Then I bet you wont get that reference.
Ironman your whole argument is based on two points
[ul]1 That the Koran said to kill unbelievers
2 That Christians are unbelievers.[/ul]
The first is not disputed, but the second even using your own links is incorrect. Your link clearly shows that Judaism, Christians and Muslims are a related religion.
Are you now saying that the link you posted is wrong?
PzKpfw VI Tiger
Try looking at one of his links.
http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/qta.htm
60 Questions to ask Muslims
Now that you know Muslims will get mad easily by asking them too many questions they don’t want to answer, we suggest the following:
This is the work of
Dr. Robert Morey
Who is associated with this site.
http://www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/
They even have a Crusader’s Club
The Crusaders Club is an elite group of faithful givers that supports the international outreach of Dr. Bob’s ministry, Faith Defenders. For a simple monthly donation, all members gain special access to http://www.crusadersclub.com membership pages. Included in this exclusive website are multiple articles on Apologetics, special video clips, a forum hosted by Dr. Bob, and much, much more.
Crusaders Club giving is set at four levels:
Crusader - $25 or more a month ($300 annually)
Membership to the Exclusive Website
CD of the month
this site also has articals like
http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/qta.htm
Allah the Fraud and Plagiarist
http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/atf.htm#http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/atf.htm
"O God, do not keep silence; do not hold your peace or be still, O God! For behold, your enemies make an uproar; those WHO HATE YOU have raised their heads . They lay crafty plans against your people ; they consult together against your treasured ones . They say, Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more! For they conspire with one accord; AGAINST YOU they make a covenant - the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites , Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre; Asshur also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. Selah Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon, who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground. Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna, who said, Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God. O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind. As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze, so may you pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your hurricane! Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O LORD . Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever; let them perish in disgrace, that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth
. Psalm 83:1-18
From the Crusder club website a biblical quote showing that Jahweh was to destroy other religions. The Christian God clearly supporting the destruction of unbelievers! The bibke is as open to interpretation as any source and any one reading it can interpret it as they like.
Corrupt scholars are able to twist anything IRONMAN your conclusion surrounding the Koran are inadvised.
Stephen R. Sizers. <Stephen@sizers.org>
Zion’s Christian Soldiers.
Pulished by Christ church publications, Virginia water Surrey
first published 2004
The US-Israeli alliance. When looking for reasons that the Arab world opposes America it might be worth investigating these sites, referenced
from the aforementioned book.
Republican party leader calls for Ethinc cleanising of Palestinians http://electronicinfatada.net/actionitems/020502dickarmey.html - link now defunct, transcript found elswhere, http://www.firethistime.org/beyondweird.htm
The southern Baptist convention
http://www.sbcannualmeeting.org/sbc02/resolutions/sbcresolution.asp?ID=1 Resolution 1, article at the bottom!, the only solution to terrorism is the conversion of all peoples to Christianity!
The Christian Zionists might be a small group but they are noisy and well publicised enough to anger alot of the middle east, even the Christian citizens of Palestine. If I were a middle Eastern Arab, had heard about Christian Zionism and then saw the American war machine land in the country beside me then regardless of the Islamic revolution, I would take offence at their presence.
[quote=“2nd_of_foot”]
Ironman your whole argument is based on two points
[ul]1 That the Koran said to kill unbelievers
2 That Christians are unbelievers.[/ul]
The first is not disputed, but the second even using your own links is incorrect. Your link clearly shows that Judaism, Christians and Muslims are a related religion.
Are you now saying that the link you posted is wrong?
PzKpfw VI Tiger
Try looking at one of his links.
http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/qta.htm
60 Questions to ask Muslims
Now that you know Muslims will get mad easily by asking them too many questions they don’t want to answer, we suggest the following:
This is the work of
Dr. Robert Morey
Who is associated with this site.
http://www.faithdefenders.com/ministry/
They even have a Crusader’s Club
The Crusaders Club is an elite group of faithful givers that supports the international outreach of Dr. Bob’s ministry, Faith Defenders. For a simple monthly donation, all members gain special access to http://www.crusadersclub.com membership pages. Included in this exclusive website are multiple articles on Apologetics, special video clips, a forum hosted by Dr. Bob, and much, much more.
Crusaders Club giving is set at four levels:
Crusader - $25 or more a month ($300 annually)
Membership to the Exclusive Website
CD of the month
this site also has articals like
http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/qta.htm
Allah the Fraud and Plagiarist
http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/atf.htm#http://www.dalitstan.org/sol/atf.htm[/quote]
Interesting site.
“Dr Bob” (yeuch), goes even further.
I found this little gem :
Faith is a matter of “obedience” to the divine command to repent and believe the gospel (Rom. 16:25-27; Acts 17:30-31; 20:21). God’s commands are not “suggestions” open to negotiation. We are to submit, not argue. We are to obey, not rebel.
