How justfiled the Soviet annexation of former Polish territories in 1939 was?

Site Issues 2007 Archive Room
#21

Here is the new German-USSR border as it was agreed in August 1939.
This is a map from “Pravda” newspaper on 27-Sep-1939. Taken from site: http://www.ska.pl/biorytm/historia.htm

And below is the final border from 28-Sep-1939 (taken from Ñòàðûå ãàçåòû : "Ïèîíåðñêàÿ ïðàâäà", 30 ñåíòÿáðÿ 1939ã.). Do you see any difference?

The main difference is Warsaw and Lublin areas that Stalin proposed Germans to take over (to German’s great surprise ). These two districts were practically completely populated by Poles. And officially Stalin did not want to split Poles because it could lead to tension between Germany and USSR in the future.

As you see the census issies were a vital part of the process.

02-1.jpg

#22

Lexa:

As far as I know, there were no officially recognized borders and treaties between Poland and Soviet Russia in 1919. Soviet Russia wasn’t legal successor of Russian Empire. So, it’s difficult to regard Polish campaign of 1919 as formal agression against Russia. But possibly Kiev campaign of Pilsudski was the main reason why Stalin later regarded Poland as enemy.

I am not prepared right now to discuss how legally relation between poland and Soviet Russia should be explained. I need to dig in to this one.

Regarding “formal aggression”… You know officially Vietnam war started because Vietnamese shelled an American ship. :shock:
USSR in 1939 claimed that Polish goverment collapsed and out of control. And they clamed that formally there is no aggression.

Formally or unformally, Polans was an agressive state in 1919. Why deny it?

Btw., many Russian people fought against bolsheviks on the Polish side. And frankly speaking, I don’t know which side I’d prefer to join if I had to choose.

Yes, it is amatter of opinion. You might have supported Poles in 1919. Some others would not.
Some think it was not an Polish agression. Some other do think so.
Who knows there might be a chance that YOU are wrong in this case. Have you ever conciderd this option? :wink:

Sure, we can and we must. You’re right, Igor.

Remember also about other territorial gains by USSR in accordance with secret protocols to the M-R pact. They all can’t be explained by earlier agressions of these countires or by care about some national groups.

Right, they can not be explained by previous aggression. They can be explained by will to collect the land lost during the collapse of the Russian Empier.
And, please, do not discuss other countries in this thread. We will get blown away.

#23

Yes, Poland invaded into lands which were not (mostly) populated by Poles, and finally captured some of these lands. Soviet Russia did the same - invaded lands that were not populated by ethnic Russians and captured them. So they were equally aggressive in this.

Igor, I’m not very well educated in history, and I usually prefer to read historical forums rather than write on them. But as to Polish-Soviet history, I have some knowledge and some opinion. I’ve read various Russian and Polish texts, and I think that both Russian and Polish “patriotic” versions are logically inadequate.

But in this particular topic, I understand the Polish argumentation, and I don’t understand yours, Igor. I admit you maybe right. I’d wish you were right :frowning: Believe me, I’m not happy to blame my country. I’m sad. But let’s try to reason.

When a country is invaded by enemies, it’s always the consequence of its previous policy, previous wars and mistakes. The catastrophe of Poland in 1939 may be considered as a result of mistakes of the Polish policy, and its aggression in the past. As well as the catastrophe of USSR in 1941 is a result of mistakes of the Stalin policy, and of USSR’s aggressiveness.

But despite it, we say that Germany was aggressor and bad guy when invaded USSR in 1941. In a similar way, USSR in 1939 was an aggressor and bad guy in 1939 (together with Germany). What’s wrong with this logic?

#24

Lexa:

So they were equally aggressive in this.

Thank you very much! That is what I have been saying.

But despite it, we say that Germany was aggressor and bad guy when invaded USSR in 1941. In a similar way, USSR in 1939 was an aggressor and bad guy in 1939 (together with Germany). What’s wrong with this logic?

How many times do I have to state, that I am with you on this point?

German agression was of a different nature. It was mainly ethnicaly centered - something one can not change like a political view. Plus Hitler wanted to capture new land that geopoliticaly had nothing to do with Germany.

USSR was also agressive to its neighbours with that difference from Germany, that USSR wanted to return the areas it considered unjustfully lost.

Can we, please, stop being histerical now?

#25

Here is the ethnographical map of Poland in 1939 taken from “Das politische Antlitz der Erde” by Walther Pahl, Leipzig, April 1939, page 62 (very interesting book with lots of diagrams that suppose to show that Germany needs to expand its living room).

Sorry for the wrong map oriantation… I do not know how to put a bigger picture in here…

images4.gif

#26

Well, since the USSR didn’t exist until after 1900, it missed most of the ‘colonial wars’. Still I’m not sure how the conduct of the colonial powers relates to the the Soviet Union partitioning Poland in cooperation with Nazi Germany in 1939. Yes SOME of the territories in eastern Poland that were annexed by the Soviet Union had large Ukrainian or Belorussian populations. But then they didn’t especially want to be part of the Soviet Union any more than they did Poland. Both Poland and the Soviet Union were fighting over the same territory. What they ended up with had more to do with the outcome of battle in 1920, and the treaty with Nazi Germany, than it did with any concern over the ethnic make-up of the population.

