The trouble is that you could do a very similar thing with verses from the Bible. As with all other religious texts, there is much to be gained from reading with guidance from a learned person.
I also wondered why my Muslim flatmate was such a good friend. Turns out she was getting ready to lop my fingertips off! :roll:
Seriously Ironman - if you really believe this, then the extremists have won. They WANT people they can point to as hating them. They want to hijack Islam. By attacking you, they seek for you to hate and retaliate against all Muslims who will then seek to defend themselves. At which point, things go from being a few extremists among hundreds of millions, to being something altogether more worrying.
Don’t fall for it. The people who do these things don’t speak for Islam any more than the IRA speak for Catholics. They are murdering scum and that is that.
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. I can say this though, the term “Hearts and Minds” has been used by the US in more than one war, although it is safe to say that it seems that it has been used a lot more by the British than by Americans.
The British meaning for Hearts and minds within a military context varies slightly from the meaning given to it by the Americans, Not to do with “where the War is won” but more to do with “how the War is won” this is tricky and not easily explained in short form.
(my embodiment)
You are spewing bullchit right there. You are trying to imply the American people have cowered. WTF are you trying to suggest? You must not understand Americans very well or you’d never say such out of fear of how utterly bullhocky such an implication would make you seem. It’s pretty offensive to make such an implication. Please don’t spout such crap as that.
In the same week that our Government declared that it was safe for people to enter London and actively encouraged civilians and women and children to enter the capital city, a command was handed down to serving military personel, (employed to fight terror) not to go to the city incase there were terrorists there. I have drawn my own conclusions clearly you have to.
I don’t share your defeatist philosophy.
How exactly do you defeat an Abstract noun? a war on “joy” a war on “melancholy” a war on “anxiety” Terror is a fact of life it will exist in some form regardless of the actions of any government it cannot be removed from the spectrum of human emotion.
Yes, I do think we are winning the war on terror. We are taking away their training grounds and making life hell for them.
and they move their training grounds at will, and camps spring up wherever their is resentment of US (or western) foreign policy, resentment caused by percieved wars against Islam - such as you describe, we are not fighting Islam we are fighting terror consfusing the two will doubtless add to the ranks of the Extremists. .
Just because we have a lot of work ahead does not mean we are losing the war on terror. Certainly we will never stop terrorists from existing or doing dastardly things (consequently how can you ever gain voctory over them if you cannot prevent them them commiting acts of terrorism) But the goal is to get other nations, especially in the Middle East, to take up the cause and police their own countries and combat terrorists locally. When that day comes, there might not be a need for your country and mine to be over there, and there will be a lot less terrorists and acts of terror in the world.
This Plan has been tried before and creating stattes that can be termed Puppets, does not normally bode well for anyone involved. South America, The Balkans, the Caucusus, all had foreign imposed government all was as guilty as corruption as any other.
“Do not bite the hand that feeds” - Ever wondered who the next Iraqi Government will be sympathetic to? and what this might do for the stability in hte region? forget terrorists attacks, if it is felt by neighbouring states that their is a satellite state of a western nation in the heart of the Middle East it will not be welocmed, (Israel perchance?)
Who is denying that other soldiers fought in Korea? I never said that. I said that the USMC did the bulk of the fighting in Korea, and that is true. They were at the front from the landings at Inchon to the Battle of Chosin, and the retreat. As for “fought as well” I have no desire to say that British troops did not or have not fought very well anywhere! But since you bring up “fought as well” in reference to Korea, I will remind you that the USMC, and only the USMC, achieved a 10-1 kill ratio against the Chinese in Korea. (guys do we know of any regiment or body of men that records "kill ratios?) That kill ratio is typical of the USMC in no matter what conflict. Thier ability to achieve such kill ratios consistently has given them an unchallenged place as the most effective fighting force in the world.(Well the use of the word effective is a bit dubious, I mean Im sure that rourkes drift had a very high kill ratio, but then bearing in mind hte conditions im not sure if it was because we were “effective” or jsut because rifles are more advanced than pointy sticks?. Nobody has ever fought as well, in any war in the history of modern warfare, as the USMC at Chosin Reservoir Rourkes fucking drift. Nobody. I strongly suggest that you read as many articles from highly authoritative sources on that subject as you can find. You’ll be amazed.
Again, I have not said and do not believe that british forces did not fight well anywhere in modern warfare.
I understand that the term has been used more by the British than by the US. I also understand that John Adams did not use the term in exactly the way it is used today. - therefore in todays usage of the term “hearts and minds” it was the British that created and coined (the term) but more importnatly the Ethos? - if I find that UG the Caveman once said “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” does that mean JC’s sermon on the mount was just a rip-off of an earlier Idea?
