hearts and minds

[Tubbyboy]

@Tubbyboy

I think this forum holds 15 posts per page, unfortunately, we only have 14 on here so far.

This should now be a new page. I guess it really is 15 per page then.

[Tubbyboy]

OK, this should be a new page.

[Gen_Sandworm]

@Tubbyboy

OK, this should be a new page.

It would appear misson accomplished

[reiver]

Well, it’s pretty much official.
The London bombs were suicide missions, and by British born Muslims.
Since the Madrid bombings were carried out by Spanish nationals, we know it’s not only the British Muslim community that’s sufficiently radicalised to produce home-grown “martyrs”, so it’s hard to see how anyone can claim we’re winning the War on Terror.
It’s also difficult to see what steps can be taken to combat this phenomenon that won’t be counter-productive, in that any Draconian measures will simply radicalise more potential bombers for the “cause”.
It has to be “hearts and minds” in the relevant communities, and a long, hard slog ahead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/13/nbomb13.xml

[festamus]

Its all well and good saying we need to win hearts and minds with the Muslim community, but to be honest I think it’s more a case of that community realising that acting victimised won’t solve the problem.

I have Muslim friends, and I worry about repraisals against the Muslim community, but I do worry that the Muslim community need to stand up and be counted (rather than feel victimised) by shopping those people amongst them who are doing these things.

It’s a sad fact these guys, while not representing Islam and Muslims in general, believe they do. They are recruited by people who the communities allow to preach amongst them. Parents need to make sure their sons (and daughters) don’t fall for the bile thrown out by the people who recruit terrorists.

And they need to stand up and denounce these terrorists for what they are so that any other of their sons considering it know how their fellow Muslims will know them not as martyrs, but as what they truly are when they commit these acts: murdering scum

[Walther]

In Germany it has been discovered thast most of the radical preachers don’t have German citizenship. So lately immigration law has been used to cancel their residence permits (for acting against the constitution), and they have been deported, the most recent case was the Turkish wannabe caliph Metin Kaplan, who bought an old factory in Cologne and declared it his caliphate state, where he had absolute power. He already served three years in a German prison for inciting his followers to murder a rival, then he was confined to his home by police law (probably the worst punishment for him, according to the police, who had his house bugged, he was thorougly henpecked by his wife and his teenage daughter :twisted:), while the authorities were getting a way to send him back to Turkey. The biggest obstacle was that he was wanted in Turkey for planning a bomb attack on the Turkish government, after which he wanted to take over in Turkey to make it an Islamist state. They charged him with treason, which is punished by Turkish law with hanging. Now Germany is not allowed to deport somebody to where he is facing the death penalty, but after some talks the Turkish government gave in and excluded the death penalty from his trial, so he got sent back to Turkey. There he was sentenced to life imprisonment for the attempted overthrow.

Jan

[system]

We have a charming chap called ABU HANSA, who is also an illegal immigrant (I think) definetly an Asylum seeker, And having arrived here in a “safe” country he has devoted most of his efforts to destroying it, through purposefully creating strife for the ethnic minorities and the Blair Government, conngratulating OBL on his actiivites and actively encouraging Jihad.

[2nd_of_foot]

@Bluffcove

We have a charming chap called ABU HANSA, who is also an illegal immigrant (I think) definetly an Asylum seeker, And having arrived here in a “safe” country he has devoted most of his efforts to destroying it, through purposefully creating strife for the ethnic minorities and the Blair Government, conngratulating OBL on his actiivites and actively encouraging Jihad.

Is he not in jail sponging the system for all its worth?

[King_Nothing]

Yes, he’s got a personal arse wiper in jail aswell.

[bas]

Interesting responses guys, once again our PC crap politics is allowing these ass wipes to walk all over our society!

Good going to parliment <sarcastic>

[Walther]

Well, as a convicted criminal, will he not get deported after he has served his sentence? In most countries a conviction voids the residence permit. Wasn’t he also Egyptian, with the Egyptian police waiting for him back home?

Jan

[system]

@Bluffcove

RM - were in Korea and not only that, but with the USMC at Chosin.

I never said that UK soldiers were not in Korea. It was, after all, a UN action. I have no desire to try to undermine the contribution made by UK soldiers. However, I stated that the majority of the combat in Korea was done by the USMC and you disagreed. They did. From Inchon to the retreat, the USMC did more of the fighting than anyone else and remained at the front. The UK soldiers you mentioned took up the rear and fought with elements of the USMC in a fierce battle to make a way for retreat. Nothing wrong with that. They fought fiercely and were needed where they were to provide support and help fight our way out. But the USMC still did more fighting than anyone else in Korea.

@Bluffcove

Hearts and minds - Was first used in its present incarantion (as a Military tool for suppressing resistance) http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Desert_song/Hearts.htm <<<<<Example of how it was performed.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. I can say this though, the term “Hearts and Minds” has been used by the US in more than one war, although it is safe to say that it seems that it has been used a lot more by the British than by Americans.

