While the reich would have appeared to be in a strong position in late 1940 this may be deceiving because of low production of tanks, planes, guns, etc. Such items are important in war and Germany failed to mobilize for war. German production of these items should have been much higher. Such action seems totally inexplicable for a country that is at war.
Not so inexplicable. They were champions of the Blitzkieg. Therefore they didn’t anticipate a long protracted war (although some might), hence being unprepared for such (Spring clothing in a Russian winter).
As mentioned previously, Germany re-armed in breadth not depth.
Goering was one heavyweight (in both senses of the word) significant who believed the Eastern Campaigne to be folly. He also didn’t think the Luftwaffe could defeat the RAF.
Whethere this was added by him later, in hindsight, is debatalbe.
You might know this already, anyway: a cerain Major Schmid of the Abwher knew, as did many German bureaucrats and fighting men, that Hitler and Goering, though formidable, were avid for good news and readily angred by bad. Since obviously the Luftwaffe was vastly superior to any other air force, for a long time Major Schmid could conscientiously hand out only good news.
Schmid was required to assess the air strengths of Poland, Russia and Great Britain. He managed to get out a long report about Britain, Studie Blaue (Blue Study), about the Royal Air Force and about British air defense and bomber strength. One of his sources was Luftwaffe General Erhard Milch, who had made a successful official visit to England in 1937, when he had inspected RAF units and some of the air industry’s factories and shadow factories. Milch, who, as you know,was next in seniority to Goering, had been impressed. Milch had gone so far as to say that in time the Luftwaffe might find the RAF a hard nut to crack (Goering was reported to be furious).
Throughout the Battle of Britain Studie Blaue held its place as a standard german text book. There was no mention in it of the new methods of warning, communication, and command that had been developed by the British, though Schmid must have had some indication of this when he put the report together.
I don’t dispute that. I obviously did not express myself vey well.
The Luftwaffe was reduced during the Battle of Britain and, yes, they were able to manufacture more aircraft. And if, as you point out, they were able to make good their losses, this does not take them to a level which they would have been at if they had not had those said losses. However, they also lost many pilots. One of the reasons for their failure at Stalingrad was the Luftwaffe’s inability to provide and maintain adequate air cover and supply when they came up against the Soviet air defences ringing the city.
As 1000YS commented, there is cause and effect. Sometimes the effect can stretch far beyond what is immediately obvious, that is one of the reasons I think it futile to discuss ‘who made the greater contribution’ on the other thread.
Didn’t know the details of that, but yes, I did know that MANY of the top ranking Nazis didn’t like to receive bad news, or even news that wasn’t what they expected.
Hitler was said to climb the walls many times when the British or Russians (early on) dared to do something he hadn’t thought of or thought was impossible. ie the bombing of hte Reichs home.
This carried on down the ranks. The SS’s brutal slayings of British and French soldiers fighters during their retreat to Dunkirk was, beleived to be at any rate, partly due to the fact that they dared to stand before them (and gave good account of themselves).
Yes, another good example of cause-and-effect.
On a happy note, some of Hitlers more barking tactics came from these fits of rage. Committing many of his men and supplies to futile revenge operations, that cost him more than it cost the Allies.
Many atrocities also emerged, on Hitlers personel orders such as the “Commando Order” in Oct 1942 and the execution (read murder) of most of the men who broke out from Stalag Luft III, 24 March 1944, during the Great Escape.
The Commando Order (often held by Royal Marine Commandos and Commando trained men of the Royal Navy, Army, RAF and other forces as a badge of honour) was given in answer to The order was a death sentence for any Commando participating in a raid who fell into the hands of German forces. There were strict controls over copying and retaining the order on file and above all order the was under “no circumstances to fall into enemy hands.”
Hitler’s infamous Commando Order and the covering minute from German Army HQ.
The Fuhrer SECRET
No. 003830/42g.Kdos.OWK/Wst F.H. Qu 18.10.1942
12 copies Copy No.12.
For a long time now our opponents have been employing in their conduct of the war, methods which contravene the International Convention of Geneva. The members of the so-called Commandos behave in a particularly brutal and underhand manner; and it has been established that those units recruit criminals not only from their own country but even former convicts set free in enemy territories. From captured orders it emerges that they are instructed not only to tie up prisoners, but also to kill out-of-hand unarmed captives who they think might prove an encumbrance to them, or hinder them in successfully carrying out their aims. Orders have indeed been found in which the killing of prisoners has positively been demanded of them.