This is the dumbest remark yet make on this site. There was a little thing called the Crusades a long time ago. Read up on it. :shock:
There was a little thing called the Sacking of Jeruslalem, Saladdin, and Moors occupation of Spain, However Christians do not “Hate Muslims” 2000 years on (although the attitude of certain persons makes this questionable)
The Muslims hate everything about the west really is that why they buy plasma TV’s and Lexus cars, and build the most expensive 4 star hotels in in the world the persian gulf, speciifcally to re-capture the money from the west that the west makes through trading with their Oil sheiks? Do the Oil sheiks hate the West - that line their pockets? They might hate us but they are integral to us and us to them? They see us as infidels. They believe we are bidding against God. They believe that the west is the source of all of the evil and infidelity in the world No they beleive that Satan is the source of all Evil and certain amongst there number believe if you are not a follower of Islam, then you are a follower of Satan, However it is posssible to not follow Islam and not be under Satans command, equally it is possible to be Western and Muslim. They believe that western society is corrupted, evil, and practices indirect idolatry. They dislike us also because we are allies of Israel. (you have used the purposefully vague “they” so have I, until you become more accurate and specific I will remain vague - for a Scholar you appear quite vague on this subject, could we have refernece t certain decelnsions of Islam?)
Does this mean that it will never be possible to make them like us? Absofreakinglutely! - They havent always hated us, therfore it is possible that they will not act against us in the future, If it is clear they will always hate us then what is your solution? An enemy that wiull never recind? Well I guess the only way to defeat that would be to “kill them all”? go on say it! As long as they are not Christian and the west predominantly is, it will be so. Does that mean that we cannot make friends with them and even allies of them? Perhaps for a while, but not permanently. - a contradiction in terms, you have claimed:
it will never be possible to make them like us - we might one day be allied with them
Are you completely blind to all of the world that is being conducted by Muslims against predominantly Christian peoples? Even in Chechnya, the bombings in schools which killed 200+ children were conducted by Muslims against Slavic Christians. Sometimes it is politically motivated, other times it is plainly religious. But the basis of it all is religion.
- What about the Spice Islands? Northern Ireland? Western Sahara, is this all based on religion too? purely because the opposing sides are of differning religions? Even A GCSE history student in this country would appreciate that you cannot infer the reason behind conflict for religion? There has never been a purely religious war! Religion is a poltiical tool! and you have bought into it as much as any other.
You have much to learn about the Muslim people. - I hate to think who listens to your pious shit and beleives it.
EDITED TO ADD:
The Saudis are already taking up the cause. They are fighting terroist with a huge, highly sophisticated intelligence network in theor own country. I saw a documentary recently which showed the insides of their new terrorist operations facilities. There were gigantic plasma screen monitors all over the place. It is a good start.[/quote[/b]
Ironman this is not aimed at you it is aimed at non-believers. Islam and Christianity are based on Judaism and could be call sects of Judaism. The Old Testament is recognised by Christianity and Islam.
An unbeliever is someone of does not believe in god. The Moslems see Christ as a prophet of god. So Christians cannot be unbelievers.
No. You can’t.
Read Revelation or Deuteronomy, read any of the Old testament, FFS heard of the seven plagues of Israel or the conquest of the seven kingdoms?
Ill make it simple for you!
http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/twenty-four_cities_massacred/jos11_06.html - Judges, Joshua half the old testament is Jahweh AKA GOD (in the new testament) Reigning hellfire and brimstone on anyone that had angered him in the last couple of millenia. We are as warry as any religion, if you analyse us purely by our texts. As an expert in Womens sexuality then surely you are aware of the arcane practices the christian religion expects of its women!
as has been said earlier, you are a Prime example of the desired reaction of the extremists, xenophobic, misguided and retaliatory.
:?: The Quoran is taught to every Muslim child in a Muslim school. Now, don’t fall for what???
You have allowed the liberalism of your country to infect your thinking.
This is the dumbest remark yet make on this site. There was a little thing called the Crusades a long time ago. Read up on it.
There was a little thing called the Sacking of Jeruslalem, Saladdin, and Moors occupation of Spain, However Christians do not “Hate Muslims” 2000 years on (although the attitude of certain persons makes this questionable)
This is not in the original text, has it been edited out or has bluffcove added words.
As for the content, what a load of bollocks. The Muslims in Spain were the most understanding of other religions. When the christens took over they killed and tortured all and sundry who did not knee before them.
No. You can’t.[/quote]
**Isaiah 13:11 - I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
*Job 41:11 - Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand. -Interesting to note Job was a believer that God punished mercilessly for his entire lifetime, what was that about vengefulness?
Isaiah 66:22-24 “believers will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against [God]; their worm will not die, now will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind”
Daniel 12:2"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and
everlasting contempt."
Deuteronomy 17:12-13 (New Living Translation)
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. 13Then everyone will hear about it and be afraid to act so arrogantly.
