Holding Them Off!

I think I caught some of that a number of years ago. Was that the one that had Tony Bonner starring in it, without Skippy?

Also, was it the one where they wore ladies, silk undergarments in order to prevent lice?

If it was, I agree it didn’t appear to have any hidden agenda, and was rather good…though it would probably have been better if Skippy had starred in it! :slight_smile:

I thought another good Ozzy series, for portraying them at war, was The Sullivans.

I also enjoyed the mini-series when it first came out in 1985. I didn’t see any hidden agenda either.

More information:

Anzacs (1985)
http://www.napoleonguide.com/dvd_anzacs.htm

http://imdb.com/title/tt0088479/

http://www.learmedia.ca/product_info.php/cPath/8/products_id/958

http://dstore.com.au/DVD/Anzacs/640997.html
(Australian version - full series)
513 Minutes - over 8 hours
Region 4 - DVD - Suitable for Australia and New Zealand

http://anzacs-dvd.com/
(US sales)
Only $34.95
Six DVDs packaged in an album-style case
Free shipping to any US address
US sales only, *DVD+R only

http://www.amazon.com/Anzacs-George-Miller/dp/B00000F25O/sr=11-1/qid=1165107054/ref=sr_11_1/102-3240256-7489714

http://www.amazon.com/Anzacs-George-Miller/dp/cast-crew/B00000F25O/ref=imdbdppd_castcrew_1/104-6098482-1191908?ie=UTF8&qid=1165107054

Full Cast List

Andrew Clarke as Cpl. Martin Barrington
Megan Williams as Nurse Kate Baker
Jon Blake as Pvt. Flanagan
Tony Bonner as Lt. Harold Armstrong
Alec Wilson as Sgt. Alec ‘Pudden’ Parsons
Jonathan Sweet as C.S.M. Bill Harris
Jim Holt as Pvt. 'Dingo Gordon
Edmund Pegge as Captain Young
Howard Bell as Cyril Barnshaw
Noel Trevarthen as General Sir Douglas Haig
Michael Edgar as Machine Gun Capt
Peter Browne as Carter
Tony Cornwill as Karl Johanson
Diana Greentree as Mrs. Collins
Wayne Jarratt as Charlie Upton
Bill Kerr as General Monash
Ilona Rodgers as Lady Thea Barrington
Paul Hogan as Pvt. Pat Cleary
Mark Hembrow as Pvt. Dick Baker
Christopher Cummins as Pvt. Roly Collins
Shane Briant as Sgt. Wilhelm ‘Kaiser’ Schmidt
Patrick Ward as Sgt. Tom McArthur
Peter Finlay as L.C.P.T. Bluey
David Bradshaw as Keith Murdoch
Vincent Ball as Sir Rupert Barrington
Rhys McConnochie as David Lloyde George
Rod Hewitt as Bayonet Major
Vivean Gray as Matron
Robert Coleby as Reverend George Lonsdale
Kylie Foster as Claudine
Karl Hansen as Erick Johanson
Sheila Kennelly as Mrs. Baker
Elaine Lee as Madam
Leah Stevenson as Marie

Megan Williams, mmmm.

Definitely on topic: “Holding them off” :slight_smile:

Oh yeah…he,he. :slight_smile:

Hi 32Bravo,

I see it as a flawed strategy. Although, I am not an expert on the Italian campaign.

Quote from below:
[b]"The British, especially Winston Churchill, advocated their traditional naval-based peripheral strategy. With a relatively small army, but great naval power, the traditional British strategy against a continental enemy was to fight as part of a coalition and mount small peripheral operations designed to gradually weaken the enemy.

The United States, with a far larger army, favored a more direct strategy of fighting the main force of the German army in northern Europe. The ability to launch such a campaign depended on first winning the Battle of the Atlantic.[/b]"

Personally, I think the allies should have invaded Sardinia and then Corsica after the capture of Sicily on 17 August 1943. They could then have used Corsica as a springboard to invade southern France. I think that an earlier invasion of southern France would have tied down more German troops in proportion to allied than was accomplished by invading Italy.

In contrast, in Italy a larger allied force slogged its way up a narrow, mountainous peninsula defended by a proportionally smaller German force in a long campaign which did not conclude until April 29, 1945 - just over a week before the war in Europe ended.

Had the allies invaded southern France through Sardinia and Corsica earlier on, they would probably have drawn a larger proportion of the German army from other fronts. It would also have put the allies in a position to thrust deeper into France and/or thrust into northern Italy through the Po Valley and possibly sever the Italian peninsula from the rest of occupied Europe. This probably would have affected German preparations along the Atlantic wall by drawing troops further south. In addition, German troops might still have been held in southern Italy to guard against a possible invasion from Sicily.

With an allied force already in southern France in 1943, the 1944 allied invasion of northern France may have unfolded quite differently with more German troops tied up further south.

Maybe it could have helped end the war earlier. Just my opinion.

Brief summary:

Allied invasion of Italy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Theatre_of_World_War_II
Successes in the North African desert left the Allies in complete control of the Mediterranean’s southern shore and using this as a springboard Allied Forces Headquarters AFHQ started to plan an attack into what Winston Churchill referred to as the “soft underbelly” of Europe.

The Allies first action was the capture of the island of Sicily, called Operation Husky, on 10 July 1943. This brought to the fire a growing dissatisfaction with Mussolini. He was deposed on July 25, 1943, by the Fascist Grand Council, and placed under house arrest in an isolated mountain resort. His replacement, General Pietro Badoglio, negotiated an armistice with the Allies on September 8, 1943. Nazi Germany moved quickly into the confused situation, disarmed Italian formations and prepared to defend Italy on their own.

Allied troops landed in mainland Italy on September 3, 1943, crossing from Sicily. Further landings were made at Salerno and Taranto on September 9. For more information see: Allied invasion of Italy. This led to Italy, already angry at Mussolini, to join the Western Allies.

A German commando raid called “Operation Oak” (Unternehmen Eiche)) and led by Otto Skorzeny rescued Mussolini. The Germans installed him as the “Head of State” and “Minister of Foreign Affairs” of a Nazi puppet state in northern Italy called the Italian Social Republic.

Germany had built a number of defensive lines through the mountains; the main one was called the Winter Line. The Allies came up against this in the winter of 1943 and were unable to break through. Amphibious landings at Anzio were made in an attempt to bypass the line: however the landing forces were contained by the Germans, and the Gustav Line (the core part of the Winter Line defenses) remained intact. Finally the line was broken in May 1944 in the fourth major attempt in four months to open the road to Rome dominated by strategically positioned historic Benedictine Abbey at Monte Cassino.

The Allies finally entered Rome on June 4, 1944, two days before the landings in Normandy. Germany regrouped at the Gothic Line further north. After a landing in southern France in August, 1944 to threaten the German flank, on September 10, 1944 British Commonwealth forces started the attack on the line. The offensive by Allied and some Italian forces continued until Germany surrendered in Italy on April 29, 1945 two days after Mussolini’s capture.

Italian Campaign (World War II)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Campaign_(World_War_II)

Even prior to victory in the North African Campaign, there was disagreement between the Allies on the best strategy to defeat the Axis.

The British, especially Winston Churchill, advocated their traditional naval-based peripheral strategy. With a relatively small army, but great naval power, the traditional British strategy against a continental enemy was to fight as part of a coalition and mount small peripheral operations designed to gradually weaken the enemy. The United States, with a far larger army, favored a more direct strategy of fighting the main force of the German army in northern Europe. The ability to launch such a campaign depended on first winning the Battle of the Atlantic.

The strategic disagreement was fierce, with the US service chiefs arguing for an invasion of France as early as possible, while their British counterparts advocated a Mediterranean strategy. The American staff believed that a full-scale invasion of France as soon as possible was necessary to end the war in Europe, and that no operations should be undertaken which might delay that effort. The British argued that the presence of large numbers of troops trained for amphibious landings in the Mediterranean made a limited-scale invasion possible and useful. Eventually the US and British political leadership made the decision to commit to an invasion of France in 1944, but with a lower-priority Italian campaign reflecting Roosevelt’s desire that to keep U.S. troops active in the European theater during 1943 and his attraction to the idea of eliminating Italy from the war. It was clear that the Italian people had never been enthusiastic about their participation in the war, and it was hoped that an invasion would knock them out of the war, or provide at least a major propaganda blow. The elimination of Italy as an enemy would also enable the Royal Navy to completely dominate the Mediterranean Sea, massively improving communications with Egypt, the Far East, the Middle East and India. It would also mean that the Germans would have to transfer troops from the Eastern Front to defend Italy and the entire southern coast of France, thus aiding the Soviets.

Once Italy surrendered in September 1943, on the eve of the Allied landings on the Italian mainland, a new strategic rationale evolved: this was to tie down as many German forces in Italy as possible so that they could not be used to reinforce the German defences in northwest Europe… (it continues)

http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/P-38MTO.html
The Luftwaffe offered a much stiffer air defense over Sardinia. A huge brawl developed over the island on July 30th. AAF P-40’s tangled with a large concentration of Bf-109’s flown by young, inexperienced pilots. The P-40’s were credited with the destruction of 21 of the Messerschmitts for the loss of only one of their own. Post war analysis seems to indicate that only five or six 109’s fell to the Americans. Although, many others were damaged and several were completely written off. Repeated sweeps over Sardinia by large formations of P-38’s ground down the Luftwaffe, leaving the island virtually defenseless by the end of August. Sardinia was captured shortly after Italy threw in the towel. U.S. forces landed unopposed on September 14, 1943.

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2-3RAF-b1.html

Messina, Sicily, captured by Allied forces August 16, 1943.

End of Sicilian campaign August 17, 1943.

British and Canadian troops landed in southern Italy september 3, 1943.

September 3, 1943 Armistice signed with Italy but not declared until 8 September 1943.

Sardinia - U.S. forces landed unopposed on September 14, 1943.

Corsica was captured October 4, 1943.

Allied invasion of southern France, preceded by an intensive
four-day air bombardment and attacks by airborne troops.
August 15, 1944.

