Holding Them Off!

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#21

Interestingly enough, the Red Army during the Cold War adopted a system similar to the Germans situation during Barbarossa.

Several echolons had “ghost” units and even formations as you got further back. The “ghost” units either marched only on paper or had housekeeping personnel, ie a cadre of COs, OCs, mechanics, etc. depending on how quickly they were supposed to be combat ready or how hard positions were likely going to be to fill again.

As the Red Army moved West, and it’s foremost units became combat ineffective, they would drop back and be replaced by fully formed units. Rather than be given extra men. The various remenents could then be slotted in to the vacent slots of the “ghost” formations, to make fully ready formations. quick dab of paint for insignia, and “Westward, HO!!!”

This would continue until the first Callsign reached the Bay of Biscay.

#22

That’s right ydstare.
But why on your mind Hitler had not finished the britain but bagan the new great compain to the East.
The some of hight germans officers notified Hitler about danger “two-front” war but in 1941 he didn’t listen them. Why?
Becouse he saw the german power. That’s true the Luftwaffe could not to force Britain to go out of war(I agree with you the Goering was the “Greatest dreamer”) Moreover the Luftwaffe lost more aircrafts then the Britains.
Hitler simply terrorized the Britain and what …:slight_smile:
Could britains effectively answered to him. No.
Luftwaffe lost battle of Britain but absolutly ruled in the continental Europe.
The sparse British attemps to bomb the Germany was mostly unsuccessful and they had a great rate loses.
Having the bombing of Britain Hitler simply showed the world who “master of Europe”.
Sure the Roal Fleet was a strong, he had demonstrated its power by sinking the Bismark, ( by the price of lost of cruiser Huk which blow up into the air with all crew).
But Hitler already had the “universal sear wearpon”- Kringsmarine.
When U-47 sinked in Scapa-Floy the Royal flagship “Royal Oak” and without any hole(!!!) come back to the Germany Hitler has alredy believed : U-boats could neutralize the Britain Fleet.
Only since 1939 to march 1941 Germans sinked British transports and war ship by overall tonnage of 5 millions tonns (!!!).
So what’ its the moral ?
Its obvious in 1941 “Britain threat” was not critical for the Hitler. In the air and in sea Germany had anough power to fight with Britain. Besides after the capturing the whole continental Europe Hitler hold “free” army which in june of 1941 was sended to the East.

Cheers.

#23

Hi Firefly nice to meet you again after the long your absence. :slight_smile:
I rather pretty think “he controls the its colonies”.
Britain had a greatest fleet in 1940 , did it help them to win the Germany in Europe in 1940?

#24

to 1000ydstare:
Thanks for your very extensive answers. I agree with Chevan, you should write books. :wink:
Amazingly or not, but I agree with most your points. But I guess I make different conclusions. No… actually my conclusions are almost like yours, just with a twitch… see your self.
Here I will try to cover a couple of issues.

Not sure exactly which theories of Basil Liddell Hart’s you are on about, but they are merely his opinions.

Here is the quote I have of Mr.Basil (my loose translation back to English from Russian, please, bear with me): "Interestigly, neither Hitler nor German supreme comand did not elaborate plans against England… it is evident, that Hitler attempted to acheive peace with UK on favorable for British terms… the german army was absolutely unprepared for the invasion. In the stab of the German land forces not only did not plan the invasion, but did not even considered this option. "

Hitler’s initial warning order given on 16 July 1940 reflected the most current thinking at that time. In it he also set out the revised (from a previous orde in 1939) aims. Of particular note is the following line, it was the first line of the order. (with the exception of any formal addresses, etc.)

The “current thinking” and “revised aims” you mentioned must have evaporated just few days later, because on 21st of July the planning of “Barbarossa” started. Something tells me that “Barbarossa” was much more real. Ahh, it must be because it came to reality! :wink:
“Sea Lion” was not ment seriously. Its aim was to trick both British and Russians. There was no actual intension for invasion before “Barbarossa”. Terrorising UK until “peace”- Yes, invasion and capturing the main island by force - No.

As others have mentioned, Britain was indeed a target, but was a target of oppurtunity. The oportunity presented itself, and was taken. When time ran out, the Nazis attempted to neutralise Britain in order to prevent their interference.

I agree a traget of opportunity, not the main goal in 1940. Obviously for Hitler it would be so great to go East having some sort of settlement with UK. But he did not want to go full force, because this would postpone the East endavour, which he did not want to do for various important reasons.

In is highly likely that had Russia been finished off, Op Sea Lion 2, would have been executed, originally penned in for Spring 1941. The plan was only written off in 1943. By which point, the Germans were certainly on the hop.

It is getting close to speculation, but I actually fully agree with you that UK would be the next target.
Though not necessary a millitary one.