Referenced to the Bible and my Father - A CofE priest of 23 years standing who has jsut been stood beside me marvelling at your dangerous lakc of sympathy with other religions
Yes, Bluffcove had added words to my statement in a sissified attempt to change what I said. What a putz.
A little of the hypocricy in the Quoran:
“Believers, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans – whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear nor regret”
“They declare : None but the Jews and Christians shall be admitted to Paradise.’ Such are their wishful fancies”
The bit in Bold was mine, I accept the Moorish occupation of Spain was not as bad as I made out. but the Battles over hte holy land were equally barabaric on both sides, to suggest that the hatred of Christianity started then and has continued forthwith is… only possible in IRONMANS head.
So, we see that the Quoran itself teaches Muslims to despise Christians and to kill them at every opportunity. Muslim school children are taught from the Qouran every day of their lives. Now, unless you think you are going to convince the millions of Muslims in the world to denounce the Quouran, it’s not going to end. You will never convince the Muslim people to denounce their own religion. Starting to get the picture? 
“Believers, Jews, Christians and Sabaeans – whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does what is right shall be rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to fear nor regret”
at the instruction of my father (say “Hi” dad) IRONMAN should notice the emboldened section - If you accept Allah and the last day you shall be saved.
Allah - God in Arabic,
Islam - belief in God.
now within Christianity the creed states,
“All that believe in me shall not perish but have everlasting life”
of hte ten commandments in the Old testment how many are not directly reflected in Islam?
we can play comapre the quotes again - but I am not trying to say that htey are the same relgiion I am saying that Islam is no more war like than Christianity, no more self assured or menacing, both religions are peaceful religions by all acccounts.
The Bombing of abortion clinics and the like are a tiny subversive element of a much larger picture, to state “all Muslims hate the west” is cringeworthy!
:?: The Quoran is taught to every Muslim child in a Muslim school. Now, don’t fall for what???
You have allowed the liberalism of your country to infect your thinking.[/quote]
Have you been schooled in a Muslim school (the correct name excepts me)?
Here we go again :roll:
You do of course have the kill ratios of every unit that has ever fought in the history of warfare? I’ve never heard of a British unit recording kill ratios, they’re normally happy to know that they’re alive at the end of a battle and the enemy are dead.
Agent Orange was used to defoliate forests - and who lived in those forests? I can’t see where I’ve lied here? Want me to dig out the world famous picture of the 12 year old Vietnamese girl running down the road screaming after a napalm attack on her village?
You can not share my defeatist attitude all you like - I’m fighting the “War on Terror”, you’re not. If we were winning the war on terror, the British Army wouldn’t be sending massive reinforcements to Afghanistan. A large crowd of kids wouldn’t have been blown up by a suicide bomber today in Iraq and we’d know where Bin-Laden was
Sorry so because American students are made to swear the oath of allegiance every day you will never get terroists because it is drummed into them and they have no free will, UNABOMBER, MCVEIGH, RUBY RIDGE.
What about hte other schools in the US that teach from the bible everyday? FLAT WORLD, DARWINISM, CREATIONISTS, KKK (until a relatively short time ago)
You cannot say that Muslims as a religion want to destroy the west, if this were so why did it only start in the 21st Century? or is the debauchery of the west only jsut come to light - maybe plasma TVs are an indicator of our materialism, but then… They are a good start for most Muslims
BDL - Great post!
Here we go again :roll:
You do of course have the kill ratios of every unit that has ever fought in the history of warfare? I’ve never heard of a British unit recording kill ratios, they’re normally happy to know that they’re alive at the end of a battle and the enemy are dead.
Agent Orange was used to defoliate forests - and who lived in those forests? I can’t see where I’ve lied here? Want me to dig out the world famous picture of the 12 year old Vietnamese girl running down the road screaming after a napalm attack on her village?
You can not share my defeatist attitude all you like - I’m fighting the “War on Terror”, you’re not. If we were winning the war on terror, the British Army wouldn’t be sending massive reinforcements to Afghanistan. A large crowd of kids wouldn’t have been blown up by a suicide bomber today in Iraq and we’d know where Bin-Laden was[/quote]
So you are saying that agent orange was dusted on the forests for the purpose of killing civilians? Answer that question or STFU.
EDITED TO ADD:
Yes or no will do.
Show me where it says in the Qouran that Christians are to be loved and respected. Please. Try to. I challenge you. :lol:
You have a few more questions to answer than he does!
AO was dropped to clear the forests as a primary intent, civilian casualties were a known by priduct of this campaign but it continued unhindered. - You havent explained how My Lai was designed to protect civilians yet? or was it pesky banana skins by childrens cots that caused all those nasty squelching noises?
Word fail me, I would expect this from some uneducated illiterate farmer in darkest Nigeria, but from a supposedly educated US citizen :roll: :roll: :roll: