Is It Too Late For England

Here is an interesting site…
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

FIREARM USE IN CRIME AND SELF DEFENSE

  • In the United States during 1997, there were 15,289 murders. Of these, 10,369 were committed with firearms. (2)

  • In the United States during 1997, there were approximately 7,927,000 violent crimes. Of these, 691,000 were committed with firearms. (12)

  • As of 1992, for every 14 violent crimes (murder, rape, etc…) committed in the United States, one person is sentenced to prison. (62)

  • As of 1992, average length of imprisonment for:

    Murder
    10.0 years

Rape
7.6 years

Aggravated Assault
3.4 years

(63)

  • In the early/mid 1990’s, criminals on parole or early release from prison committed about 5,000 murders, 17,000 rapes, and 200,000 robberies a year. (3)

  • Americans use firearms to defend themselves from criminals at least 764,000 times a year. This figure is the lowest among a group of 9 nationwide surveys done by organizations including Gallup and the Los Angeles Times. (16b)

  • In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been “scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim.” (16c)

  • Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)

Ummm… Mike, from this side of the pond those numbers look more like a demonstration that US police are utterly incompetent and very little like an objective demonstration that general firearms ownership is a good thing. Are your police really that bad?

Exactly. 10000 firearms murders alone???
We had 205 murders in germany in 1997 and that includes ALL means. But hey, we only had a third of the population :shock:
From over here you look more like a third world country in a civil war scenario like ruanda with such a murder deaths count.

That wasn’t the bit that jumped out at me. Rather, it was the rate of 1 conviction for every 14 violent crimes, coupled with the implication that a substantial fraction of those in jail were actually captured by the general public rather than the police.

For murders, it’s only fair to point out that the US has several problems with drugs and the like which aren’t as prevalent in Germany, coupled with a relatively Darwinistic social system which combined seem to encourage gang behaviour in a more extreme fashion than in Europe. This gang behaviour appears to be behind a rather high fraction of murders in the US.

That’s part of the point guys…our police departments are great here but law enforcement can’t protect anyone - They can only respond to a crime after it’s been committed. If you want protection you need to provide your own.
Remember what I said about the Riots here? I watched from a fire truck as the L. A. P. D. let looters go to and from stores taking what they wanted. Not that the officers wanted too but the orders from the upper command was to do nothing. Look what happened to that poor truck driver ( Reginald denny) at the corner of Florence and Normandy…police didn’t do squat…they were told not too.
The stores that were NOT BURNED DOWN…were protected by the stores owners with weapons…not by the LAPD.

How many of those 10,000 murders with firearms were bad guy to bad guy…I don’t know, but I do know we have a lot of gang bangers killing other gang bangers which suits me just fine…

I would assume that some of that is, its hard to get gang banger to testify against another banger…they Handel it themselves. Another big part would be LAWYERS…I bet we have more lawyers in this country than we have doctors or police…
remember…they caught O.J. Simpson for the murder of Ron and Nicole…but a team of Lawyers got him off… They found his blood at the scene for Christ sake…
A big big big reason would also be plea bargains…and the knucklehead people on the jury. Our police here in L.A. have a tough job

You sure got that right…if you want an eye opener check out the links posted. In one gang alone MS 13 started here in Los Angeles has over 10,000 members in several states…

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-me-gang15may15,1,6116894.story

http://www.streetgangs.com/crips/

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-05-gang-grows_x.htm

“Our worst suspicions about MS-13 have been confirmed” by the Houston shooting and other recent gang-related incidents, Clifford says.
From low-income neighborhoods in Los Angeles, MS-13 has spread throughout the USA, largely following the migration patterns of immigrants from El Salvador and other Central American nations. With a membership that the FBI estimates could be as high as 10,000, MS-13 is most active in Los Angeles, the Mid-Atlantic, Rhode Island and Connecticut.

Authorities are scrambling to contain forces unleashed in part by past U.S. policies. Refugees formed the gang in the 1980s near MacArthur Park, just west of downtown Los Angeles, after fleeing a U.S.-backed civil war against insurgents in El Salvador. As the gang grew, immigration officials began a decade-long campaign to deport members, including ex-convicts and hardened leaders who helped spread MS-13 across Central America and solidify its structure."

edited to add: I think we see where the prob is but all these gang bangers have rights…and they think banning my guns will solve this…LOL

I thought what Ted did best was being a meglomanical asshole with an elevated opinion of himself, having a marginal impact on music as a repetitive, cliche guitarist that was too limited to write decent stuff consistently. And he was too much of a cunt to work with anybody else in a collaboration, which was when he was most interesting…

I do like some of his stuff and he has decent “chops” on guitar though, I will admit…

edited to add: While other rock stars were out doing drugs. overdosing and dying Ted was out enjoying his 2nd amendment right which gave him the chance to collect and shoot weapons and hunt. When he wasnt doing that he was bagging chicks…:wink:

LOL So what was Ted’s excuse for a mediocre (at best) music career where no one outside the US knows him and most in the US dismiss him as a joke that lost most of his money to conmen and embezzlers?