The French Navy was a big part of the plan, luckily the Royal Navy sank the navy, in a terrible yet essential attack at Mers-el-Kebir, whilst they were cooped up at anchor.

Just a side not, the Brits were in large favor of these attacks on the allied fleat when there was danger of it being captured.
I already mentioned here the case when British attacked Danmark twice in the beginning of 19th century. The second one was rather harsh (2000 dead, 30% of the buildings destroyed), when they burned Copenhagen with fire rockets. Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Copenhagen_(1807)

#25

These convoys were all British, until the 4th convoy, PQ-3 (PQ = Outgoing to Russia, QP = going home) when two Panamanian ships joined them.

Good people, I always wanted to find out what those ships in QP convoys were carring back home? A russian air? :wink: Or what?

#26

I’ve always liked this for a short but detailed analysis of the flaws in Sea Lion.
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm (Note that it’s an alternative history version with different timing but the German problems directly related to the assault remain the same.)

As for Britannia ruling the waves, Churchill (and at least one of his most senior military or naval advisers whose identity escapes me at the moment) took a different view as they feared that the U-boat campaign might succeed. Britain’s greatest defensive asset is being an island, but it is also its greatest weakness in a prolonged war if its lines of supply are cut and it becomes isolated. If America hadn’t come in, I think Churchill’s fears might have proved justified.

Churchill later wrote that the U-boat threat had been the only thing which had really worried him during the war, but more recent studies tend to suggest that Donitz never came within measurable distance of achieving victory in the Battle of the Atlantic. The failure to build up an adequate U-boat force prior to the outbreak of war was critical in this, as well as the enormous shipbuilding capacity of the Allies following the entry of the US into the war. But, certainly to those who fought and died in it, the Battle of the Atlantic was one of the grimmest and most bitterly contested campaigns of World War II.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/atlantic/bitterend.aspx

#27

I have to agree with Rising Sun. The underwater threat for the Britain was a real.
I read a article the Donitz had defined the vistory over Britain when he could sink at least 700 000 tonnage per month (In 1942 he was close to this figure). In this case he could deprive the Britain the resource and supplies for the leading war.
But as we know the involving the USA who let the Britain the new transport and war ship (and itself active joined to the fight agains U-boat ) didn’t let the Doniz to execute his dreams.

Cheers.

#28

Britain was never invaded by the axis.

#29

Despite having less potential than the reich the British were apparently outproducing the Germans in aircraft and warships in 1940. This bodes extremely badly for the reich and speaks badly about its use of resources. Hitler was an idiot.

#30

If idiot was in head of whole Europe -who were the europeans( who believed him)?:wink:

#31

This all reads incredibly glib, on the one hand, and emotive, on the other.

#32

Great Britain didn’t hold the Germans off, not at all.

The British Comonwealth did. You can also point to the lend lease program from America that provided various supplies and equipment, not least of all Ships.

The Battle of Britain was a very tight thing and can be pointed as a critical engagement.The RAF nearly run out of Pilots.

Pilots came from all corners of the Commonwealth, also Poles and and Chechs contributed heavily in this Battle.

The Naval recources were not just British, Ships both combat and supply came from all over the commonwealth, Britain received invaluable supply from her commonwealth as well.
In terms of troops who fought, the contribution by the commonwealth was massive. Until the world came in this war New Zealand had a decent body of troops in Nth Africa and Greece.

An Australian Corps served in the Nth African Region proving very much invaluable to the holding of of the Africa core and the sowing of the seeds that led to her defeat.

Field Marshal Rommel was quoted as saying he would of won Nth Africa with a division of Australians, one could expand in various ways on the significance of this comment and what led to it.

The Africa core came pretty close to getting to the Suez.

On Operation Sea Lion, The first Phase was to eradicate oppisition from the RAF as she posed a real and present threat at destroying the invasion force. If the RAF was dealt with and the RN tried to challange the crossing of the channel, the RN would of been smashed.

It was proven time and time again in WW2 Naval forces without air cover could not cope with being attacked from the air, really it wasnt a fair ball game.

The RN would of felt the full brunt of the Luftwaffe had this situation eventuated and the Luftwaffe was massed all along the coastal regions of France.

#33

Yes, Pottsy. The contribution from other forces to the defence of Britain has been widely (if not unrecognised) understated.

My uncle, for example, was one of the (if not ‘the’?) most highly decorated colonial pilots during WW2. As a Pathfinder flying both Mosquitos and Lancasters, his contribution was great. I used to have, and probably still have somewhere, a photo of HM Queen Mother unveiling his protrait in the Tate, London, after the War. He went on to achieve great things for his country including becoming (as well as High Commisioner to London) High Court Judge to Dar es Salaam (before Tanzania as is, became independant) and Ambassador to most Northern European countries. After he retired he went on to ammend his countries constituion. Now, his name is probably unknown in many circles.

