Yes, they could not have any document’s before war or If they have they could lost during escape by pacification doing by UPA or German.
Why could not htey have documents? Everyone gets a birth sertificate, at least.
This seem to me very unlikely that they has no papers before the war.
Loosing papers is much more likely in those troublesome times, I agree.
Some of Polish living on estern borders was eskaped after 17.IX.1939 to teritory ocupied by germans.
According to the agreement between Germany and USSR the Polish refugees were not allowed and were prevented from crossing the border line. Those who managed to cross the border and was spotted were relocated to the territories they originaly came from.
Thanks Egorka, tha’s extremally interesting maps.
So according to the Welles the so called “Eastern Polish territories” had much less the poles then the ukrainians, belorussian and russians 
Why? 
Cheers.
This post is manipuleted.
Why ?
The German’s wasn’t surprise. They agree give to USRR on sphere of influence Lithuania and Vilnius area for Warsaw and Lublin areas.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Ribbentrop-Molotov.svg
Good point
For me:
As far as I know, some Soviet or Russian historic speak that Polish Soviet war was started in april 1919 as “Kiev campaign of Pilsudski” but war was started in january 1919. Did they don’t know anything about fight betwenn january and april? Or they want show Polish as agressor?
Sorry Polar but not just Soviet and Russian but also Ukrain and Belorussian historians.
Let’s look to the chronology
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Советско-польская_война_1919—1921_годов
On 17 December 1918 - the Red Army took Dvinsk (Daugavpils) and continued motion into the depths of the Lithuanian and Belorussian territories.
On 1 January 1919 - after withdrawal from Vil’ny of German army the local formations of Polish self-defence took control over the city, but on 5 January 1919 Vilnius were with the battle undertaken by the parts OF RKKA . Memel edge was isolated from Germany and occupied by Frenchmen. Lithuanians sent for the achievement of Klaipeda of 1500 soldiers. Lithuanian army resisted 200 Frenchmen, combat for the city dispatch five days, and in the course of assault perished 12 Lithuanians, two Frenchmen even one German policeman. Soviet Russia, which demonstratively advanced friendly forces to the boundary.
During March Poles attacked in Soviet Russia and crossed Neman river.
On 4 April 1919 - Poles occupy Kovel.
On 9 February 1919 - Poles occupy Brest.
07.1919 to Poland arrived the 70- thousandth Polish army, created in France and formed to a considerable degree of the Americans of Polish origin.
19 - on 21 April 1919 - Polish troops again occupy Vilnius.
On 8 August 1919 - Polish troops occupy Minsk.
On 29 August 1919 - Polish troops seize Bobruysk. The front during December of 1920 - England, France, USA supply to Poland 1494 instruments, 2800 machine guns, about 700 aircraft, 10 million projectiles.
25 April 1920 - after concluding union with Semen Petlura ( ukrainian nationalists leader ), Polish army together with the his armed forces attacked in Russia, being going to include the Ukraine and Lithuania in its composition, at the broad front from the Pripet to the Dniester.
On 7 May 1920 - Polish and Petlura’s troops occupy Kiev. the offensive of Polish troops is accompanied by Jewish pogroms and mass shootings: in Rovno the occupiers shot more than 3 thousand innocent civilians, into the place Tetiyevo is killed about 4 thousand Jews, are completely burnt village Ivanovo residents, Kycha, Sobachi, Yablunovka, New Rowing, Mel’nichi, Kirillovka, etc., their inhabitants were shot to death
Oh the jews were victims again. What for ?
Certainly the both sides made atrosities above civil population.
But the ethnic cleaning were the worst.
Look to the polish (1919) and nazi ( 1941) propogandic posters.
The times are different the bolshevics faces are the simular.
Well if serious i think the Polish -Soviet war of 1919-1920 was the tupical agressian war for the territories of independent states Belorussia and Ukraine.
Both polish and soviet sides had ONLY imperial interests.
The majiority of Ukrain population was against polish occupation in 1919. This reason IMO was the first why the poles was forced to retreat. ( equally like and the why the Red army was crashed near the Warsaw year later - the majiority of native (polish) population considered them as invaders).
The Ukrainian hate to the poles was dramatically showed later when during the German occupation of Ukraine the UPA nationalist accomplished the atrocities agains the civil polish population in the territories of western Ukraine.