In this connection it has already been notified in an Appendix to Army Orders of 7.10.1942. that in future, Germany will adopt the same methods against these Sabotage units of the British and their Allies; i.e. that, whenever they appear, they shall be ruthlessly destroyed by the German troops.
I order, therefore:-
From now on all men operating against German troops in so-called Commando raids in Europe or in Africa, are to be annihilated to the last man. This is to be carried out whether they be soldiers in uniform, or saboteurs, with or without arms; and whether fighting or seeking to escape; and it is equally immaterial whether they come into action from Ships and Aircraft, or whether they land by parachute. Even if these individuals on discovery make obvious their intention of giving themselves up as prisoners, no pardon is on any account to be given. On this matter a report is to be made on each case to Headquarters for the information of Higher Command.
- Should individual members of these Commandos, such as agents, saboteurs etc., fall into the hands of the Armed Forces through any means - as, for example, through the Police in one of the Occupied Territories - they are to be instantly handed over to the S.D.
To hold them in military custody - for example in P.O.W. Camps, etc., - even if only as a temporary measure, is strictly forbidden.
This order does not apply to the treatment of those enemy soldiers who are taken prisoner or give themselves up in open battle, in the course of normal operations, large scale attacks; or in major assault landings or airborne operations. Neither does it apply to those who fall into our hands after a sea fight, nor to those enemy soldiers who, after air battle, seek to save their lives by parachute.
I will hold all Commanders and Officers responsible under Military Law for any omission to carry out this order, whether by failure in their duty to instruct their units accordingly, or if they themselves act contrary to it.
(Sgd) A Hitler
HEADQUARTERS OF THE ARMY SECRET
No. 551781/42G.K. Chefs W.F.St/Qu. F.H. Qu. 19/10/42
22 Copies Copy No.21.The enclosed Order from the Fuhrer is forwarded in connection with destruction of enemy Terror and Sabotage-troops.
This order is intended for Commanders only and is in no circumstances to fall into Enemy hands.
Further distribution by receiving Headquarters is to be most strictly limited.
The Headquarters mentioned in the Distribution list are responsible that all parts of the Order, or extracts taken from it, which are issued are again withdrawn and, together with this copy, destroyed.
Chief of Staff of the Army
(Sgd) JODL
from http://www.combinedops.com/Hitlers_Commando_Order.htm
Hitler was known to have particular animosity for Allied (more specifically British) commandos, and to an extent paratroopers (who were very effective in North Africa where their Red Devils nickname was coined by the Afrika Corps) due to their unpredictability, their effect on German morale, their successes in Europe, Norway and North Africa, and his inability to devise any worthwhile countermeasures.
Raiding escalated in 1942 and included the large scale raids at St. Nazaire and Dieppe.
It is widely believed that an occurrence at Dieppe and on a small raid on the Channel Island of Sark brought Hitler’s rage to a head.
Basically a number of prisoners were taken and tied up. Unfortunatly one started to shout out to raise the alarm, and was thus shot. Whilst it can be argued that the shot gave the game away as much as the shouthing Commandos did not routinely kill their prisoners. The Commandos retreated to their boats taking their prisoners with them, for interrogation. Several managed to make a run for it, and were also mown down.
Hitler released information that Commandos were ordered to kill prisoners, in order to justify his own order.
Hitler knew the order was illegal, esp as it specified that they were to be shot in uniform or out of it, (in civvies they could be seen as spies) and that the professional army would not like the order. Thus the secrecy and strict warnings of non compliance.
After the war, German officers who carried out the illegal executions under the Commando Order were found guilty at war crimes trials, including the Nuremberg Trials. The Commando Order was one of the specifications in the charge against Generaloberst (Colonel-General) Jodl (who signed the above copy), who was convicted and hanged.
Of the 76 men who escaped from Stalag Luft III (The Great Escape), 3 made it home to the UK. 23 were recaptured and sent back to Sagan. Hitler personally ordered the execution of the other 50 men.
The commandant of Stalag Luft III, Lindeiner, was court-martialed by the Gestapo for not preventing the escape.
Morale among the prisoners was low when the executions became common knowledge and few were keen to attempt further escape attempts.
Although only 3 men managed to reach safety and 50 men were murdered, the escape caused havoc among the Germans. Thousands of police, Hitler Youth members and soldiers were diverted from wartime duties to search for the escapees.
Urns containing the ashes of the 50 who were executed were brought to the camp. British airmen constructed the memorial (below) to commemorate their deaths. This was allowed, maybe even helped, by the commandant of the time, Lindeiner, who was horrified by the turn of events.
His court-martial was a similar farce. He had called in external agencies to check the camp only weeks prior to the break, as he suspected a break out was on the cards. They found nothing. The inspectors were Gestapo, and it there had been rumblings for quite a few months that the rules were changing regarding escapees, it is conceivable the Gestapo wanted a mass break.
SECRET STATE POLICE-STATE POLICE OFFICE COLOGNE
Branch Office, Aachen
To be transmitted in secret-To be handled as a secret government matter.
DOR. BERLIN NUE 19 507 March 4, 1944 1430-WF-
To all State Police Directorates except PRAGUE and BRUNN-
Inspectors of the Security Police and of the Security Service.
Subject: Measures to be taken against captured escaped prisoners of war who are officers or not working non-commissioned officers, except British and American prisoners of war.The Supreme Command of the Army has ordered as follows:
Every captured escaped prisoner of war who is an officer or a not working non-commissioned officer, except British and American prisoners of war, is to be turned over to the Chief of the Security Police and of the Security Service under the classification “Step III” regardless of whether the escape occurred during a transport, whether it was a mass escape or an individual one.
Since the transfer of the prisoners of war to the security police and security service may not become officially known to the outside under any circumstances other prisoners of war may by no means be informed of the capture. The captured prisoners are to be reported to the Army Information Bureau as “escaped and not captured”. Their mail is to be handled accordingly. Inquiries of representatives of the Protective Power of the International Red Cross, and of other aid societies will be given the same answer.
If escaped British and American prisoners of war who are officers or not working non-commissioned officers, respectively, are captured they are to be detained at first outside the prisoner of war camps and out of sight of prisoners of war; if Army owned buildings are unavailable they are to be placed in police custody. In every instance the Corps Area Command will request speedily the Supreme Command of the Army (Chief, Prisoner of War Section) for a decision as to whether they are to be turned over to the Chief of the Security Police and of the Security Service.
In reference to this, I order as follows:
The State Police. Directorates will accept the captured escaped officer prisoners of war from the prisoner of war camp commandants and will transport them to the Concentration Camp Mauthausen following the procedure previously used, unless the circumstances render a special transport imperative. The prisoners of war are to be put in irons on the transport-not on the station if it is subject to view by the public. The camp commandant at Mauthausen is to be notified that the transfer occurs within the scope of the action “Kugel” [translator’s note: the literal translation of “Kugel” is "bullet)’] The State Police Directorates will submit semi-yearly reports on these transfers giving merely the figures, the first report being due on 5 July 1944 (sharp). The report is to be made under the reference “Treatment of Captured Escaped Prisoners of War who are officers within the Scope of the Action ‘Kugel’.” In the case of special events, reports are to be submitted immediately. The State Police Directorates will maintain exact records.
For the sake of secrecy, the Supreme Command of the Armed Force has been requested to inform the prisoner of war camps to turn the captured prisoners over to the local State Police Office and not to send them directly to Mauthausen.
Captured escaped British and American officers and not working non-commissioned officers are to be detained in police custody in a city in which a State Police office located provided the Army has no suitable quarters. In view of the existing crowding of police prisons, the State Police officer will accept captured prisoners only if the Army actually does not dispose of any suitable space. The prisoner of war camp commandants are to be contacted in reference to their quarters immediately after the receipt of this order. In the interest of the secrecy of this order, confinement outside of police jails, e.g. in Labor Education Camps is not permissible.
If escaped prisoners of war who are officers and not working non-commissioned officers except British and American prisoners of war are captured by police authorities, reasons of practicability render it unnecessary to return the prisoner to the prisoner of war camp commandant once the facts have been clarified adequately. The prisoner of war camp is to be informed of the capture and is to be requested for a transfer under the classification 'Step III". Captured escaped British and American prisoners of war who are officers and non-commissioned officers are always to be turned over to the Army.
The city and county police authorities are not to be informed of this order.
Chief of the Security Police and of the Security Service
IV D5d-B.NR. 61/44 GRS.-For the Chief-(signed) Mueller.
SS General.
Branch Office Aachen. Aachen 6 March 1944
I V D No. 26/44 g Rs
- Two extract copies were made of this order.
1st Copy to IV A-6 March.
2nd Copy to IV D-2 March.
- To be filed with IV C.-IV 3 Noted.
ROSCHER 19 June
[two illegible signatures]
From http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/ww2/bulletdecree.html
The allies were able find justice at the end of the war for those who had followed this decree also. The escapees were not just doing it for laughs either. It must be remembered that for each escape, 1000s of troops, Hitler Jugend, locals and police were tied up searching. My the time of the escape Germany was taking a nightly pounding by the Allied Air Forces and were powerless to respond.
The nazi high command were livid.
From Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels
But in such cases who is in the right? The murderers who expect humane treatment after their cowardly attacks or the victims of those foul and cowardly attacks who in their rage seek revenge . . . We owe it to our people, which is defending itself with so much honesty and courage, that it not be allowed to become human game to be hunted down by the enemy.
Hmmm, what goes around comes around. Didn’t the Luftwaffe bomb British Cities?
Goebbels also claimed that Allied airmen could not claim to be following superior orders when bombing Germany, because they were guilty of war crimes. During this time he implied that new methods had been adopted concerning downed airmen and POWs (Bullet decree and maybe the older Commando Order). Nazi propaganda convinced many Germans that Allied pilots were inferior beings who heartlessly attacked women and children.
At around these times the Nazis were able to incite (probably quite easily too) the citizens to lynch downed airmen and POWs found.
From http://www.libarts.ucok.edu/swssr/Journal/fox1.htm
SS Major Johannes Post showed no remorse at the trial, because he believed the English pilots who devastated Germany from the air were no better than other races of people which the Nazis had killed. Ernst Kaltenbrunner, head of the Gestapo, stated that it was correct for Germans to hate downed airmen to the point of killing them since the fliers had caused so much hardship and suffering for the citizens. The atmosphere of escalation strengthened the outward expression of hatred by many Germans; however, the Nazi regime also faced internal struggles which endangered its absolute rule.
The Germans believed the mass escape of seventy-six officers from Stalag Luft III posed a threat to the German state. In 1943, the number of foreign workers and POWs escaping rose dramatically. Most workers fled to avoid the bombs and Nazi police. Hitler and Himmler feared the escaping prisoners would lead to an uprising of foreign workers. The message which ordered the Stalag Luft III killings cited the need to stop escapes, because they presented a “real danger to the security of the state.”
In the early spring of 1944, individual acts of resistance and sabotage increased as the Russians advanced and the Allies prepared to invade in the West. German officials believed the laborers would begin an uprising when the Allied landings took place. They even considered the possibility that the Allies would possibly drop weapons or leaders to resistance groups; however, the most available source of leadership existed among escaping POWs, especially Allied officers. The men who escaped on 24 March 1944 from Stalag Luft III were not in uniform, but they were disguised in civilian clothes converted from their uniforms. The Gestapo believed the prisoners escaped in order to become “saboteurs, spies, or enemy agents . . . and that it was not only legal but necessary in the interest of German security to shoot them.”
The Germans knew that resistance groups sometimes aided escaping POWs. Escapees often attempted to join resistance groups, as had happened with a group of Russian prisoners who the Gestapo discovered and infiltrated between February and May 1944. The preparation of two hundred POWs in Stalag Luft III for an escape resembled the initial stages of the Russian organization. The Germans believed a connection existed with resistance groups operating in Czechoslovakia. Indeed, the Germans caught twelve escapees at the Czech border.
