IRA Irish Republican Army

Off-Topic Off Topic - Militaria
#41

I have no idea what you mean by that, mate. I’m sorry if I know the history, but it’s not being clever, it’s providing context…

Of course there were/are. Some of us have witnessed them. The use of a Black & Decker power drill (as I have already alluded to) was one such.

Of course. But then, how did it ever get to that situation?

What were the police doing in 1969?

If they fucking can’t keep rioters from trying to burn out the Catholic population of Derry. Then they’ve lost all hope of the pretense of being a community police force…

And you believe that??

You obviosly have not witnesed the hate and distrust these two communities have for each other. That report is very niave.

What should I believe? There have been no major terror attacks since 1998. And the very reason Sinn Fein is doing well in elections (surpassing the the moderate SDLP) is because they have renounced “physical force.”

You call that policing? You seem to be susceptible to the propaganda.

No. I call it vigilantism resulting from a failed, semi-lawless state…

Please explain what you mean by corrupt. You see, I would have called it bias.

Semantics. There were ties between the RUC and the UDR and loyalist thugs. They also largely stood aside or even in some cases took part in the rioting or the late 1960s.

Of course they did, it was a very dirty business.

Well, I guess lawlessness and killing is okay in certain circumstances then?

Now, that really is silly.

And that’s premature.

Maybe. But has the terrorism largely stopped or has it not?

They’ve given up the Armilite to get more of the ballot box…

Nick

Unless you’ve trod the streets and allyways, the lanes and the hedgerows - please don’t lecture Cuts,

Firstly, I’m not lecturing anyone. And secondly, don’t lecture me while telling me not to lecture…

…who has been there and done it. One cannot begin to understand the situation as was and still remains in Ulster, unless you’ve been there and tasted the hatred. It would be akin to describing to a Vietnam vet what it was like in Vietnam.

Um, perhaps you failed to read my first response in which I lived with a kid from Northern Ireland and indeed “tasted the hatred.” And your response is tantamount to saying that an American Vietnam veteran knows more about Vietnam than the Vietnamese who lived there.

Spare me. It took an American to get anything fucking done in that place to begin with. Did he walk around Armagh with an SLR or Enfield? It’s precisely because he didn’t that he was able to help mediate a solution rather than just repeating the cycle of violence and retribution or perpetual stalemate…

#42

That would be okay, if itwere correct.

Of course. But then, how did it ever get to that situation?

What were the police doing in 1969?

The cause of the Civil Rights Movement in the late sixties has no bearing on the cause of the IRA who jumped on the bandwagon in order to promote their own agenda, which was one of power.

If they fucking can’t keep rioters from trying to burn out the Catholic population of Derry. Then they’ve lost all hope of the pretense of being a community police force…

:confused: :confused:

What should I believe? There have been no major terror attacks since 1998. And the very reason Sinn Fein is doing well in elections (surpassing the the moderate SDLP) is because they have renounced “physical force.”

It’s not for me to tell you hat to believe, however, if you think it’s finished you’re very mistaken. It’s simply lying dormant while the overt operations have taken a different form.

No. I call it vigilantism resulting from a failed, semi-lawless state…

It’s not even that. It’s racketeering gangsterism. Your version implies that the people living in these areas embrace the ideals of these groups. The majority simply wan to be left alone, to live in peace and get on with their lives. If you believe that the Provies, or their ‘Loyalist’ counterparts, ever brought peace and order to these areas then you are very much mistaken.

Semantics. There were ties between the RUC and the UDR and loyalist thugs. They also largely stood aside or even in some cases took part in the rioting or the late 1960s.

Well, I guess lawlessness and killing is okay in certain circumstances then?

No it isn’t. But big boys games, big boys rules.

Maybe. But has the terrorism largely stopped or has it not?

Emphatically NO! But perhaps N.I. isn’t newsworthy anymore.

They’ve given up the Armilite to get more of the ballot box…

They’ve handed a few over.

Firstly, I’m not lecturing anyone. And secondly, don’t lecture me while telling me not to lecture…

Oh I think you were. So, fair game.

Um, perhaps you failed to read my first response in which I lived with a kid from Northern Ireland and indeed “tasted the hatred.” And your response is tantamount to saying that an American Vietnam veteran knows more about Vietnam than the Vietnamese who lived there.

Actually, I did. A child’s perspective makes you an expert?

Spare me. It took an American to get anything fucking done in that place to begin with. Did he walk around Armagh with an SLR or Enfield? It’s precisely because he didn’t that he was able to help mediate a solution rather than just repeating the cycle of violence and retribution or perpetual stalemate…

Spare you…are you kidding?