I’m probably going to get shot down in flames, but I have a recollection that Churchill’s original phrase was the “underbelly of Europe” but that it has since become accepted as the “soft underbelly of Europe” through endless repetition. A bit like Bogart’s supposed “Play it again, Sam” in Casablanca when his actual line was “…play it”. Bergman said “Play it, Sam”. Nobody said the oft-quoted line. But that doesn’t alter the fact that everybody thinks Bogart said it, like they think Churchill said ‘soft’.

Why I think it’s useful to determine which phrase he used is that the “soft” component suggests that Churchill was deluded about the task confronting him in Italy. I don’t think he was. It was a choice between going through the front door where the main enemy is and the back door where he isn’t, but you know you’re going to have to fight him once you’re inside. It’s just a question of which door gives you the easier entry for the eventual fight.

Whether the back door Churchill chose was a good idea is an entirely different question, for the reasons already outlined in various posts.

Yes. Things can become confused accross time, and through the fog-of-war. One of the reasons good communications are so important.
1000YS’s graphic display of ‘Holding them off!’ is an excellent example of good communications, which transcend the limitations of language and socio/political frontiers.

Thank you for the links, George.

I was thinking pretty much along the same lines.

The flaw in my thinking, as I see it, was the LOC. It was, obviously, far easier to supply an army accross the Channel, than to go via Gibralter to the S. of F. There could be other factors, but that’s the main one which comes to mind. However, as you have said surely it would have been better to go to the S. of F. rather than Italy? But, then, perhaps that would have provoked a larger German response and, so, failed?

Yes, but is it cricket?

Although I don’t have any problem with the magnificent socio-political frontiers 1000YS has introduced. :slight_smile:

A spectator about to rise from the pool to enjoy tea and cucumber sandwiches while watching the match. A very typical scene at a game of English, village cricket…don’t you know? :cool:

p.s. You’ve been looking at it too much…you ought to be sleeping. :slight_smile:

You’re in a pool in England now? You must be a Scot, as they’re used to cold in their uncovered lower parts. Although they’re more into tossing the caber than a full toss.

As for a typical scene of village cricket, and attempts to preserve it, Lord Denning said it well in his judgment in Miller v. Jackson (1977) Q.B. 966, 976

“In summertime village cricket is the delight of everyone. Nearly every village has its own cricket field where the young men play and the old men watch. In the village of Lintz in County Durham they have their own ground, where they have played these last 70 years. They tend it well. The wicket area is well rolled and mown. The outfield is kept short . . . [y]et now after these 70 years a judge of the High Court has ordered that they must not play there anymore . . . [h]e has done it at the instance of a newcomer who is no lover of cricket.
This newcomer has built . . . a house on the edge of the cricket ground which four years ago was a field where cattle grazed. The animals did not mind the cricket.”

…you ought to be sleeping. :slight_smile:

True, but I’ve been very, very, very good. :slight_smile: Also, there’s still beer in the fridge.

It’s a beautiful day here, today, albeit a little breezy. I’m about to take a dip and then enjoy a few beers in the comfort of the beach hut, at the bottom of the garden - which is decorated with many fine, tropical plants. :cool:

Yeah, well, global warming isn’t all bad. :slight_smile:

I don’t know about that, we’ve just been ‘stonked’ by a hailstorm, but the Sun has returned…not unlike yourself. :smiley:

Aw, gee, at last I am basking in my own light. :smiley:

Well, I suppose it beats lying in your own bullshit? :smiley:

ROFL :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

And this has got what to do with the current topic?

Handbags down, let go of each others hair and if you fancy each other that much get a room.

Okay, Soldier! The handbag is back in the wardrobe! So!..let’s get back on topic!!

There is no argument regarding this topic, the answer is self-evident!
We are here; the Nazis are not; and the world is a freer place because of it!

Once Operation Dynamo was completed, Britain’s leaders new they would win.
Winston, in all his wisdom new that we were to win. It would have been a long slog, but win we would. Winston didn’t ask for American troops. He could muster plenty of manpower from home and the colonies. Where we were lacking at the time was production, hence his rallying cry: “Give us the tools and we will do the job!”.

I don’t think people are aware of how large the British Empire was at the time…literally, the Sun never set on it!
As it turned out, the Japanese changed history. If they had not, the result would have been the defeat of Nazi Germany and a very bankrupt British Empire. Stalin, had he not been involved, which he probably wouldn’t, might have chosen the time of British victory (and exhaustion) to move into Europe. That would have been a mistake, for the US would have never tolerated a communist takeover of Europe (Nazi? yes!..Communist? No!).

All of the other arguments against Britain holding them off, deny, or attempt to subvert, the truth…Britain held them off!

If the Nazis had made a pact with the British, it would have been very much on British terms at the end of a long, hard, slogging match. The Nazis would have been aware of the massive Russian Bear snarling at their Eastern frontiers. The pact would have insisted on them withdrawing from the occupied states of Europe and recompense would have had to have been made.

If anyone thinks this a fantasy?..They’re the fanasists!