How justfiled the Soviet annexation of former Polish territories in 1939 was?

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#61

You do not need to go that far as to the russian archives. Googling helps too.
Here is the 2 maps (they are more 2 versions of the same map) developed by the Czech archeologist, anthropologist and ethnographer professor Lubor Niederle in the beginning of the XXth century. They appeared in the book “Slavic Antiquities” (Slovanské starožitnosti).

#1: http://www.belarusguide.com/as/map_text/etn19-20.html
#2: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Ethnographic_map_of_Slavs%2C_Lubor_Niederle.JPG

There is also a book “Geograficzno-Statystyczny Atlas Polski” by Dr. Eugenjusz Romer, published in Lwow in 1921. Very good book! Here is the link to the book scans: http://www.maproom.org/00/31/index.php
Look particulary at this one: http://www.maproom.org/00/31/present.php?m=0011

Polar, thanks for the link to info about Osadnik. I did look in the Wiki for it. Stupid me! :slight_smile:

#62

Well sorry i mean the period 1919-1920 and not the western Ukranian territories but the entire Ukrain.

This is historical argument annextion. For me is not any argument, because Soviet Union acepted peace treaty with Poland in 1921.

Dear Polar my point is not the justify the “Polish eastern” territories. It seem we have to conclude those lands were not polish and not the Russian. This was the lands of Ukrain and Belorussia ( which at that moment was part of USSR).
I’m not justiry the 1939-annexions, i just know those territories were captured by the Poland right after the collapse of Russian Impire. The ethnic population of those lands were far from the polish.

Sorry but I don’t think that was two years between 1917 - 1939.

I mean 1919 :wink:

Sorry Chevan I’m not criticized borders but argument what Egorka wrot as justifice annextion polish former east lands.

All me post was aginst two “hictorical” arguments what Egorka use as justified annexation former polish east terytory in 1939.

Sorry Chevan for yours up post is for me obvius that you think this schema:
When Russain have historical argument is good.
When Poland have historical argument is bed.

Oh again. I/m tied to repeat for you i/m not think that the arguments was bed or good.
Tis is not importaint. The more importaint that today the BORDERS which was established in 1939 ARE not controversal for every side. So i don’t see the reason to call it as “polish eastern” territories becouse poles HAD no more right for it then the Bolshevicks in 1939.

For me
Historical argument are not any arguments to prove rights to lands any nation.
Ethnic - yes.

That’s right i/m totaly agree, at the end;)

#63

My question was: When Lviv area ( in Polish this lands was name Galicja Wschodnia) was part of Russian empire before 17. IX.1939 ?
and my answer was correct. Off course if you look on history you find that Russia was occuped short time Lviv and this areas before 17. IX.1939 , but I can tell you that was this same as Polish occupied Moscow in XVII century :slight_smile:

When you say “this was land belonged to Polish Kingdom as others subject lands what was annextion by Soviet Union in 1939” I hope you do not want to extend your statement on Kiev and Moscow. Right? Because in the course of the history they were occupied by Poles. Or should we hand it back to Poland?

No off cours no. I have in my mind only terretories annexed by USRR in 1939.

Sorry Chevan I’m not criticized borders but argument what Egorka wrot as justifice annextion polish former east lands.

I guess you did not read all the post from the beginning of the thread, else you would not write this.

I made a mistake by using english word “justify”, I should have used “explain” instead.

Sorry I missed this post, but this not changed my opinion about “historical arguments” but if you think that did you agree with this same type arguments explain why Poland want take controll of the land on East in 1919. Poland was newborn after 123 and want to have all lands what belonged to her before partitios of Poland in XVIII c.

Well you did not chalenge the validity of these 2 arguments. I do undertand that you might not like them or disagree with them. But you did not show that they make no sence at all.

Relly
Look this (bold by me)

When you say “this was land belonged to Polish Kingdom as others subject lands what was annextion by Soviet Union in 1939” I hope you do not want to extend your statement on Kiev and Moscow. Right? Because in the course of the history they were occupied by Poles. Or should we hand it back to Poland? .

If you give sence “historical arguments” you can find person who answer for you question YES.

For me
Historical argument are not any arguments to prove rights to lands any nation.
Ethnic - yes.

[Quote]Does it mean you actually share the view that the eastern Poland was rightfuly joint to USSR becasue Poles were manority even after extensive polonisation campains?

No, because USRR acepted Treaty of Riga in 1921, and acepted this borders.
Don’t forget that this annexation was prepered with Germany and was braek
Polish USRR non-agression pact.

#64

Birth sertificate was practicaly a must, as I know. In my family archive I have birth sertificate of several of my grand-grand parants. People could lack passport but not birth sertificate. Unless it was lost in a fire or something.
And I am sure there is nationality (for safety sake I will check tonight). And common, if your farthers surname is Pilsudsky you are not a White Russian! :smiley:
And also in the 1930th every Polish baby must had goten a birth sertificate. No?

Not at all :slight_smile:
I know all familly whta wasn’t relocated.

I agree, my statement sounds a bit unflexible. And I rushed this one a bit.
That is right some people could move across, but not all who wanted. For example when Red Army had to leave after the final borderr was agreed all who wished could move to USSR (there were up to 100.000 of those). So I guess some movement was possible.
But I also know some people were extradicted to Germany and viseversa to USSR though they wanted to otherwise. I will try to check it.

#65

[QUOTE]Does it mean you actually share the view that the eastern Poland was rightfuly joint to USSR becasue Poles were manority even after extensive polonisation campains?

No, because USRR acepted Treaty of Riga in 1921, and acepted this borders.
Don’t forget that this annexation was prepered with Germany and was braek
Polish USRR non-agression pact.[/QUOTE]

But you said “Ethnic - yes”. So in your mind these lands, except Lviv, are not ethnicaly Polish and therefore should not belong to Poland. Do I understand it correctly? :wink:

P.S: Have you looked at these to books I mentioned in post #46 about Polish ethinical domain? The authors are not russians, if it makes any difference. :wink:

#66

Yes nowdays all peoples in Poland when born have a birth sertificate with confirm nationality,

My mistake.
nowdays all peoples in Poland when born have a birth sertificate with confirm they what coutry are citizen not nationality.

#67

[QUOTE]
Not at all :slight_smile:
I know all familly whta wasn’t relocated.

I agree, my statement sounds a bit unflexible. And I rushed this one a bit.
That is right some people could move across, but not all who wanted. For example when Red Army had to leave after the final borderr was agreed all who wished could move to USSR (there were up to 100.000 of those). So I guess some movement was possible.
But I also know some people were extradicted to Germany and viseversa to USSR though they wanted to otherwise. I will try to check it.[/QUOTE]

I found this article “Between the hammer and the anvil: on the fate of jews during the union betwen Hitler and Stalin” by Evgeny Berkovich, 2002, in Russian:
http://berkovich-zametki.com/Nomer3/Poland1.htm

Here are some quotes from there:
[INDENT]

Trying to avoid poverty, some jews fled to the West, to the German controlled part of poland. Knowing now how the things developed further, we can call they descission suicidal. But these were few compared to the number of people that fled to the East. About 600.000 poeple, including 350.000 Jews run to the Soviet zone of Eastern Poland (source #5: Siekierski, M. The Jews in Soviet-Occupied Eastern Poland at the End of 1939. Numbers und Distributions. In Davies, Norman/Polonsky, Antony: Jews in Eastern Poland and USSR. London 1991.). All of them came under suspision of NKVD as spies and saboteurs. Many were send right away to Siberian GULAG.

Until the end 1939, when the border was finaly closed, the Soviet administration sent many people, mainly Jews, back to Germany. According to the agrement with Germany on the exchange of the population (Germans should had go west, Ukrainians - east) the Soviet side accepted only “pure Ukraininas”, and by no means Jews (Source #7: С. Шварц. Евреи в Советском Союзе с начала Второй мировой войны (1939 –1945). Нью-Йорк 1966. i.e. Schwartz, Jews in USSR from the beggining of Second World War (1939 - 1945), New-York, 1966.).

[/INDENT]

I put bold on what might be most relevant for us here. I think the article is not 100% fault proof, but the info about the posibility of the migration accross the new border is more or less ok.