II. Different Kinds of Unbelief
A. Religious unbelief: The person already has a belief system:
- A world religion: Judaism, Roman Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.
- A “Christian” cult: LDS, SDA, JW, etc.
- The occult: magic, witchcraft, Wicca, Voodoo, reincarnation, astrology, etc.
- Religious liberalism or humanism
- New Age, globalism, environmentalism, animal rights, etc.
- A philosophy
- Psychology
- Mysticism
Note that the good doctor lumps Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, the Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses and Hinduism along with witchcraft, Voodoo and animal rights.
Also, since when was psychology a belief system?
I’d say that Doctor Bob’s world view of religion stops at his own version.
Better still psychology and Philosophy are both “other religions” IRONMAN bearing in mind your expert knowledge of both of these I think you will find a burning cross on your lawn any day now!. You are more of a heretic to the true Christian Religion than the Muslims, being as you are already an affiliate of 3 (4- including doggy-love) subversive improper religious orders.
Wow what a source to reference.
You can either denounce it and lose any ground Bob won for you
or you can stand by it and have association with his wisdom mock you.
your call!
Wrong again Junior.
That’s not what we’re contending.
- The Qoran does not charge Muslims with killing the infidels.
Yes it does : Infidels are not Christians, Christians are not infidels.
- Muslim terrorists do not use the Qoran for inspiration.
Yes they do : they twist its words just the way you’ve been doing.
- Muslim children are not taught from the Qoran.
Yes they are, but since the Qur’an doesn’t teach the killing of Christians, what’s your point?
The Muslims hate everything about the west. They see us as infidels. They believe we are bidding against God. They believe that the west is the source of all of the evil and infidelity in the world. The believe that western society is corrupted, evil, and practices indirect idolatry. They dislike us also because we are allies of Israel.
Does this mean that it will never be possible to make them like us? Absofreakinglutely! As long as they are not Christian and the west predominantly is, it will be so. Does that mean that we cannot make friends with them and even allies of them? Perhaps for a while, but not permanently.
Are you completely blind to all of the world that is being conducted by Muslims against predominantly Christian peoples? Even in Chechnya, the bombings in schools which killed 200+ children were conducted by Muslims against Slavic Christians. Sometimes it is politically motivated, other times it is plainly religious. But the basis of it all is religion.
You have much to learn about the Muslim people.
my emboldment.
This is your original premise,
Where did you go to, who did you talk to, what did you read to Learn about the Islamic faith and the Muslim people?
I went to a Christian cathedral school, but had Muslim children in every year of that school as well as Sikh Children. I count a Muslim amongst my close firends. I am the son of a Priest, and he has never had cause to disassociate himself from me, he is a devout Muslim and woul pray dail even whilst at school, the Staff granting him and the other pupils time from lessons in order to go to a classroom for prayer (during the months of Ramadan) You cannot explain why this would be permitted by his faith using your logic, and you do not know him and cannot rightfully claim he is a bad Muslim.
You are yet again on this ice supported by your own and various misguided groups rhetoric!
His point was threefold: to obfuscate, to avoid answering the question, and to move the goalposts.
IRONMAN - lord of cut and paste, yet agan one of your posts into google has furnished me with this delightful webpage, Which I am sure you will agree, cannot be tarred with the Brush of british Wishy Washy Liberalism!
www.masada2000.org/islam.html
With links to the anti Muslim society!
This is not a suitable source for any quote its a Diatribe of vivious racism that you have subscribed to. Tell me would you call the website above, Racist, or a balanced appraisal of the situation?
http://www.masada2000.org/sharepain.html - Nuke the middle east!
http://www.masada2000.org/lifeline2.html -
Why not unload this heavy baggage and become a good Jew… or, at the very least, ACT AS ONE. Our Torah and Jewish laws preach love, compassion, compromise and justice… not Jihad, Holy War and suicidal martyrdom. You keep saying that you and we are “cousins.” Why not become more like brothers? Within a generation or two your progeny will thank you.
- Love and compassion in the shape of an apache gunship I take it?
http://www.masada2000.org/solution.html - how about a self righteous Holocaust run by the Jews themselves (NUMBER 11 IS A CLASSIC) - WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING USING QUOTES FROM SITES LIKE THIS IN A DEBATE - YOU ARE A FUCKING TWAT
I dont know how Degrees work in your hickville university where you did your drama degree, BUT, without references a source is incredible.
You are copying and pasting from unsupported websites!
it also found me this
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1153128/posts
Now without wanting to go on stereotypes I think the author “Moshe Sharon” Might have a slightly weighted view on Muslims and the Arab world.
ironman,the muslims are going to kill us.
if you think every muslim is terrorist,then you will see spain and england blowed up by the lots of muslim inmigrants!!!.
come on!,im christian and i have muslim friends.
READ THE QUORAN,DON`T QUOTE.
im sorry to the muslim members in the forum if we have one.
As you have pointed out the liberal nature of Britain means that Zionists and Christian Zionists and Israel in General are not well supported by the UK, this might be different in the US.
www.masada2000.org/islam.html
With links to the anti Muslim society!
This is not a suitable source for any quote its a Diatribe of vivious racism that you have subscribed to. Tell me would you call the website above, Racist, or a balanced appraisal of the situation?
lets see if you dodge this question 25 times
is the Masada site that you got your quote from Racist?
you forget to put the link of the killed iraquian children and the abused prisoners!,and those we`re civilians!
Edited because i can`t spell a single letter :!:
Again where is it written that Christians = unbelievers?
Do not use some quote that relates to unbelievers, just say where it has Christians = unbelievers.
Post nothing else just that. If you can do that you have proved your point, if you cannot, say that.
Do not post anything else.
Damn dude what hate site are you getting your crap from? I can see that yours has been slanted to fit a hate role.
At the beginning of each chapter of the Koran its says"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful."
“The Dinner Table”
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.
“The Dinner Table”
Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.
“The Accessions”
When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
“The Women”
And when you journey in the earth, there is no blame on you if you shorten the prayer, if you fear that those who disbelieve will cause you distress, surely the unbelievers are your open enemy.
“The Victory”
Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
“The Prohibition”
O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.
“The Dinner Table”
Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?
These just like the Bible are open to interpretation. It depends on they way the are presented.
It would appear that you are spreading hatred on my site and I am not going to stand for it. I have been very nice and considerate towards you. Therefore I would seriously think before you reply to this post. If you continue with this type of posting I will view you in the same group as if a Nazi were to come to the site and start downing Jews. Im assuming that you were just mistaken on your accounts and that you might have been a bit mislead. Its happens. If not and you persist you will be gone.
Maybe you meant to say this is how some people unfortunatly view the Koran.
Info above comes from http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html
READ THE QUORAN BEFORE GIVING YOUR OPINION.
I DONT WANT A DRUNK GUY GIVING OPINIONS OF MY BIBLE LIKE YOURE DOING WITH THE MUSLIM HOLY BOOK.
Thanks for that general. It is plain that ironman has miss quoted to prove his point. This give the full reference and after reading several times the meaning becomes clear.
[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say:
The first part identifies disbelievers.
Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium;
This should be in quote so that you can see that someone is saying it and it is a question.
and the Messiah said:
It is then followed by an answer and a chastisement.
O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.
But said nothing about killing them, just that the Lord will sort them out.
I am not going to go through the lot as the same applies.
Ironman you have been duped by professional con artist who are using your fear (which may have substance) to get support and money from you. Do your own research on the quotes you have put, use that college education.
Erwin, I don’t think every Muslim wants to kill us. You are reading too much into what i say. I have not said that. What I say is;
As long as there are Muslims willing to act on the words of the Koran, there will be terrorists.
What is controversial about that? Nothing. It’s something that everyone that I know, have met, and whose literature I have have read agrees with.[/quote]
I don’t think every Muslim wants to kill us???
oh,i have problems in my eyes or i need glasses.
btw,sorry,but im posting when im drunk
IRONMAN you claim that every Muslim reads the Koran and that the Koran includes the instructions from Allah.
Islam means “submission” submission-to-the-will-of-Allah, now then,
It doesnt require a leap in logic to extrapolate your underlying theme.
All true Muslims must in correct accordance with Allah’s instructions kill Westerners. This is what you ahve been driving at!
and before you accuse me of twisting your words you should look at what you ahve done to the words of the Koran, I am happy to twist your owrds because in doing so I havent endagered the safety of anyone in the world unlike the corrupt scholars and lessinformed westerners that read hateful websites designed purposefully to create and incubate anti-Islamic sentiments.
If you did not mean “all Muslims after reading the Koran must kill westerners” then you shouldnt spend 25 pages defending a postion so close to that statement, you have a degree (?) you should have a better grasp of the English language and not leave room for doubt. Your posts have evidently been inflammatory and you havent shied from them but revelled in the furore, clining to your three premises and not moving from them.
I do not believe you. You are inciteful to racial hatred, not accidnetally but purposefully
There are no expletives in this post this far. Look away now
cock
IRONMAN you are no longer to discuss this subject or post in this thread. I will discuss your attitude with the other mods on the site and FW-190. If you disobey this it will result in your ban from the site for a week. You are free to post in other area’s but you are not to discuss the subject of Islam. We need to evaluate what you have posted here and the impact that it will have on the future of the site.
All that post after this … let it be known that this topic is touching on thin ice. So be very careful on what you post.
IRONMAN has now taken back his words, Comparing his earlier posts with the one he has jsut made it is evident that he is in retreat, but I appreciate that if I say this hell throw his toys from the pram yet again so instead I shall say.
Thankyou GEN. Sandworm, I shant post in this thread either until the matter has been resolved.
Bluff