Oh and BTW, Ted is filled with enormous amounts of shit. He’s done drugs and drinks, though socially and moderately (I’ve heard)…

Which is ironic, since “Terrible” Ted is a pussybitch, chickenhawk draft dodger that literally shit himself and refused to shower for a month so he appeared to be mentally ill for his Vietnam era draft board. All he had to do was be himself!:smiley:

Super American patriot indeed!:rolleyes:

Or he could have pretended to be gay like Jim Morrison did, which seemed to be a much easier, smarter way too go. Or he could have actually served, like Jimi Hendrix did (in the 101st Airborne)…

Oh an BTW, Ted is also known to be a complete borderline pedophile pervert that screwed numerous teenage girls, even adopting one so he could use her as his concubine…Which is a pity, because if they were boys, he could have run as a Republican for Congress.:wink:

Um, WTF is this “list?” Seriously, I never said or indicated 80% of the above “Ironingman.”

You want to make my case now? Sorry man, I do it much better than you do, and you know this. Which is why you rewrite my posts with what you think I said…

This is actually getting pretty close to blatant sophistic trolling…

I have better idea. Quote me where I supposedly said this, then comment, and I’ll get back to you…

Why I couldn’t agree more Mikey, which is why (to answer your question), my MiniMee is in another state. This coupled with the fact that I have little use for it here as I’ve moved to suburban hell. You see I used to take it into the boundless woodlands south of Buffalo, NY and go ‘plinking’…

However, I’m getting a Virginia driver’s license which means I’ll effectively have an unrestricted, no questions asked gun permit. So, I’ll probably break down and buy a .45 variant and a few other pistols…:slight_smile:

LOL “Police interviews?” “Safety tests?” Something that will make the US National Rifle Association hate you and cackle like old women losing on bingo night…

The ACLU?

Really?

Are you sure? I could be wrong Mike, but I think the ACLU avoids any sort of involvement because this is not their purview. Please prove me wrong, because I actually could be on this one. But I seriously, SERIOUSLY, doubt it!

Our law enforcement are one of the prime movers behind the Assault Rifle ban which you hate so much…

Remember what I said about the Riots here? I watched from a fire truck as the L. A. P. D. let looters go to and from stores taking what they wanted. Not that the officers wanted too but the orders from the upper command was to do nothing. Look what happened to that poor truck driver ( Reginald denny) at the corner of Florence and Normandy…police didn’t do squat…they were told not too.

It’s pretty horrible what happened to him. An innocent man, victimized and beaten simply because he was the wrong color and in the wrong place at the wrong time…

I agree that the terrorist, racist heathens that did that need to go down to prison for a long, long time…

The stores that were NOT BURNED DOWN…were protected by the stores owners with weapons…not by the LAPD.

So a highly paid, well staffed and well equipped police force was unable to deal with the violence they helped create by beating the shit out of Rodney King?

How many of those 10,000 murders with firearms were bad guy to bad guy…I don’t know, but I do know we have a lot of gang bangers killing other gang bangers which suits me just fine…

But why should they need Ak-47s (AKMs and the variants actually) bought by NY state college students (in Virginia) to do the job?

In any case, I’m out and off. Happy New Years everyone. Especially too our UK friends who have been in 2008 for a while now…

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike M.
Oh really…here are some questions that you seem to ignore after you posted ridiculous statements with nothing to back up what you claim. Talk about cherry picking.

#1) and some people with no real terror connections are banned from flying. But they can go buy as many guns as they want? Does that make any sense? Really? Do you have any facts to back this statement up?

#2) If you check they link above you will see all types of Ruger Mini 14’s , MY MINI 14GB is the 4th down, yours is the 6 or 7 down. Please tell me why mine should be banned and yours should not.

#3) If you have an example / facts of someone selling to this group please be sure to be specific.

#4) Why do you have your Ruger Mini 14 stored in another state?

#5) Oh really? look in your morning paper, how many private citizens are selling cars from home and how many are selling guns? Remember this was asked when you said it was easier to buy a gun than it is a car.

THESE WERE QUESTIONS FOR YOU I GOT THEM FROM STATEMENTS YOU MADE, LIST IS BELOW.

While I am happy with NZ laws for the most part, the problem with the anti’s is that they keep pushing for more and more restrictions (this applies for the UK, USA, Oz, Canada, NZ etc).

The only way to deal with people for whom the abolision of civilian ownership of firearms borders on Religious fanatism is to draw your line in the sand and say “it stops here!”. The UK learnt this too late, Australian shooters learnt it too late, NZ shooters are slowly learning the lesson and the shooting community in the USA has taken it to heart (for the most part).

Let’s see if there really is anyone who’s totally opposed to gun control.

All those in favour of letting everyone have any gun they want, say yes.

This of course includes people convicted of violent gun and other violent crime that wounded people, armed robbers who didn’t actually wound anyone (yet), certified violent nut cases, certified nut cases expressing violent intentions, five year old children who like things that go bang and want to fix up their kindergarten teacher, the crazy old man down the street who wants to shoot dogs and children who cut the corner across his lawn, and so on.