Cheers.
It wasn’t justified under any circumstance other than local plebiscite…
Polar,
Do you want to know why I edited the post after I wrote it? If this is your question ,then I can tell you that I correct some times my misspellings when I notice them.
The German’s wasn’t surprise. They agree give to USRR on sphere of influence Lithuania and Vilnius area for Warsaw and Lublin areas.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Ribbentrop-Molotov.svg
Regarding surprise, I can not say if it was great or just moderate. Lets say that it was unexpected for Germany, that Stalin would give up those territories including Warsaw.
Here are some quotes:
from the book “The secrets of Stalin’s diplomacy, 1939-1941” by Mihail Simiriaga, 1992. In russian here: http://militera.lib.ru/research/semiryaga1/index.html
First trough Schulenburg and later during the talks on 28th of September Stalin showed his negative attitude to “Polish rump state”. He declared that dismemberment of the areas with predominantly Polish population will inevitably evoke its national awareness (as it is seen from the history). This can lead to tensions between Germany and USSR. Therefore Stalin was ready to give up the populated by Poles Lublin and right bank Warsaw province “in exchange” for Lithuania.
The following quotes are the telegrams exchanged by SCHULENBURG, the German ambassador in USSR, with Ribbentrop in Berlin.
From this address: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/nazsov.htm#III
[INDENT]
Telegram
STRICTLY SECRET
Moscow, September 20, 1939-2:23 a. m.
Received September 20, 1939-4:55 a. m.
No. 395 of September 19
Molotov stated to me today that the Soviet Government now considered the time ripe for it, jointly with the German Government, to establish definitively the structure of the Polish area. In this regard, Molotov hinted that the original inclination entertained by the Soviet Government and Stalin personally to permit the existence of a residual Poland had given way to the inclination to partition Poland along the Pissa-Narew-Vistula-San Line. The Soviet Government wishes to commence negotiations on this matter at once, and to conduct them in Moscow, since such negotiations must be conducted on the Soviet side by persons in the highest positions of authority, who cannot leave the Soviet Union. Request telegraphic instructions.
SCHULENBURG (the German ambassador in USSR)
Telegram
STRICTLY SECRET
BERLIN September 23, 1939-3:40 a. m.
Received Moscow September 23, 1939-11:05 a. m.
No. 417 of September 22
Reference your telegram No. 295 [395?].
For the Ambassador personally.
We, too, consider the time now ripe to establish by treaty jointly with the Soviet Government the definitive structure of the Polish area. The Russian idea of a border line along the well-known Four-Rivers Line coincides in general with the view of the Reich Government. It was my original intention to invite Herr Molotov to Germany in order to formulate this treaty. In view of your report that the leading personages there cannot leave the Soviet Union, we agree to negotiations in Moscow. Contrary to my original purpose of entrusting you with these negotiations, I have decided to fly to Moscow myself. This particularly because in view of the full powers granted me by the Führer, thus making it possible to dispense with counter-inquiries, etc. negotiations can be brought to a speedier conclusion. In view of the general situation, my sojourn in Moscow will have to be limited to one or two days at the most. Please call on Herren Stalin and Molotov and wire me earliest proposed date.
Telegram
VERY URGENT
Moscow, September 25, 1939-10:58 p. m.
Received September 26, 1939-12:30 a. m.
STRICTLY SECRET
No. 442 of September 25
Stalin and Molotov asked me to come to the Kremlin at 8 p. m. today. Stalin stated the following: In the final settlement of the Polish question anything that in the future might create friction between Germany and the Soviet Union must be avoided. From this point of view, he considered it wrong to leave an independent Polish rump state. He proposed the following: From the territory to the east of the demarcation line, all the Province of Lublin and that portion of the Province of Warsaw which extends to the Bug should be added to our share. In return, we should waive our claim to Lithuania.
Stalin designated this suggestion as a subject for the forthcoming negotiations with the Reich Foreign Minister and added that, if we consented, the Soviet Union would immediately take up the solution of the problem of the Baltic countries in accordance with the Protocol of August 23, and expected in this matter the unstinting support of the German Government. Stalin expressly indicated Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, but did not mention Finland.
I replied to Stalin that I would report to my Government.
SCHULENBURG
[/INDENT]
I marked with bold how the question of moving borders appeared.
So my point with that post was that the question of nationalities was part of the equation in 1939.
Regarding the the question whose agression it was in 1919… well do you know how far Kiev was from the Polish border in 1919? I can help you: app. 500 km.
Polar, as you have seen I provided quite few documents here about the population of there territories in the 1930th. Can you find any data about how many Poles were living there before 1917?
Can you maybe assist me in finding how many foresters (osadniki) were settled in the eastern territories in the 1920th and 1930th?
Were there any other Polish settlements programs for Polonisation of the Kresy? If yes, how big were they?
I hope you can dig some number out.
What happened to Germany seems tragic especially the losses of the eastern territories. Even more unfortunate is that they brought it on themselves for no reason. However, in the scheme of things territorial borders are of little significance. I think the eradication of different species by humans during that time were far worse than any changing of boundaries.
That’s right Nick.
Neither Polish nor Bolshevic agression wasn’t justified by any reason.But unfortinatelly this is pure idealism and demagogy. And you know it better than me coz you live in the “world-police state”
Cheers.
Excellent source mate, thanks.
So we might to conclude the “division of Poland” in 1939 was executed with precision ethnic rules ( as exactly as it was possible). The polish population in the western Ukraine and Belorussia was still minority despite of active polonisation since 1921-1939 of that’s areas.
In fact the western ukrainians nationalists had the pertisan war against poles till the 1939 and during the german occupation( simulary as they fought against soviets troops after 1945).
So to call those lands as Polish is a big mistake IMO. Not becouse i wish to insult our polish friends, but the desires of Ukrains we need to count up too
The simple fact that 1939 eastern polish border is still actual and all sides consider it as legitime and not controversial that is really is important today.
Cheers.
Justified:
[INDENT][LIST][li]Geopolitically the area belonged to Russian empire and Russian (in it’s original term that includes nowadays Ukrainians, Belo-Russians and Russians)
[/li]> .
Not all.
When Lviv area ( in Polish this lands was name Galicja Wschodnia) was part of Russian empire before 17. IX.1939 ?
Answer - Never
Before ww1 this land was part of Austro-Hungary empire. Befor 1772 ( The First Partition of Poland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland ) this was land belonged to Polish Kingdom as others subject lands what was annextion by Soviet Union in 1939
[li]USSR was geopolitically focused on collecting the land it lost with the collapse of the Russian Empire.[/li]
Well, This is not any argument. Poland was geopolitically focused on collecting the land it lost after Partitions of Poland in XVIII century. Egorka You questioned Polish right to this land give as justified this same type of argument.
When Russain have historical argument is good.
When Poland have historical argument is bed.
Well Polar just dont misunderstand us.
Thanks for the infor about former Austo-Hungarian lands.But i think we would not touch the wars of 100-200 year old. This is noncense IMO, becouse in this way the practicaly all European borders could be criticized;). For inctance from this point the whole British Impire was unlegitime.
I have to agree with you the claims of Bolshevics are not better then the claims of Poland
But … here we have the one little difference.
In the 1919 the Poland left those territories 150 years ago and as it was showed in sources above the polish population was absolute minority.The Russian Impare crashed just two years ago -therefore the majiority of peoples choused to joine to the new Soviet Repablic. Indeed the majiority of Ukrainas and White Russian prefered to join to the Red Army ( instead of Polish Army) - therefore it was inevitable resault - the poles losed occuped former Russian Impere territories.
Cheers.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/С%...B4ов
On 17 December 1918 - the Red Army took Dvinsk (Daugavpils) and continued motion into the depths of the Lithuanian and Belorussian territories.
On 1 January 1919 - after withdrawal from Vil’ny of German army the local formations of Polish self-defence took control over the city, but on 5 January 1919 Vilnius were with the battle undertaken by the parts OF RKKA . Memel edge was isolated from Germany and occupied by Frenchmen. Lithuanians sent for the achievement of Klaipeda of 1500 soldiers. Lithuanian army resisted 200 Frenchmen, combat for the city dispatch five days, and in the course of assault perished 12 Lithuanians, two Frenchmen even one German policeman. Soviet Russia, which demonstratively advanced friendly forces to the boundary.
During March Poles attacked in Soviet Russia and crossed Neman river.
On 4 April 1919 - Poles occupy Kovel.
On 9 February 1919 - Poles occupy Brest.
07.1919 to Poland arrived the 70- thousandth Polish army, created in France and formed to a considerable degree of the Americans of Polish origin.
19 - on 21 April 1919 - Polish troops again occupy Vilnius.
On 8 August 1919 - Polish troops occupy Minsk.
On 29 August 1919 - Polish troops seize Bobruysk. The front during December of 1920 - England, France, USA supply to Poland 1494 instruments, 2800 machine guns, about 700 aircraft, 10 million projectiles.
25 April 1920 - after concluding union with Semen Petlura ( ukrainian nationalists leader ), Polish army together with the his armed forces attacked in Russia, being going to include the Ukraine and Lithuania in its composition, at the broad front from the Pripet to the Dniester.
On 7 May 1920 - Polish and Petlura’s troops occupy Kiev. the offensive of Polish troops is accompanied by Jewish pogroms and mass shootings: in Rovno the occupiers shot more than 3 thousand innocent civilians, into the place Tetiyevo is killed about 4 thousand Jews, are completely burnt village Ivanovo residents, Kycha, Sobachi, Yablunovka, New Rowing, Mel’nichi, Kirillovka, etc., their inhabitants were shot to death
Interesting calender but have few “mistake” and some date was ignore in this calender. Reson this “mistake” or ingnore few date is for me obvious. Author this calender want show Polish as agressor.
Why in this calender don’t have date 18 november 1918 or 12 january 1919 ?
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War_in_1919
On November 16 Bolsheviks formed the Western Army. On November 18, 1918, Vladimir Lenin issued orders to the Red Army to begin an operation, codenamed in some sources as Target Vistula. The basic aim of the operation was to drive through eastern and central Europe, institute Soviet governments in the newly independent countries of that region and support communist revolutions in Germany and Austria-Hungary.…On January 12 Soviet High Command declared the goal of Target Vistula operation: deep scouting towards Neman River. On February 12 that goal was updated to Western Bug river.
Polish troops occupy all cities from this calender even this where Poles were majority ( interesting point of view )
Polish troops in Vilno are name as “the local formations of Polish self-defence” and is this true but in this time most Polish troops have local and self-defence character. Reson why did have local and self-defence character was that Poland was newbor after 126 years 2 months ago.
And for me the best:
December of 1920 - England, France, USA supply to Poland 1494 instruments, 2800 machine guns, about 700 aircraft, 10 million projectiles.
Yes, Poland buy weapons from England, France and USA.
During 1918-1920 Poland was bought:
From France 291
From UK 139 planes
From Italy 132 planes
From Germany 132
From Austria 38
This was 732 planes delivered by 2 years not one month.
About half planes what was delivered was from demobil and was in fatal condition. The part of planes was delivered after Polish Soviet war
Well Polar. Yes you right the my source is not full.
Idon’t think the goal of author was to show the Poles as agressors.
This is right way to find the mistakes and innacuracies.
OK let’s look to the your source.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War_in_1919
On November 16 Bolsheviks formed the Western Army. On November 18, 1918, Vladimir Lenin issued orders to the Red Army to begin an operation, codenamed in some sources as Target Vistula. The basic aim of the operation was to drive through eastern and central Europe, institute Soviet governments in the newly independent countries of that region and support communist revolutions in Germany and Austria-Hungary.…On January 12 Soviet High Command declared the goal of Target Vistula operation: deep scouting towards Neman River. On February 12 that goal was updated to Western Bug river.
Firstly in the 1918 there were no aims or orders to “target Vestula” Becouse … in the 1918 the bolshevic yet did not exactly know could they to hold the power inside the Russia.
The idea to “Expropriate the Revolution” appeared in the 1919 after the sucsessfull offencive the Tuhachevsky in the Ukraine.
To plan the offencive if you don’t take the power inside the state- this is pure siucide. Theoretically the bolshevics were sure the World Proletarian Revolution was “inevitable” but they were not so stupid to take it LITERALY in the 1918.