Resistance efforts in Czechoslovakia remained a sensitive issue with Nazi officials when the escape from Stalag Luft III occurred. On 27 May 1942, members of the Czech resistance, who had been parachuted into Czechoslovakia by the RAF, killed Reichsfuhrer Reinhard Heydrich as he drove through the streets of Prague. Following the attack the assailants remained in hiding, and the city of Prague became the focus of Nazi terror. During a crackdown after the assassination, the Germans caught Roger Bushell hiding with a Czech family. The Gestapo took him into custody as a suspected saboteur. When seventy-six prisoners escaped on 24 March 1944, the Germans became fearful of renewed resistance in the Czech territories. The Gestapo shot seven escapees in Czechoslovakia, including men with any connection with the Czech people. Flight Lieutenant Ernst Valenta, a Czech national and pilot in the RAF, and Squadron Leader Tom Kirby-Green, a former member of a Czech unit in the RAF, were among the victims. The killings exemplified the Nazis’ fear of a domestic rebellion and ensured their retention of power.
On 23 June 1944 C in-C West requested instructions re-defining the scope of the commando order, because of the extensive landings in Normandy, it had become difficult to decide which paratroops should be considered sabotage troops under the terms of the order, and which should be considered as engaged in normal combat operations. The question was answered by an order of 25 June 1944, one copy of which was signed by Keitel, reaffirming the full force of the original order, all paratroops were to be considered sabotage troops.
The police had orders not to protect the fliers, nor to punish civilians for lynching them. A proposal was considered to order the shooting without court-martial of enemy airmen. who had been forced down after engaging in specified “acts of terror.” It is not certain that the order was ever issued, but it is certain that Keitel and Jodl knew of the lynchings, did nothing to prevent them and in fact considered giving them official justification.
It is clearly shown that the Nazi nuts were the generally the ones that commited and ordered such attrocities, mainly due their own inability to do anything else than bully those they had at their mercy. They were losing the war, knew it, and were desparate to hold on to their power at ALL costs. Which included, it seems, their souls.
Whilst the Citizens could be forgiven their actions against airmen and POWs on the grounds of circumstance and active encouragment, the Germans professional forces steered clear, as much as they could of getting involved with such activities.
Very interesting. I hadn’t seen this before although, naturally, I knew of the order. I might add, that the mention of British Commandos killing their prisoners was not just an attempt to justify his order, but also to persuade any of his soldiers that were queasy about carrying out such orders, to do so.
Imagine if Hitler had been more astute and in control of himself than he was, as some of his generals were, then the world would really have been in trouble. Luckily (though unfortunate for many), he was blinded by his passions.
Okay it was deemed Britain would require a minumum of 52 squadrons of fighters to be able to defend great Britian, Air power was the key to with holding an invasion, Britains Army was in no shape to contest the Germans and all through out WW2 it is written that Naval power is almost useless when the enemy has control of the Air.
The Aeroplane changed naval engagements forever as it was found in WW2.
It fair to say that had the RN got amongst the invasion force yes havoc was a certainty, but she had to get there first. but still German pilots were skilled and could of still picked off English ships, but one has to doubt she would of got there in tact. She wouldnt of retreated once the Luftwaffe challanged her passage to the invasion force as there was no other battle to survive for, England fell and no RN.
The RN would of had to sail at night to challange the invasion otherwise she would of had non stop bombing. Don’t Know of any Naval battle in WW2 where ships survived this, let alone from a very strong Luftwaffe,based very close to the battle.
It is not as if the Germans had a fair way to go to cross the channel, nor Britian much warning of the invasion fleet sailing.
After the failed first phase of Operation Sea lion the German Industrial machine had 1 year at its highest capacity to build its war machine before the date it hit Russia, so losses of material in Operation Sea lion were inconsequential.
Had Britian fell, there was No Nth African campaign, nor A luftwaffe haveing to be left in france, nor a mass force to repel any invasion.
However the Germans would of had an interesting time with the English public, probably more so than any other of her occupations, but the Germans had a few tricks up her sleeve to deal with resistance activities.
Everything has consequence, it may only take a year to knock up a new airframe, but how long for the training of a new crew? And experience.
I think there were no any special interesting time if Britain would occuped by the Germans - jews were sended to Aushvitz, Ireland and Scotland got the independence and would help the SS and Gestapo to suppress the British resistence.
New Waffen-SS division like the “Great Ireland” should be sended to the Estern front to destroy the bolshevism.
Sorry guys for fantasy
Indeed I thank the God for the Britain didn’t losed the war in 1940. We got the chance to surrvive.
Cheers.
I appreciate your argument. There was even a time that I was of the same mind, but further reading and consideration changed my mind.
If I’m able to locate anything I’ll post it.
Only one or two slight problems.