@Bluffcove

Winning the War on Terror - George Bush has just banned US service personel from entering the M25 (in the same week the British have declared we shall not be cowed) - Does this suggest the terrorists have “beaten” the American spirit of 9/11?

(my embodiment)
You are spewing bullchit right there. You are trying to imply the American people have cowered. WTF are you trying to suggest? You must not understand Americans very well or you’d never say such out of fear of how utterly bullhocky such an implication would make you seem. It’s pretty offensive to make such an implication. Please don’t spout such crap as that.

@Bluffcove

We are fighting the war on terror, however… The war by the very fact it is a war against an abstract noun can never be “won” in a conventional military sense, and for as long as we fight conventional military wars against it we will never see victory.

I don’t share your defeatist philosophy.

@reiver

A highly questionable statement, that we are winning the War on Terror. We ousted the Taliban certainly, although they are not wiped out by any means, witness the downing of the SEALs Chinook a couple of weeks back.

Yea well, British soldiers have lost their lives over there too. So WTF. The US has lost helicopters in other conflicts. That never stopped us. You think a helicopter going down means defeat? :roll:

Yes, I do think we are winning the war on terror. We are taking away their training grounds and making life hell for them. Just because we have a lot of work ahead does not mean we are losing the war on terror. Certainly we will never stop terrorists from existing or doing dastardly things. But the goal is to get other nations, especially in the Middle East, to take up the cause and police their own countries and combat terrorists locally. When that day comes, there might not be a need for your country and mine to be over there, and there will be a lot less terrorists and acts of terror in the world.

@BDL

I’m sure the Glorious Glosters would argue with you about who did the most fighting - the USMC are undoubtedly good soldiers Ironingman, they don’t need people like you denying that any other soldiers in the world could ever have fought as well as them.

Who is denying that other soldiers fought in Korea? I never said that. I said that the USMC did the bulk of the fighting in Korea, and that is true. They were at the front from the landings at Inchon to the Battle of Chosin, and the retreat. As for “fought as well” I have no desire to say that British troops did not or have not fought very well anywhere! But since you bring up “fought as well” in reference to Korea, I will remind you that the USMC, and only the USMC, achieved a 10-1 kill ratio against the Chinese in Korea. That kill ratio is typical of the USMC in no matter what conflict. Thier ability to achieve such kill ratios consistently has given them an unchallenged place as the most effective fighting force in the world. Nobody has ever fought as well, in any war in the history of modern warfare, as the USMC at Chosin Reservoir. Nobody. I strongly suggest that you read as many articles from highly authoritative sources on that subject as you can find. You’ll be amazed.

Again, I have not said and do not believe that british forces did not fight well anywhere in modern warfare.

@BDL

John Adams probably didn’t have a clue what “hearts and minds” warfare was. He said the war was won in the hearts and minds of the American people, as far as I’m aware, there was never a hearts and minds campaign during the American Civil War. The first (as far as I am aware) was the 22nd Special Air Service Regiment in Borneo in the 1950s.

I understand that the term has been used more by the British than by the US. I also understand that John Adams did not use the term in exactly the way it is used today.

@"BDL"

Dropping liquid fire and gene altering chemicals on civilians was part of an intent not to cause civilian casualties?

OK. Now you’re spouting chickenshit crap right there. Let’s not revert to the “you point out a US military blunder, then I point out a British military blunder, then you, then me, then you, then me…” crap. It can go on forever. The napalm was to destroy enemy positions and the Agent Orange was to defoliate the jungles so bombers could see the enemy. Neither was used with the intention of killing civilians. Please, lets discuss and debate, but don’t spout chit you know is a lie. You only demean yourself.

[quote=BDL]WE ARE NOT WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM

I do not share your defeatist attitude.

@Bluffcove

Muslims do not hate the west - saying that they do, is both a lie and a simplification for no purpose at all.

This is the dumbest remark yet make on this site. There was a little thing called the Crusades a long time ago. Read up on it. :shock:

The Muslims hate everything about the west. They see us as infidels. They believe we are bidding against God. They believe that the west is the source of all of the evil and infidelity in the world. The believe that western society is corrupted, evil, and practices indirect idolatry. They dislike us also because we are allies of Israel.

Does this mean that it will never be possible to make them like us? Absofreakinglutely! As long as they are not Christian and the west predominantly is, it will be so. Does that mean that we cannot make friends with them and even allies of them? Perhaps for a while, but not permanently.

Are you completely blind to all of the world that is being conducted by Muslims against predominantly Christian peoples? Even in Chechnya, the bombings in schools which killed 200+ children were conducted by Muslims against Slavic Christians. Sometimes it is politically motivated, other times it is plainly religious. But the basis of it all is religion.

You have much to learn about the Muslim people.

EDITED TO ADD:

The Saudis are already taking up the cause. They are fighting terroist with a huge, highly sophisticated intelligence network in theor own country. I saw a documentary recently which showed the insides of their new terrorist operations facilities. There were gigantic plasma screen monitors all over the place. It is a good start.

[Crab_to_be]

@IRONMAN

You have much to learn about the Muslim people.