So, you see, the migration was actually possible until end 1939, but not completely free.

#68

Yes I said “Ethnic - yes” but you wrote

This wasn’t rightfuly joint to USSR. USRR invade Poland and braek
Polish USRR non-agression pact.

I looked maps from post#46 particulary at this one: http://www.files.maproom.org/00/31/present.php?m=0011 and what I see
USRR not only take territory where Polish was minoryty.
I know that this map show in red color territory where Poles are over 50% but did you think that on others terriory show white color Poles not liveing?

(…) Poles were manority even after extensive polonisation campains?

Egorka you wrote about extensive polonisation campains and you ask me how many foresters (osadniki) were settled in the eastern territories in the 1920th and 1930th? You don’t know how many foresters (osadniki) were settled but you know that this action was extensive ?

#69

Interesting Map what show where on Opole Voivodeship was settlet peoples from village terrain former polish east borders
http://www.brozbar12.webpark.pl/grzymalow/mapa-przesiedlen-1.jpg

Red - polish peoples from Tarnopol Voivodeship,
yellow - polish peoples from Lwów Voivodeship,
blue - polish peoples from Wolhynian Voivodeship,
pink - polish peoples from Stanisławów Voivodeship,

Symbols green and black show settlers from others part Poland what wasn’t joint to USRR

#70

Technically USSR didn’t invide the Poland in 1939.
The Red Army entered to the western Ukraine in 17 sep when the polish gov run out from Poland. The Poland was in full collapse. ( and this is sadly)
The Stalin’s will was that “process” should look like the joining the territories which were lost by the Poland in resault of German agression.

Cheers.

#71

So tell me something Chevan,

If state “A” sends its army on the territory which belongs to a state “B”, and when state “A” orders its units to attack the units of state “B” - so, is it an act of agression (invasion) or not?

There is just one answer. And there is no need to use such words as “technically”…
Just give me a straight answer: “Yes, it is an invasion” or “No, it is not an invasion”.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#72

Chevan when the polish gov run out from Poland? After or Before enter Red Army to Poland ?

What do you mean wrote this?

#73

That is right. USSR took also some territories where Poles had mijority.
There are actually 2 maps (I can not quite get the difference beteween them. What do you think?)
#1: http://www.maproom.org/00/31/present.php?m=0010
#2: http://www.maproom.org/00/31/present.php?m=0011
According to them (especially the #1) by far the most of the territories taken by USSR did not have Polish majority. It still does not change that it was an agression, but IMO the situation light up quite differently when one looks at the maps like that. At least for me it was rather surprising and interesting to see.

Egorka you wrote about extensive polonisation campains and you ask me how many foresters (osadniki) were settled in the eastern territories in the 1920th and 1930th? You don’t know how many foresters (osadniki) were settled but you know that this action was extensive ?

I have to admit I can not put the numbers on the term “extensive” right now. I can remember reading word “extensive” in one of the articles I read.

OK. I take the word “extensive” back untill I find some info (as objective as possible) on this matter.

There is a book in russian “Soviet-Polish wars. Millitary and political opposition. 1918 - 1939” by Mihail Meltyhov, 2001. Available in russian on http://militera.lib.ru I know he covers this suject, but I need some time to read again the right chapters.

So far I have a short quote (just read it yesterday) from “Towns and people of modern Poland” by McBride, Robert Medill, New York, 1938. This is a book writen in very favorable to Poland and Poles language. (You can buy it here :wink: : http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=6758885&matches=9&qsort=r)
[INDENT]

Chapter V
Wilno, seat of pagan Lithuania

on page 111:
We had long looked forward to seeing this, the most Russian, section of Poland and to the city in which the Russians had left their most indelible mark, if indeed any city or district in the Republic still bears the stamp of their former masters. Oppressed almost bayond endurance and hating the Russians as few people in history have done, the Poles have effaced practicaly every trace of their neighbors.