Irish-Americans have been funding the situation for decades.

#43

Well, if we’re posting videos, here’s the central problem with both the Republicans and Unionists, “The Michael Collin’s Problem.” (From the BBC’s South Bank Show):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzqkoiP0TQI&feature=related

#44

No need to get shirty, old chap.

#45

You’re obviously a true believer !

#46

Just a point of corrrection/clarification. It was the reserve B Specials who were often at the frontline when the Catholic population was being attacked in the late 1960s, and there was never any pretence of them being a “community police force”. They were ostensibly a Unionist force, recruited from the Protestant community, and many from the same locales as the attackers. They were often complicit in the anti-Catholic actions, and were disbanded in 1970, after the Hunt Report.

#47

Oh, and another thing I’ve just remembered. Gerry Adams used to answer the phones for the IRA.

One of my teachers at school grew up over there, and after the IRA nicked his parent’s car for the umpteenth time for use in an attack his mum phoned up to give them an ear-bashing. Gerry Adams answered the phone with the words “Hello, IRA.”

#48

Very true. Getting rid of the B Specials was one of the first and best actions of the British govermnent at the time.

The British Army entered Northern Ireland to protect the RC community from the Prods. The IRA weren’t having any of that.

#49

In my opinion, the two most important policies of the British Army in Northern Ireland were: the use of minimum force and hearts-and-minds’.

It didn’t always work as best as it could or should have, Bloody Sunday comes to mind, but for the main part it did. That was the way soldiers were trained, and their ‘yellow card’ - rules of engagement, not to be ignored - reinforces those policies.

Anyone reading through threads where I have partaken in discussions on irregular warfare will see that I big-up Hearts-and-minds. After serving two four month tours, one eighteen month tour and two six months tours in just about every area of N.I. since the earliest days of the recent ‘Troubles’ I wouldn’t be advocating its use if I didn’t believe it to be the right way.

I’m not a pacifist but neither do I condone needless or wanton bloodshed.

#50

Yes, that things can change for the better…

#51

Me too, but I Doubt that supporting and funding terrorist organisations will achieve it.

#52

Well, there’s little doubt that both Gerry and Martin (Mcguinness) were senior IRA commanders that have transitioned on a very murky slope to Sinn Fein, which was effectively taken over as the IRA party by the 1950s…

What’s interesting is that the intelligence establishment were unable, or unwilling, to prevent the IRA from having their own bat-phone…

#53

Agreed!

#54

Again, totally agreed. The British Army had the unenviable position of being caught in-between warring tribes. And for many reasons, became one of them.

It didn’t always work as best as it could or should have, Bloody Sunday comes to mind, but for the main part it did. That was the way soldiers were trained, and their ‘yellow card’ - rules of engagement, not to be ignored - reinforces those policies.

With such tensions going on, tragedies were bound to happen. Unfortunately, the British Army went from drinking tea in Catholic neighborhoods to being the equivalent of US Calvary stationed at a fort in Apache land…

Anyone reading through threads where I have partaken in discussions on irregular warfare will see that I big-up Hearts-and-minds. After serving two four month tours, one eighteen month tour and two six months tours in just about every area of N.I. since the earliest days of the recent ‘Troubles’ I wouldn’t be advocating its use if I didn’t believe it to be the right way.

I’m not a pacifist but neither do I condone needless or wanton bloodshed.

In many ways, the Irish Republican engagement in (mostly) politics and the further community dissociation of using violence can be seen as the most successful aspect of enlightened British counterinsurgency…

#55

If they had become one of them, they would have finished it a long time ago.
The British Army’s role as peacekeepers was always paramount. It was for the politicians to resolve the situation.

With such tensions going on, tragedies were bound to happen. Unfortunately, the British Army went from drinking tea in Catholic neighborhoods to being the equivalent of US Calvary stationed at a fort in Apache land…

A one-off incident is hardly Fort Apache. The soldiers exercised a lot of discipline for years. The Paras were the wrong people to send into those areas that day.

One should balance what the propaganda machine of the Provies milked from that situation, with the amount of lives that were protected, on both sides of the divided, from sectarian murder. The British Army was in the middle, not trying to be all things to all people, but attempting maintain some form of order. Even in the hardest of Republican areas, there were those who would prefer to see them there than not. If the para-militaries had not continued a campaign of bombing and murder, the people would have felt they did not need them and they would have become alienated. So, they had their own agenda and they continued to try to force it through by keeping the situation hot.

In many ways, the Irish Republican engagement in (mostly) politics and the further community dissociation of using violence can be seen as the most successful aspect of enlightened British counterinsurgency…

Sinn Fein have constantly made the distinction between themselves and the IRA. WHether one cares to believe it or not is an individual concern. However, those people who did elect members of Sinn Fein did so because they made that distinction. Not because they felt they were electing the IRA.