Again, not sure what the earlier wars fought by Americans against Mexico and Spain have to do with the conduct of the Soviet Union in 1939. True, the US and Britain gave in to the demands of the Soviet Union to keep both eastern Poland and the Baltic States. They did in fact try to negotiate a modified border for Poland, and Stalin did in fact agree to adjust the post-war border in favour of Poland (i.e. relative to the Nazi-Soviet partition line). However, the fact is that they Western powers were simply giving into a demand that they were not in a position to do much about anyway. But again, post-war negotiations would not seem to relate directly to what happened in 1939.

What is not correct? My reference to communist regimes was regarding their philosophy in 1920, when they were driving on Warsaw - not to post-war Europe. I do not agree with your comments regarding post-war Europe, but again that is perhaps a topic for another thread. It doesn’t relate to either the 1920 Russo-Polish War or the 1939 Nazi-Soviet pact and joint partition of Poland.

#27

One more article I found on the net. Read the text next to the picture.

wwpole03.jpg
wwpole03.jpg582×846 195 KB

#28

One more map showing Ethnic map of Eastern Poland. It was developed by Sumner Welles who was Under Secretary of State in US (the #2 position) from 1937 to 1943.
Source page: Sumner Welles, Postwar Planning, and the Quest for New World Order: Chapter 7

osc07n.jpg
osc07n.jpg461×700 142 KB

osc07m.jpg
osc07m.jpg700×580 227 KB

#29

Hello!

I am looking for the information about the fate of the people (Mostly poles, but and also Germans) affected by the definition of the present Polish state borders.

The main issue I want to learn about is what happened to Poles that were left on the Estern territories (Kresy) after 1945. Were they allowed to relocate to the West of Bug and San rivers after the new Polands borders were agreed?

Was there any relocation of Poles during the German occupation?

I hope the our polish members can contribute as they have access to the polish sources of information.

Thanks!

#30

Any one? Any Pole here who knows how people were relocated?

#31

Don’t worry mate , I/m sure somebody of our polis friend know something about.

#32

I’ve found a good article, but need to translate it.
I’ll try by tomorrow.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#33

The deportation of Poles living in Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine started in late 1944 on the strength of the agreement signed by polish communist government and authorities of Lithuanian, Belorussian and Ukrainian soviet republics.
Generally it lasted till 1947.
Both sides agreed to create the lists of candidates for deportation.

Lithuania:
Registered: 383,135
Deported: 197,156

Ukraine
Registered: 854,809
Deported: 772,564

Belarus
Registered: 535,284
Deported: about 150,000

The whole process of deportation took place in extremely difficult circumstances of last month of war and first years of peace. Both sides suffered huge war damage, social life was in rebirth stage, administrational and economical systems were ineffectual. The transport, communication and food supply were subordinated to the war machine, so the deportation of that scale faced many difficulties, what caused a lot of suffering and death to the deported.

The deportations had two faces. From the one side soviet republics wanted to get rid of Poles living on their territories. That why Poles became a victims of harassment and violence.
From the other side the soviet authorities wanted to prevent from leaving rural population. It was the reason for putting pressure
on polish side to finish the deportations.
About 654,000 of Poles were left behind (cannot confirm this number right now).

The tragic situation was intensified by the atmosphere among the Poles.
From the one side they wanted to leave the areas occupied by the soviets, from the other side they didn’t want to leave their houses, property and homelands.

There may be some mistakes in numbers of deported. I will verify them later.
This post is based on a website: http://www.sciesielski.republika.pl

#34

This is the reply for Chevan’s post from http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3795&page=8

East Prussia on the strength of Potsdam Conference was divided between Poland and USSR.

#35

Kovalski,

Have you read the report about the victims of the Soviet repressions on the Karta project website? The one mentioned in the thread about the deportation in 1939-1941.

Can it be trusted in your opinion? Do you agree with the numbers (320.000 deported out of 570.387 in total) ?

#36

Unfortunately, I haven’t have time yet to read the report.
But “Karta” has a opinion of realiable institute, they conduct really precise research. So I have no reason to disagree with them. Especially when prof. Władysław Bartoszewski and prof. Andrzej Paczkowski are the members of institute’s council.

#37

I would assume for now that you accept the information from the Karta report.
Then looking at the numbers you mentioned above I got this adea. The Polish population of Kresy (eastern Poland) was app. 5.2 mil out of app. 10.5 mil before 1939.

If the data for deported it right (i.e. app. 320.000), and there were only 1.773.000 registered in Belorussia, Ukrain and Litvonia according to your previous post, does it mean we can say
5.200.000 - 320.000 - 1.773.000 = ~3.100.000 Poles
fell victim of the German occupation and the Ukrainian-Polish conflict?

#38

Egorka this is not that simple becuse if you want be on lists of candidates for resettlement you must prove polish nacionality. (you must have any documents what prove yours nationality) In cites this wasn’t problem but on village areas this was problem. Many peoples don’t have any documents and can’t will be on list. For example in register on Belarus was 535,284 people but the number of Poles was about 700.000

fell victim of the German occupation and the Ukrainian-Polish conflict?

I don’t have any info how many Poles was victims german ocupation on former “Kresy Wschodnie” but victims Ukrainian-Polish conflict is estimate about 200.000 Poles

#39

Hi,

Why did not they have documents? They had them before the war, right?

And even if we take 30% error margin on top of the number provided by Kovalski and substruct the victims of Polish-Ukrainian conflict, it would leave us with app. 2.500.000 people unaccounted. That is a very large numeber.

Any ideas?

#40

Well
About 300.000 was join to Berling’s Army and eskped by front summer 1944.
Some of Polish living on estern borders was eskaped after 17.IX.1939 to teritory ocupied by germans. Some was in polish forces on West