Ireland already has independence, so if they wanted could have formed an SS division. But they preferred to fight as part of the British army. Any one who tells you that the IRA was a factor has spent too much time with the old and bold drinking vast quantities of the black stuff. People also forget that the Nazis where bombing the east end of London, Glasgow and Liverpool, were do you think the Irish lived.
As for the sweaty socks, there may be animosity between us at times but the jocks have nothing to gain by replacing an inconvenient neighbour with a dangerous one.
Many foreigners see some rubbish in the press and believe it. Braveheart is Hollywood crape of the highest order, with as much basis on reality as the thought that come crunch time Scotland would side with the Nazis.
Hi 2nd of foot. Nice to meet you again.
I/m far from the discussing the IRA-problem is here.
But it seems you don’t know what the Germans did in occuped territories.Firstly they formed the police units from the native colloborationists ( and there were a lot of voluntares for this in any state). They needed the the instrument fo the “dirty work” - to execute the civilians, suppresing the partisans and simply help the Nazy to make a race purges and ets. The EVERYBODY was busy - ukrain Waffen-SS killed the polish civilians, Baltic police murdered the jews, ukrains and belorussia. The whole idyll
And i think your are rather naive to suppose in occuped Britain nobody would colloborate with Nazis.IN EVERY STATE tere were a certain percentage of people who could to help the nazy couse its views or simply couse they like to kill. Even if Frances ( who widely known as the “patriots”) a lot of people prefered to fight for the Germany. There were about 60 000 of franch who died for Reich(!!!) and only 20 000 who were killed , fighting in resistence.
So i think the your statement- the IRA prefered to fight with Britain is true but this is absolutly not mean the some of members of IRA could not to colloborate with Nazy. In USSR the Ukrain and Belorussian also fought with Red army, but when the Germans has come - about million of them prefered to help the Germans.
The Nazy was the Experts of separatism of state whoich were occuped by them. Even cossack pretended to own “state” in the south of USSR.
Many foreigners see some rubbish in the press and believe it. Braveheart is Hollywood crape of the highest order
Oh yea, the Braveheart was the good film of the amazing australian Mell Gibson.
I think this is not crape - this is the politic. In fact in the USA there a lot of irelands ( Irish lobby) who are get enjoy of such films. They forced its policy.
One of the interesting example of this -the “The Devil`s Own” . ( where the irish terrorists Bred Pitt was present as the “hero”) - this is the tupical example of US policy of “holding the britain on the hook”.
Personaly i think this is provocative to make the hero form the terrorist, but its obvious the Holliwood ( i.e. the some of US ruling elite) don’t think so;)
, with as much basis on reality as the thought that come crunch time Scotland would side with the Nazis.
Again this is too naive to suppose the Scotland wouldnt independent under nazy occupation.Look to the East- Poland,Ukrain , Belorussai and even Russia it must be devided on a big number of “independent” states. This is common Nazy politic.to the its enemies.
Cheers.
I think brad in the devils own was presented more of a victim than a hero.
After all he was constantly pittied by harrison ford, and of course slotted his mate… a cop.
Even the mere fact that ford didn’t blow the fcuker away at the end shows how much he pittied him.
Brave Heart, The Patriot, Devils Own. Just the usual Hollywood dribble in shaping history. Not unlike Objective Burma, with Errol Flynn.
Mel Gibson! Don’t get me started. Born in America. Father extreme Roman Catholic. Didn’t like the way the Roman church in America embraced Vatican 2, so emigrated to Australia. Mel returns full of his anti-British passions The British are Protestants) which suits the American model of Britain - Tyrany of King George and all that, like he hasn’t been dead for a couple of hundred years. No coincidence that ‘The Patriot’ was released in America on Independance Day.
Quite seperately, the IRA fight for the British?.. now that’s a fantasy from another dimension!
Stay cool, gentlemen.
Of couse Brad was the “victim”, who is doubt, don’t the Holliwood to do a open anti-British propoganda
But when this alone terrorist fuc… the american mafiosi like Rembo he don’t look like the “victim”. It look like the romantic “hero” who firght for the “freedom”. He has the affection of americans audiences.
And when the British policment says the Ford that this terrorist is gult in killiing of British civilians - He simply don’t believe him.
IMO this is the hidden anti-british propoganda.
Cheers.