Secondary this was idea not Lenin but Leon Trotsky-Bernstain who factically commanded of Red Army in this time.
So as you could to see this “source” is also coulde be presented as attemp to show the “agression side” was ONLY the Red Army.
Cheers.
You don’t understand my post Chevan. My criticism was against this word :
“USSR was geopolitically focused on collecting the land it lost with the collapse of the Russian Empire” as justified annexation former polish east terytory in 1939.
This is historical argument annextion. For me is not any argument, because Soviet Union acepted peace treaty with Poland in 1921.
The Russian Impare crashed just two years ago -therefore the majiority of peoples choused to joine to the new Soviet Repablic…
Sorry but I don’t think that was two years between 1917 - 1939.
Sorry Chevan I’m not criticized borders but argument what Egorka wrot as justifice annextion polish former east lands.
All me post was aginst two “hictorical” arguments what Egorka use as justified annexation former polish east terytory in 1939.
Sorry Chevan for yours up post is for me obvius that you think this schema:
When Russain have historical argument is good.
When Poland have historical argument is bed.
For me
Historical argument are not any arguments to prove rights to lands any nation.
Ethnic - yes.
Chevan,
The main goal of the “operation Vistula” was to see how much territory can be captured in the chaotic after withdraw German’s, before Red Army meet any serious opposition.
Polish Army have this same main goal, but they marsh on east. 
Look this source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_Vistula
and tell me did this point of view is accepted for you
I think that Russian archive are better to find data.
Did you see this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osadnik ?
I heard about action doing by private person like Zamoyski familly but how big were they I don’t know.
to Polar:
Polar, my dear friend! I just want to ask you: Have you read this thread from the begining? If not, you should! So that you may better understand my position.
And now answer for you questions:
Not all.
When Lviv area ( in Polish this lands was name Galicja Wschodnia) was part of Russian empire before 17. IX.1939 ?
Answer - Never
Before ww1 this land was part of Austro-Hungary empire. Befor 1772 ( The First Partition of Poland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland ) this was land belonged to Polish Kingdom as others subject lands what was annextion by Soviet Union in 1939
Polar they did not have to be 100% correct. There was a negotiation with Germans about the border and as you know it was moved during the talks.
The area you reffered to is one most Polish of them all. I agree. Though it was before 1100 AD in the domain of Lord of Kiev. I know it is long time ago and alone means nothing, but to say it does not mater at all is wrong too. Here is the map: http://www.staypoland.com/history-map.htm
When you say “this was land belonged to Polish Kingdom as others subject lands what was annextion by Soviet Union in 1939” I hope you do not want to extend your statement on Kiev and Moscow. Right? Because in the course of the history they were occupied by Poles. Or should we hand it back to Poland?
Sorry Chevan I’m not criticized borders but argument what Egorka wrot as justifice annextion polish former east lands.
I guess you did not read all the post from the beginning of the thread, else you would not write this.
I made a mistake by using english word “justify”, I should have used “explain” instead.
All me post was aginst two “hictorical” arguments what Egorka use as justified annexation former polish east terytory in 1939.
Sorry Chevan for yours up post is for me obvius that you think this schema:
When Russain have historical argument is good.
When Poland have historical argument is bed.
Well you did not chalenge the validity of these 2 arguments. I do undertand that you might not like them or disagree with them. But you did not show that they make no sence at all.
They do make sence from a russian point of view. Just like other ones make sence from a Polish point of view. EITHER way it is not objective!
For me
Historical argument are not any arguments to prove rights to lands any nation.
Ethnic - yes.
Does it mean you actually share the view that the eastern Poland was rightfuly joint to USSR becasue Poles were manority even after extensive polonisation campains?
Yes nowdays all peoples in Poland when born have a birth sertificate with confirm nationality, but I don’t know did this document was in “popular” use about 100 years ago ? Did you know this? If they have this document it could be few types(Tzar Russia, Austro-Hungary or Polish). Question is did all type documents confirmed nationlity- I don’t know it. And you?
I look to my familliar archive documents and last birth sertificate was from 1952 and belong to my father. But I have baptism sertificate who belong to my grand-grand father and they not confirmed nationlity. Mayby this type documents was in “popular” use about 100 years ago.
Not at all
I know all familly whta wasn’t relocated.