If you think the law should prohibit such people getting their hands on any weapon they want, you’re in favour of gun control.

The only difference between you and people who want stronger controls, who’ve been the object of much criticism in this thread, is that you don’t agree on where to draw the line. But you and the people you oppose all agree that a line should be drawn.

As for the Second Amendment argument, the right established is

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

It doesn’t say “the right of the people, other than convicted felons, people of violent propensity, and dangerously mad people, to bear arms, shall not be infringed”.

So, those who rely upon the Second Amendment as the source for arguments that gun controls are wrong shouldn’t have any problem with convicted felons, violent thugs, and dangerously mad people, along with children of any age, winning a court case to establish that current laws which deprive them of access to guns are an unconstitutional infringement of their right to bear arms.

Unless you want to see crims and crazies get all the guns they want, this isn’t a debate about gun control or constitutional rights, but about where to draw the line in controlling guns, or who’s allowed to have them if you want to put it that way, with the same result.

Now, who’s in favour of there being no control of any type on who can have as many guns of any type they like?

Hardly - such people consist of more than 90% of the UK population. In a democratic state you simply can’t just draw a line in the sand and ignore such views.
Oh, and also, IIRC when the majority of UK gun laws were introduced it was in response to an internal terrorist threat (the IRA). While they were still able to get weapons (mostly from the US or various Soviet client states) it did succeed in it’s primary aim of limiting this supply and preventing civil war in Northern Ireland. While they have outgrown their purpose, they are also genuinely popular.

The amusing thing is that those who wrote the constitution clearly had in mind the militia as being the whole populace in arms. Hence, anyone who owns a firearm in the US is part of the militia.
Now it seems self-evident to me (although it appears never to have been done) that the militia was intended to be there for the government to call upon in times of national emergency - a sort of backup emergency army for a state that never really wanted a standing military force. Hence, from this you can conclude that the state has the right to call upon the militia for some form of service in the event of an emergency, when this service is critical to the “security of a free state”.
I can just imagine the political fireworks if anyone tried this however!

Thanks for that.

I haven’t had so much fun reading about a real turd since the last time I looked at the background of prominent Australian politicians.

What an interesting man Google has revealed.

Courtney Love says she gave him a head job when she was twelve. Good one, Ted. http://www.roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=20690

Ted runs Kamp for Kids. http://www.tednugent.com/hunting/kamp/ What a nice man, to do that for kids who’ve been screwed over in life with things like, well, I guess, maybe having sex with paedophile adults. Good one, Ted.

Curious that some homosexuals use kamp rather than camp to describe themselves.

It’s probably only a matter of time before stuff comes out about Ted that makes Michael Jackson look halfway normal.

I think there’s enough hypocrisy there to illustrate his real commitment to fighting for the America he claims to love. He makes Bill Clinton look like a Vietnam veteran and Dubya look like a distinguished lurp.

Somewhat like the reverse of the Swiss, where everyone is in and the state issues the weapons.

Now it seems self-evident to me (although it appears never to have been done) that the militia was intended to be there for the government to call upon in times of national emergency - a sort of backup emergency army for a state that never really wanted a standing military force.

Yes, but which government? The contemporary reference to ‘State’ is to the individual states of the confederation of states which then comprised the United States. Hence the state governors having primary control of the militias. The standing army issue goes back to Charles I and then to Cromwell, and the fear of a standing army being able to usurp parliament and instal a dictator. The concerns about a standing army are rather ironic, considering the size of America’s standing army, navy and air force since WWII. And even more ironic in Britain, where Cromwell’s Model Army generated the original concern.

Hence, from this you can conclude that the state has the right to call upon the militia for some form of service in the event of an emergency, when this service is critical to the “security of a free state”.

Which has its origins in the English, and other, systems of citizens providing military force going back to the fuedal obligations in the Middle Ages.

The problem with old and rigid constitutions is that they can be, indeed have to be, interpreted centuries later to deal with circumstances which were never in the mind of the constitution’s authors. We have that problem with our written constitution, barely 110 years old, based in part upon the American one with the individual liberty bits left out, which sought to deal with a range of contemporary but now largely non-existent states’ rights and states’ fear of the national government issues, among other things, that are totally irrelevant now, but which are still fertile sources for complex constitutional cases that make your brain hurt to read.

Britain avoids these American and Australian difficulties by not having states and by having an unwritten constitution, although it has a written constitution of sorts going back to Magna Carta with subsequent additions flowing from later events, like the consequences of the Star Chamber, which became part of the law and national tradition.

Britain is, compared the American constitution, vulnerable to the state taking away freedoms because it doesn’t have a complete written constitution, as is Australia with no civil rights enshrined in its constitution. Conversely, the absence of a single document allows Britain to respond more flexibly to changed circumstances, admittedly under the impetus of courageous, or adventurous, judges like Lord Denning around the middle of the 20th century. I’m not sure that America could have responded to, say, something like the IRA bombings in England without getting tangled up in civil liberties challenges.

Australia is, so far as personal freedoms are concerned, not much different to Britain, but both disadvantaged by yet happily free of the EU constraints imposed from outside.