help cook the food and also to clean up amoungst other things.
The more I used to eat there, the more annoyed I would become, and the more annoyed the other Brits and Aussies would too.
Why?
An example - every day - we would order our food, when it was on our plate we would say thanks.
No US personnel in my vacinity in 3 months ever said thanks to the cooks.
When we finished our meal we would hand our plastic trays and mess back into a guy at a hatch. We always took care to place it it the guys hand and say thank you.
In all my time there I only saw 2 US AF personnel do this, the vast majority either slid/threw the tray towards them or just banged it down in front of them and wallked out.
Guess what - these foreign nationals didnt like it. They did however like th Brits and Aussies and gues what to - we got better treatment.
- I and some of my fellows were invited to dine with our US counterparts. A kind of Dining in Night, without the Booze ( I know).
US Stewards served us and being Brits we thanked them as they served our meals.
We were then taken to task by our fellow diners for it.
“This is there job” I was told, if you thank them for it they wont appreciate it! An I was somehow demeaning them for it.
A day afterwards I met one of the Stewards and she thanked me for being so polite! Said it was a pleasure to have the Brits for a change.
Long and drawn out I know. But I think it sums up something about hearts and minds. You have to make an effort with anyone and especially those that work around you. Arrogance makes you no friends at all.
Edited to add, I have no idea why it came out double spaced.
Firefly, non-military I know, and you may view it as irrelevant, but nonetheless, here goes.
Against the advice of several people, I spent a holiday in Egypt last year, for a month, with my son and daughter-in-law.
I made the effort to learn a little, (a very little), Arabic; really a few words.
Please (menfadlak), thank you, (shukhran) etc.
The difference it made was astounding.
Those few words, used to people who, by and large spoke excellent English, had us treated like royalty.
We had what amounted to our own personal waitress, with a table (unofficially) reserved every morning for us on the terrace for breakfast.
Our regular driver asked his company for a transfer to our second hotel in Luxor when we moved from Giza, so he could continue to drive us around. (He didn’t get it)
I’ve posted elsewhere how a taxi driver invited us to be his guests at a local cafe while we killed time waiting for our train.
When I saw the way most tourists treated the locals I wanted to hit some.
Hearts and minds in a situation like Iraq will be a long haul, as said before, but it can start with such tiny things as politeness and treating people as you would wish to be treated yourself.
Reiver - not at all.
I served in the US zone in Germans and was really taken aback at the treatment the locals gave us when my wife (a practised German speaker - though not perfect) actually spoke to them in German. We had the best 4 years of our time together there, and all because we spoke a bit og the lingo and other nationalities refused. Including many Brits I might add.
I discovered almost by accident a phrase which saved us so much bother :).
The street vendors around the exits from all the tourist sites, Pyramids, temples etc. are known as crocodiles, for good reason. Once they get a hold, they don’t let go.
No matter how often tourists told them no thanks, in whatever language, they hung on.
My daughter-in-law even replied in her native Russian, to find she got a reply in fluent, colloquial Russian!
However, the phrase, “Leh, shukran” (no, thank you) would be met with “perhaps later?”
My reply became standard : “Insh’Allah” (if God wills)
I invariably got a cheery smile and a wave, and was allowed on my way with no further ado 