Incidentally, many soldiers with whom I served sympathised with the civil rights movement because of the injustices of the sytem in N.I. at that time. However, the IRA were not about the civil rights movement, and much of what the civil rights movement were organising against was resolved a very long time ago.

The world has changed a lot since 1969. The face of Europe and European politics has also changed. As we continue into the 21st Century as a part of Europe, the call for a united Ireland becomes somewhat academic. Add to that the situation with global terrorism and one can see why it was prudent for the IRA to declare an end to hostilites. But I would say it is not the way fo these people to give up their power bases and there is much terror and intimidation continuing in both communities today. Much of it we do not hear about as it is politically sensitive and no one wants to rock the boat. In time, when the people of N.I. learn to trust their police, then perhaps an end might come to the way of the thug and racketeer.

There is truth and there is perception, and a lot of what we perceive is what we are meant to perceive.

#56

If they had become one of them, they would have finished it a long time ago.
The British Army’s role as peacekeepers was always paramount. It was for the politicians to resolve the situation.

With such tensions going on, tragedies were bound to happen. Unfortunately, the British Army went from drinking tea in Catholic neighborhoods to being the equivalent of US Calvary stationed at a fort in Apache land…

A one-off incident is hardly Fort Apache. The soldiers exercised a lot of discipline for years. The Paras were the wrong people to send into those areas that day.

One should balance what the propaganda machine of the Provies milked from that situation, with the amount of lives that were protected, on both sides of the divide, from sectarian murder. The British Army was in the middle, not trying to be all things to all people, but attempting maintain some form of order. Even in the hardest of Republican areas, there were those who would prefer to see them there than not and the Army maintained a presence i.e. men on foot on the ground patrolling and policing. If the para-militaries had not continued a campaign of bombing and murder, the people would have felt they did not need them and they would have become alienated. So, they had their own agenda and they continued to try to force it through by keeping the situation hot.

Equally, the Loyalists attempted to maintain the status quo. People like Paisley and his cronies. They too had their agenda and worked at keeping their people hostile to any form of agreement. As did the loyalist para-militarists by, not only intimidating their own, but going out and commiting sectarian murder.

In many ways, the Irish Republican engagement in (mostly) politics and the further community dissociation of using violence can be seen as the most successful aspect of enlightened British counterinsurgency…

Sinn Fein have constantly made the distinction between themselves and the IRA. WHether one cares to believe it or not is an individual concern. However, those people who did elect members of Sinn Fein did so because they made that distinction. Not because they felt they were electing the IRA.

Incidentally, many soldiers with whom I served sympathised with the civil rights movement because of the injustices of the sytem in N.I. at that time. However, the IRA were not about the civil rights movement, and much of what the civil rights movement were organising against was resolved a very long time ago.

The world has changed a lot since 1969. The face of Europe and European politics has also changed. As we continue into the 21st Century as a part of Europe, the call for a united Ireland becomes somewhat academic. Add to that the situation with global terrorism and one can see why it was prudent for the IRA to declare an end to hostilites. But I would say it is not the way fo these people to give up their power bases and there is much terror and intimidation continuing in both communities today. Much of it we do not hear about as it is politically sensitive and no one wants to rock the boat. In time, when the people of N.I. learn to trust their police, then perhaps an end might come to the way of the thug and racketeer.

There is truth and there is perception, and a lot of what we perceive is what we are meant to perceive.

Let’s hope that the people of those communities can find peace and hapiness.

#57

Interestingly, I recall reading in one of Coogan’s books regarding the negotiations between the IRA’s “senior command” and the gov’t of Harold Wilson (I think) prior to the ceasefire in the mid-1970s. The subject of “what if the media finds out that the British gov’t held talks with the IRA?” was raised by an IRA member.

The answer was from one of the ministers, “then all bets are off!”

Several months later, after the truce broke-down, Gerry Adams (who was on the negotiating committee for the IRA) was picked up by the RUC. He then found himself being repeatedly punched by an interrogator who would punctuate each thrust of his fist with “all fucking bets are off, Gerry!”

#58

Full marks to the Wilson government for having the courage to try to find a way to peace despite the political climate.

#59

I was going to let sleeping dogs lie, on this one. However, it concerns me that their may be an impression given that the heroes of the cause were dealing with a brutal regime. So, to redress the balance a little.
This is what happened when one of our chaps was captured by the provies. Fortunately, for him, they never quite realized whom they had, otherwise heaven help him if they had.

He had gone out alone and - when it became clear he was missing - no one new where or why. He was abducted outside a pub by a number of provies. When they had beaten him into submission, they took him to a meat factory across the border. He was then stripped naked and stuck up on a meat hook. Hanging there, they through buckets of water over him and proceeded to interrogate him with an electric cattle prodder. He stuck to his story, which was that he was sticky, from Belfast. In the end having gotten no more from him, they brought in a gunman and finished him. His remains were then put through a mincing machine and then fed to pigs.

Later when the intelligence came in, the truth of what had happened was related to the Queen, who insisted he be awarded the George Cross. Many soldiers died heroic deaths in N.I. sacrificing their own lives by shielding innocent bystanders with their own bodies, but none were awarded the George Cross, such was the power of the intelligence on the fate of this chap.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/may/20/northernireland.ireland

#60

Time for the IRA to catch up

Witnesses in the Robert McCartney murder case were too scared to testify. Has the peace process in Northern Ireland really filtered down to ground level?

All three of those accused of the Robert McCartney murder have been acquitted. The dead man’s sister Catherine noted:

We hadn’t got very high expectations. As a layperson sitting in that court listening to the evidence we have heard, would I have put someone away on that evidence? No. I wouldn’t have so I can’t expect the judge to do so.

Back in 2005, Sinn Féin invited all the sisters and McCartney’s girlfriend to its annual conference. Gerry Adams, party president spoke about the dreadful nature of the crime, but then went on to qualify these remarks a few moments later by underwriting the extralegal political purposes of the IRA:

We know what a crime is both in the moral and legal sense, and our view is the same as the majority of people. We know that breaking the law is a crime. But we refuse to criminalise those who break the law in pursuit of legitimate political objectives.

Unsurprisingly perhaps, and despite a huge number of pious messages from both the IRA and Sinn Féin, the only witnesses to take the stand were two survivors of the attack, and a woman driver (witness C) who was simply passing by. Witnesses A and B refused to testify because even the anonymity being offered by the court was not enough to make them feel safe enough to do so.

No one – neither current nor former members – from the republican movement (including the defendants) took the witness stand. Party self interest came before the more general interests of justice.

Robert McCartney’s murder was short, brutal and entirely without any political cause. Yet, since it had been carried out by an “off duty” IRA team, it caused Sinn Féin huge political embarrassment. It also pointed to a wider problem within so-called republican communities which the party had. At the time, Brendan O’Neill, writing on Spiked, observed:

In an attempt to rein the crisis in, Adams seems willing even to upset his colleagues in the IRA by taking a hard line over criminality and the McCartney murder. But where he and the IRA might succeed in resolving the McCartney affair and appeasing the grieving McCartney family, they can do little to stem the wider moral disintegration of republican communities in Northern Ireland. The McCartney murder acted as a catalyst for a deeper malaise within post-republican republican communities.

Three years later – and just over a year since the party finally recognised the police – even people firmly lodged within the “green zone” of Martin McGuinness’s own movement are becoming victims. Three men in the last few months have been killed in Belfast and Derry, the latest being 23-year-old Emmet Sheils. The grief of his father and mother is as palpable as that of the McCartney sisters.

McGuinness has told the killers that they don’t have a mandate for what they are doing; that they have come to a fork in the road, and it is now time to decide whether they are for a peaceful future, or not. But there is no reference to McGuinness’s own problematic journey from gunman to junior statesman.

In its recent campaign to have powers of oversight on policing and justice devolved to Stormont, Sinn Féin has, rather belatedly, been lauding the ways of civil policing and the criminal justice system. Their partners in government, the Democratic Unionist party, don’t believe that there is sufficient confidence in their own community, but have signalled a willingness to find an interim solution that will help build that confidence. If it bears fruit, we are not likely to know much before the end of the summer.

From the beginning, the peace process was a behaviourist project. It was never as interested in genuine changes of hearts and minds, as it was in outward behaviours. Moral consciousness and other forms of introspection were of little interest – and possibly of little practical use – to a society conditioned to profoundly self-harming behaviour.

Sinn Féin is now determined on stabilising the peace. But it needs to find a way of acquiring new habits of mind to go with its new political status. And it will need to find ways of serving the general will, rather than its own narrow, party-political self interest.

But, as Aristotle noted, it is often difficult for an individual to become virtuous if he or she has not acquired the habit of acting virtuously. The same may be said for political parties. Sinn Féin, reconciled at long last to a peaceful pursuit of its long term goal of a united Ireland, has, it seems, still to learn the power of the virtuous act.

And that may yet prove the movement’s long-term undoing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/02/northernireland.gerryadams