I suppose you are an expert on the muslim faith too? With my rather limited experience, I know enough to say that it is no more a monolithic religion than Christianity. There are many different interpretations of that faith with verying degrees of fanaticism. The worshippers at the Turkish mosque down the road from me are no more of a threat to anyone than the worshippers at the Seventh Day Adventist Church across the road.

One of the most important developments over the last few days is Imams in the UK finally (and I think four years too late) recognising that condemning these attacks is not enough. They must encourage their communities to actively assist the police, intelligence services and so forth in order to fight this brand of islamofascist terror effectively.

To say that there can never be peace with muslims is just plain wrong. Additionally, not all muslims hate the West. Again, look to the Turkish immigrants to the UK who are contributing tremendously to my area.

[Fuchs66]

The Muslims hate everything about the west. They see us as infidels. They believe we are bidding against God. They believe that the west is the source of all of the evil and infidelity in the world. The believe that western society is corrupted, evil, and practices indirect idolatry. They dislike us also because we are allies of Israel.

Do you actually know any Muslims? I know of at least one who does a lot of work for YOUR homeland security, he is an American citizen and he certainly does not hate the west, I count him as one of my best friends and I find your over simplifications an insult both to him and to me. I have also in the past worked with Muslims from the Lebanon, Egypt and Bosnia all of whom have been friendly, polite, hard working and helpful which is a lot more than I can say for many Christian Americans I have had the “pleasure” to work with.

[system]

The Muslims that both of you describe are living in the UK and the US. They are not living in the Middle East where children are taught in SCHOOL that the west is full of evil and idolatry. There is a huge, huge difference.

[festamus]

They are not living in the Middle East where children are taught in SCHOOL that the west is full of evil and idolatry

You mean it isn’t? :o

[Ale]

The Saudis are already taking up the cause. They are fighting terroist with a huge, highly sophisticated intelligence network in theor own country. I saw a documentary recently which showed the insides of their new terrorist operations facilities. There were gigantic plasma screen monitors all over the place. It is a good start.

Of course! Now that they have gigantic plasma screen monitors we are all safe from Terrorism! Hooray for Dixons and Curry’s!

[system]

@Ale

The Saudis are already taking up the cause. They are fighting terroist with a huge, highly sophisticated intelligence network in theor own country. I saw a documentary recently which showed the insides of their new terrorist operations facilities. There were gigantic plasma screen monitors all over the place. It is a good start.

Of course! Now that they have gigantic plasma screen monitors we are all safe from Terrorism! Hooray for Dixons and Curry’s!

But the Saudis hate hte plasma screen TV’s because they are in the Middle east and the Plasma screens are ICONS of Evil and Idolatry, they stone them and bury them up to their necks in sand because being from the middle East, Saudi’s are “narrow minded” and dont understand the west.

Aint that Right IRONMAN?

Sorry, are Saudi’s not “normal” Muslims because they oppose Terrorism? You do know that Saudi is in the middle East - Not the UK or the US? You know the middle east? It is where all the poeple that hate us live?

The Muslims that both of you describe are living in the UK and the US. They are not living in the Middle East where children are taught in SCHOOL that the west is full of evil and idolatry. There is a huge, huge difference.

IRONMAN, shall we play your compare the quotes game again?

[Ale]

IRONMAN, shall we play your compare the quotes game again?

Ohhhh, goody! Can we can we daddy?

[system]

In the Quran:

You may already know about this one: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. [al-Ma’idah 5:51.11]

But did you know that there are 123 verses in the Quran concerning fighting and killing for the cause of Allah? Here are but a few passages:

-Muslims are encouraged to be wholly occupied (Sura 2:273) with fighting for Allah’s cause.

• Allah will give “a far richer recompense to those who fight for him” (Sura 4:96).

• Regarding infidels (unbelievers), they are the Muslim’s “inveterate enemies” (Sura 4:101). Muslims are to “arrest them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere” (Sura 9:5) for them. They are to “seize them and put them to death wherever you find them, kill them wherever you find them, seek out the enemies of Islam relentlessly” (Sura 4:90). “Fight them until Islam reigns supreme” (Sura 2:193). “Cut off their heads, and cut off the tips of their fingers” (Sura 8:12).

• If a Muslim does not go to war, Allah will kill him (Sura 9:39). He is to be told, “the heat of war is fierce, but more fierce is the heat of Hell-fire” (Sura 9:81).

• A Muslim must “fight for the cause of Allah with the devotion due to him” (Sura 22:78)

• Muslims must make war on the infidels (unbelievers) who live around them (Sura 9:123).

• Muslims are to be “ruthless to unbelievers” (Sura 48:29).

• A Muslim should “enjoy the good things” he has gained by fighting (Sura 8:69).

• A Muslim can kill any person he wishes if it be a “just cause” (Sura 6:152).

• Allah loves those who “fight for his cause” (Sura 61:3).
  Anyone who fights against Allah or renounces Islam in favor of another religion shall be “put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off alternative sides” (Sura 5:34).

• Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him. Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

• Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)

• Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)

• I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)

• They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)

• Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55

:shock: