If Market-Garden Never Happened

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#21

Could have included those, but I thought the list I gave was enough and covered the spectrum I wanted to.

WRT U-571, I am totally not over it, mainly because I never got excited about it. The reason why a film hasn’t been made about in Britain is probably because it WOULD flop.

The truth is not nearly as exciting as a bit of make beleive. Likewise, the film would have flopped in America had it been more in line with historical events. After all the Yanks aren’t going to watch a film about Brits taking Enigma all cool and calm, when in the next screan there is something about Aliens or something more exciting involving copious quantities of bullets.

Not a dig, just fact. Brits wouldn’t watch it either, but plum for the Aliens and bullets.

I doubt Hollywood/Bollywood/Britain or any other film making country will be able to turn out entertainment films for the masses that are accurate.

If it helps Dambusters was also a bit wrong, as have been all manner of “great” films about British successes and defeats, some have (ie ZULU) been penned and put on screan by Brits.

#22

Hollywood (and others) even manage to completely disregard “facts” in fictional books.

The following films/series bear no relation to the book that they were based on.

Starship Troopers - book of same name.
Blade Runner - Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheap.
Bourne Trilogy (I know only two films have been made) - books of same name.
Pretty much all of the Bonds - Books of same name.
Tom Clancy “Clear and Present Danger” - Book of same name.
We were soldiers - we were soldiers once, and young.
Jar head - book of same name
Black Hawk down - book of same name

Starship troopers in particular was quite a radical departure from the book, as was Clear and Present Danger.

Hunt for Red October wasn’t that parrelel either.

Very few films have been made just like the real events or the books.

(in the case of star wars the books don’t match the films!!!)

By far one of the most historical accurate (as they can get) series Rome, is still inaccurate in some instances. The soldiers have been built up from the only soldiers names mentioned in Julius Ceasers memoirs on his campaign in Germany/France (as is now). But many of the characters are slightly changed.

His Cousin for one, was not as devious as made out and Cato was a lot more martial than made out in the series. Also Cato didn’t kill himself with a single knife thrust to the abdomen, he tried this as depicted but failed, he later (whilst lying in his sick bed) pulled his stitches out of the original wound and pulled his own intestines out. Nice.

Different media requires different stimulation and slight differences in order to bring the story to life I suppose.

#23

As far as the Bond books were concerned, I was surprised how faithful From Russia with Love was to the book of the same name. The only major difference is that in the movie, the antagonist group was SPECTRE, but in the book it was the real-life organization SMERSH.

However, You Only Live Twice was about as different as possible. Bond did not fake his death in the book. In the book, Blofeld created a place to assist in suicide; he did not abduct US or Soviet spacecraft. Finally, in the book, Kissy was the main heroine and Aki did not appear at all.

#24

Excpet that in the books Bond is a much darker charachter. Then there is the Bond Girl thing.

#25

Awsome movie ! ! ! !

#26

Well Good old Monty did it again this Field Marshal coulden’t find his ass with both hands. Not only did he convince Ike that this was a good plan he did the #1 no no he didn’t listen to his intel reports. Several reports about German movements by the Dutch Resistance had reached allied Command by September 10th 7 days before the planned operation They even Identified the German armour units Bedell Smith flew to his headquarters to suggest several changes to the operation which Monty was unwilling to institute.A reconnaissance flight returned with photos of deployed tanks just 8 miles from the British drop zones he dismissed the photos by saying that the tanks were broke down. All this just one month after his failure to close the Falaise pocket and allowing 150,000 German troops escape capture some of which were now going to meet his Airborne troops at arnem and destroy them under Gerd von Rundstedt and Walter Model, Model proclaimed as allied planes flew overhead that “If I only had such a force I could win the war”

Cavalry Gunner

#27

Dont know if i would go that far. Just watched a history channel special on this. Their are reports the recon photos exist but none have ever been found. Forget where all these photos are…but they were basically just thrown together after the war and the catalog system forgotten. People have been going thru the photos and re identifying them. Maybe in the future. Most nations preferred their own intell vs others sources. Especially involving operations of this size.

The blame is not Monty’s alone. He devised the plan but Ike approved it. And that just at the top. Alot happened on the ground that further caused problems. IMO even if 30 corps would have gotten there in decent time the Germans would have stopped them cold at Arnhem. Every military commander botches a situation at some point.

#28

The reason Ike approved it was because Gen. Marshall ordered him to. As it is the relationship between the English and American leaders was kinda shaky, so Gen. Marshall ordered Ike to do whatever it takes to keep the Brits happy.

#29

And so it wasnt totally Monty’s fault…who happened claim it had been 90% successful. Monty was a good general but IMO just as loony as Patton if not worse!

#30

Hind sight is always 20/20.

If I were some of the people commenting on this point, I would remember the above saying.

It is quite easy to point out the German strength in this area now. We know they were there.

At the time, the Allied offensive was stalling and a break out was needed. Ahead of the assembled war machine lay a large amount of close fighting. Market Garden offered a chance to get around the Germans and in to Industrial Germany.

Yes, that the troops were there was not in doubt. What was in doubt was the numbers and there state. Unmentioned are the large numbers of troops in the German side that were indeed recouping their losses from battle. The fully ready units were, unfortunatly, mixed in with these.