But before we push our heads too far up our own backsides, let’s remember that it is easy to criticise, let us not (from our armchairs) undermine the sufferings and sacrifices of all of those that were affected by this most dreadful war.

#34

My Parents never saw fruit for the whole war, the family had to get by with rationing. My parents went to school with gas masks.

The Luftwaffe in all its wisdom dropped a very large bomb(forget the size) in a field next to my dads house, had it exploded (it Didn’t) there would no longer of been a dads house and dad was in the house at time.

Alot of my family worked in shipyards and these got a fair few visits at night from Hinkels and Dorniers.

My mom missed abit of school because the school soughta got bombed so I completely relate to your statement about all those who suffered.

The British public got in personally up until 41, not the commonwealth.

#35

The Luftwaffe would have had to have defeated the RAF, which it didn’t. If it had defeated the RAF, a much reduced Luftwaffe would have not found itself in a target-rich environment as the RN would have been intermingled with the invasion crafts. The RN, on the other hand, would have been in a target-rich environment. The German Airborne forces would have been cut off in Britain and dealt with.

The losses of men and materiel suffered by German forces would have seriously jeopardised their attampts against Russia. As had been the effect of the attrition suffered by the Luftwaffe pilots during the Battle of Britain.

#36

Simple fact of the matter is, the Luftwaffe were engaging the RAF on home territory. With a rather long patch of water between the fight and home.

They arrived fatigued, got shot up and then had to get home. It was always going to be a hard fight.

#37

I agree in part. Let’s not forget that the Chain Home (Radar) units offered Dowding an invisible wall of defense roughly six miles high and one hundred miles deep. One of the major benefits of this, was that the RAF were not required to fly Combat Air Patrols, which would have probably been rather ineffective in comparison. The air controllers, trained to vector in Dowding’s fighters by use of the ‘Tizzy Angle’ - This was based on the “principle of equal angles”: at any stage of the interception, a line could be drawn between the intercepting and attacking aircraft, which was the base of an isosceles triangle; the prolongation of the attacker’s course was the second side of the angle; and the course to be given to the interceptor the third.

In one instance during preliminary training a controller saw that a mistake had been made in the interceptor courses. There was no time to work out a new Tizzy Angle. The controller corrected by eye and the pilot made the kill. It was deduced from this that an experienced fighter controller would do much of his work by instinct. It was found that the best controllers could manage four interceptions simultaneously.

It was thanks to this system and other electronic defences that the RAF pilots were able to rest between sorties and, indeed, be vectored onto their tagets without the need for prolonged patrols which would have had the same effect on them as described by 1000YDS above.

I appreciate that there is a thread which discusses the Radar, but I thought it appropriate to include my comments here.

#38

Most of my family are English and they too suffered the same deprivations as you describe. As did many thousands of others. My uncles fought in every theatre that British troops were involved in, including all of the airborne operations (from North Africa and culminating in Norway) and as a part of the Black Cats Division (as well as serving as Chindits) in Burma. As did thousands and thousands of others.

#39

Luftwaffe had a absolute air superiority till the end of 1942 in the Russia becouse in 1941 Germans destroyed practically all the soviet aviation.
Thus i/m seriously doubt that the Battle of Britain had a REAL influence to the Germans Air Force in Russia. Thou the material loses of Germany were a great but they were capable to restore it till the Barbarossa has begin.

Cheers.

#40

The reason they had air superiorty was they had managed to destroy a large part of the Russian Air Force on the ground. Stalin played quite a decisive role in the destruction of his own Air Force (and other Forces) too.

The Luftwaffe of the time was the largest and most advanced of the worlds air forces. It had to be, it was integral to the whole Blitzkrieg concept of operations. I think they had more aircraft dedicated to Close Air Support (ie the Junkers JU-87 Stuka) than some of the other Air Forces had planes.

When they headed East, they faced an technologically out classed (although numerically larger) and badly led force.

Badly led from the top (Stalin was crackerjack) and down to the bottom. Not neccesarily a bad reflection on those forced in to positions they were un-trained and inexperienced for (ie the young Lts who ended up as Company or Bn commanders) but a problem never the less. Esp when you inclue the many Aicraft and vehicels destroyed whilst sitting ducks during the initial advance.

The Battle of Britian, did affect the Russian front. It had to. Cause and effect. Fuel, bombs, ammunition, Airframes, stores and personnel dedicated to the attack and bombing campaign on Britian, meant they weren’t going East. It is that simple.

Had the British forces been bombed in to insignificance (and they could have been) then more troops would have been directed East. Likewise, had the Eastern front not turned in to the quagmire it had done, then perhaps another attempt on Britain would have been attempted.