[/INDENT]

#74

Hi mate
I feel ill and vexation in your post.
I could understand.OK. Form the deep childhood you heared the words the “USSR invided the Poland in 1939”. This is too obvious for you and you may be think it is sensless to discuss even;)
But now please be cable to understand my point.
For a long time from the school we heared about “slav brotherhood”.
We primitively believed in this propoganda.The gov keep the silence about manies things.
They told the Poland was liberated from the bourgeois occupation in 1945.
They tryed to represent the polish society as mostly friendly for the USSR.

Before the downfall of USSR in the 1989 the Poland was absolutly politically free and first in former soviet block had began the hard way of economic reforms ( shock therapy).
So everybody was sure the Poland received the full independence already then.
We naivly thought the russian-polish hostinity lost in the past. And it was absolutly normally to let the poles to do everithing they want.
But the illussion had finally dissapeared in the end of 1990 when the poland choosed the cource to the NATO .
We suddenly heared the “Russia still treats the Poland” and the only way to save the independense is joing to NATO.
Later when the polish right come to the powerb they raised the old polish pipe about ewil russian.
So when we suddenly has know in the Warsaw were renamed one of the street by name of Chechen terrorist and they were a "good guest in the Poland. The constant anti-russian rhetoric of the polish authorities was a amazing for us.
We suddenly have know instead the independent friendly Poland we have got the old polish political enemy. Amd this was at that moment when the our state has a crisis economical and political i.e. during the most unhealthy period.
So as you could see today the authorities got the opposite tactick.
Sometimes it look funny for instance the day of 4 november ( the day when in the 17 century the polish invaiders were banished from the Kremlin) was called as the “Day of national and civil unity”. This is pure political and not most wisest desigion we all understant it.
But it was the EQUIVALENT desicion of stupid polish inner politic. So we just have seen the our gov try to “care about us” ( in comparition of Yeltsin times it was the new issure).
So regardering your question with A and B states.
That’s right the this was TUPICAL INVASION by the state A to the state B.
Only one exception those lands weren’t “belong the state B” (it belongs indeed the state C and D which both were not asked ) on definition becouse the state B early captured it from the state A. ( using the full political haos) :wink:
So i/m really agree with you it was tupical invasion but please don’t call this lands as polish.

I hope you understand .
Cheers.

#75

Right at that moment. Tak? :wink:

What do you mean wrote this?

I/m wote it very sadly the polish 1 million army together with its France ( more the 1 million) and British ( about 100 000) allies was not capable nothing did against the 1,5 germans army ( although the Germans were better equipment).

Cheers.

#76

This one is like pooring honey all over my ears… :mrgreen:

New York Times, 01-June-1933

#77

Oh My GOD !!!
Look at this very interesting document
I can’t believe the Poland planned to invide the Ukraine. :wink:
what could to say our polish friends?

#78

Regarding the aledged Nazi-Polish accord, please, read this post of mine I made previously in the thread " Polish Army on the Eastern Front": http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=93399&postcount=74

#79

Answer you have in Egorka post.
Befor 1.IX.1939 German always proposal Poland compensation for ouer land on Pomerania and Upper Silesia on Soviet Ukraina and others place in USRR. As you see these proposal was newer accepted.

#80

I suppose that the first map show situation about 1910 (this is last date what is on this map) and show situation before ww1 ( as you see on map are many localisation of Poles what don’t have on second). The second map based on documents from 1914-1920 and show migration what was doing during ww1 and 2 years after ww1

The bigest numbers of polish foresters I found in Wiki ( Btw I found only English and Russian(could you translate this article from Russaian) article about foresters) and this was 150.000 peoples. The biggest numbers what I found in polish source was 9000 allotments what was inhabit by 50-60.000 peoples ( the numbers was only give to groups what was settlet by polish gov.)

Chapter V
Wilno, seat of pagan Lithuania

on page 111:
We had long looked forward to seeing this, the most Russian, section of Poland and to the city in which the Russians had left their most indelible mark, if indeed any city or district in the Republic still bears the stamp of their former masters. Oppressed almost bayond endurance and hating the Russians as few people in history have done, the Poles have effaced practicaly every trace of their neighbors.

The authors have propably right but remeber that Poland was newborn after 123 years and Russia was doing russification politcs when ruled this terrain. This same feelings for German have Poples what lived on territory former German Empire.