Likewise air recce rarely tells a General everything, nor does SigInt (that also indicated the presense of a SS Panzer Div) and the locals gave conflicting reports also. None got so close as the little boy depicted in the film.

Was Market Garden a success? I would say not entirely. Although it succeded in capturing a number of bridges, establishing a break out and tieing up a large number of German forces.

On the other hand can anyone here think of a better plan?

As for whose fault it was. It may make you feel better to blame anyone person, maybe even that that person is a different nationality, or perhaps you merely follow fashion (or comments in films) and pin on a person that way.

In truth? There are probably many who share varying degrees of blame for Market Garden. Monty Planned it, but it was authorised by others. If it were only agreed to “to keep the Brits happy” then it showed remarkable lack of moral courage on behalf of those who chose to pursue that goal.

On the ground Airbourne forces often point the finger at 30 XXX, yet both American Divs failed to achieve some of their objectives and slowed 30 down. The British Airbourne deployed with all manner of technical faults, such as radios.

It is hard, whilst sifting through the facts, to find one man responsible, or one act as the pivotal point.

If Market Garden had not happened, then I would suggest the Paras would have been used else where. Possibly in a different flanking move or as reinforcement to a massive armoured push. These moves also would have cost many men their lives, and would have taken time to prepare and pursue.

The Airbourne Divs wouldn’t have been left kicking their heels in Britainfor long.

The war could have been drawn out for longer, and the Russians may even have got further in to Germany, causeing greater tension during the Cold War.

This is the problem with these make believe threads, you can’t know for sure what would or wouldn’t happen.

Especially if you base your extrapolations on films that are loosely based on events.

#31

Ever heard of the “Englandspiel” (Operation Nordpol)? From August 1941 until August 1943, the German Abwehr (Counterespionage) managed to infiltrate the Dutch resistance to a degree, where agents airdropped into the Netherlands by the SOE were captured right on landing. SOE radio operators were forced to continue sending messages back to the UK under German control in a huge disinformation campaign. Only long after two SOE agents escaped from a German prison in the Netherlands and managed to return to the UK via Switzerland did the British intelligence community discover that they had been had. The last faked messages sent by German controlled radio operators were sent in April 1944.
Thus it is little surprising that at this time British intelligence took any information coming from Dutch resistance with extreme suspicion. Who could know if the information about SS Panzerdivisions resting around Arnhem might not have been a ruse set up by the Germans to discourage an Allied operation in this area?

More information about the Englandspiel:
Leo Marks: “Between Silk and Cyanide” Marks was the chief cryptographer of the SOE and one of the first to suspect German interference in the radio traffic.

M.R.D. Foot “The SOE in the low Countries”, a rather scholarly book about the operation of the SOE in the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg.

Jan

#32

Cromwells I think.

#33

The planning for all of the Airbourne divisions - particularly those dropped on Arnhem and Nijmegen was really quite bad, and failed to take into account all the lessons which had been applied when seizing Pegasus Bridge on D-Day. Trying to set up an airhead 5 miles from a defended point target simply isn’t going to work well, and this was well known long before the drops on Arnhem and Nijmegen.
The other major fault was in failing to clear the approaches to Antwerp a great deal earlier. Had this been done a huge number of German troops from the channel coast would have been captured (IIRC in similar numbers to Falaise, or even Tunisia and Stalingrad) and the US/UK supply problems would have disappeared practically overnight. IMHO responsibility with that one lies with Eisenhower - it was a theatre level decision to make, so was properly the province of the theatre commander.

#34

True. The British were more focused on the German airborne’s (Pyrrhic) victory on Crete than they were on the coup de main on D-Day…

#35

Market Garden is a strange one. Monty was known for his caution and yethere he seems to throw caution to the wind. Monty cant win, if he is methodical and cautious (Normandy Campaign) he is blasted for being too slow. If he throws caution out and just goes on the chance, then he should have been more methodical.

The man himself may have been a pain in the Arse, but then so was Patton. He did get the job done and after all it was him who had won Normandy… Some people seem to gloss over the fact that Normandy was his battle and simply see the faults.

#36

And both were capable, but overrated…

#37

It wasn’t just the UK - the US Airbourne forces made exactly the same mistake at Nijmegen, and it cost the Guards Armoured division a couple of days trying to get through. Had either of them understood the lessons of the earlier Airbourne drops, Market Garden might not have been the disaster it was. Had they both, the chances are it would have succeeded even despite the Panzers around Arnhem.

#38

1000yardstare has made some excellent points. An interesting point you might not know, under the original plan Operation Market was to be the British 1st Airbourne Div., U.S. 82nd Airborne Div and the 101st Airborne Div from south to north. However a change was made inverting the 1st A/B Div and the 101st. The plan was also switched for the 82nd and 101st as well. There is no official written explanation for the switch of the British and U.S. Div’s however many historians feel that Monty wanted a British unit to be the first over the Rhine and therefore win the “prize”.

#39

Here is the link to the documents about changing the divisions’ area of responnsibility.

http://p198.ezboard.com/ftriggertimeforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=9418.topic

#40

Dallas, thanks for your positive input on the boards and hello from me.