Polar, have you also read the first article scan? 
I know it is just an opinion. But not a russian one… which makes it much more valueable, right? 
Sorry Egorka i click Quote not this post what I want
My ansewer was for Chevan post
Originally Posted by Polar
Yes Russian Wikipedia always give as good info but always missing somthingYou right as always dear Polar.
The full picture we could to see only reading the other wiki.
But tell me please firstly : what was before- egg or the chicken?
I mean what was before - ukrainian nationalist-terrorists of polish repressions of ukrains?
BTW do you know in the soviets also called the ukrains nationalists as the terrorists.
It was later after WW2 when the “forest brothers” from western Ukraine got the partisan war with the NKVD.
And do you know what’s was most RIDICULOUS? In the west they were called as the “fighters for independent Ukraine” against the soviet invaiders. Ha Ha
Don’t you think is it strange the English WIKI use the “Soviet language” to the Ukrains nationalists?
and this article “POLAND’S TROUBLED COURSE IN RE-ESTABLISHING AN OLD NATION
Frequent Clashes With Minorities Have Marked Her History Since Rebirth
New York Times, 13-March-1932.”
Lexa is it your favorite method to innerrapt the discussion and quielty substitute the concepts ?
What relation has the decision of Politburoo which pitfully tryed to stop the desintegration of USSR and stop the beginning the bloody civil war in Kavkaz( this is obligation of any govenment) to the personal desicion of Gorbachev to say the “true” the poles?
Yeltsyn was independent enough from western opinion to start war in Chechnya, but at the same time, he was so deeply dependent that even didn’t try to argue about the crime that has nothing common with our country.
And who did you say the West forbid him to began the war in Checnij in 1994?
The little blody war in the territory of Russia was very preferably for the some rusofobs (like Zbignev Bzeginskij ) in here.
If the Yeltsyn had let the Army to do its work the Chechen terorism has finished in the 1995 already. But he with his “oligarhy family” prefered to be listen the “western friends” and ordered the army to stop. In fact the army command was constantly under political pressure from the Moscow.
This coused the continie of the war and much more victims among civil population.
And finally Putin, true patriot of Russia and criticist of the West (and not big fun of Poland ), is keeping silence about this terrible falsification, while he is able to move away this shameful stain of Russia’s reputation.
firstly what relation Putin has to the conclusion the polish-russian comission which still did not finished its investigation work?
Secondary the USSR simpy denied the participation in the Katyn - did it help the soviet reputation in the world?
The problem of Katyn IMO is the too much politization. Instead of hard work we just see the constant political claims which every side used in its interests.Nothing more.
Particularly interesting is why the West needed that all?
And why did the west was needed in the falsification of the presents of Mass destruction wearpon in Iraq? I don’t know. May be you know the answer.
Oh its something news Polar. Nice associations the Katyn with Holocaust.
Very originally.
BTW do yourself know the jews nevel let to compare any mass killing with holocoust. This is only for jews.
If Gorbachev want have support from Poland he could remove Red Army soldiers from Poland. But he didn’t do it.
Oh the Red Army still in Poland i din’t know it.
Yes you have right document could be simply falsify but not this what was finded in grave.
The documents which were finded by Nazy in 1943?
Doesn’t matter nowadays.
But the reason why the terrorist killed the civilians we still don’t listen.
BTW Do you wish to say the soviet suppression of UPA was ligitime becouse the ukrains terrorists killed the soviet sitizents?
BTW did this was “mass represion”
for grops who have 4.800.000 peples?
Well i don’t know was it the “mass”. But burning the 500 houses don’t look like the humatitarian action;)
Very originally.
BTW do yourself know the jews nevel let to compare any mass killing with holocoust. This is only for jews. [/QUOTE]
I never compare holocoust and Katyn I only compare yours “revelations” about Katyn with “revelations” neo-nazi who questioned holocaust.
Chevan did you know when and who remove Red Army soldiers from Poland? If not try find some info and after that write.
No, about documents find in grave in Miednoje and Charkov in 1991, 1994 and 1995 when grave was opened. In 1943 German find only about 4000 bodies.
And who did you say the the everybody questioned in 6 millions of victims ( not in the holocoust at all) are the neo-nazy?
Chevan did you know when and who remove Red Army soldiers from Poland? If not try find some info and after that write.
Really it was “Solidarity” who fought against soviet tanks;)?
If seriouse dou you know when WAS DEVELOPED AND SIGNED the plans of withdrawing the soviet troops from the Eastern Europe?
My notice:
IT was far untill the Yeltsyn has come to the power in the end of 1992
No, about documents find in grave in Miednoje and Charkov in 1991, 1994 and 1995 when grave was opened. In 1943 German find only about 4000 bodies.
And how many was founded the bodies in Mednoj and Charcov and what evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners ?
Between April 3 and may 19, 1940, 6,311 Polish officers and policeman from the Ostashkov POW camp were brought to the area of Mednoye and subsequently shot to death behind the village of Yamka.
This was confirmed by Dmitrij S. Tokariew chief NKVD in Kalinin (now Tver) during russian invistgation.
In 1991 was opened only one grave with 243 bodies polish policeman ( they have parts polish uniform). Documents , personall stuff, and 2 diaries in good condition are evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners. In 1994-95 was opened all 23 mass grave but only 4 was completled explored.
In 1991 was identification personality 13 persons. All person was on NKVD transports list ( this documents was give by Gorbachev to Jaryzelskij in 1990)
BTW Did Miednoje was under Germany occupation during war?
Between 1994-1996 in Charkow was fouded 75 grave peoples what was mourdered by Stalin regime. In 15 (biggest) graves was fouded 4200 bodies with polish uniforms, personall stuff and elements polish equiptment. In 60 others graves are 2800 citizen of Charkov mourdered 1937-1938.
I think yes.
I heard that nowdays citizen Ukrain are divde in theirs opinion about UPA.
[LEFT]I could be wrong but i think this topic is for the Katyn massacre aniversary, so…What is the purpose of this scans, ? justifing is some way the killings?
In any case those are off-topic, please no more.
[/LEFT]
Stop here !
Where did you read the testimonies of Tokariew?
In 1991 was opened only one grave with 243 bodies polish policeman ( they have parts polish uniform). Documents , personall stuff, and 2 diaries in good condition are evidences this graves were related to the polish prisoners. In 1994-95 was opened all 23 mass grave but only 4 was completled explored.
Firstly this is not right to conclude the 243 bodies means the killing of another 6 000 prisoners.
Sec how could you prove the single witness Tokarev was really independent . Was he more independent that the Germans generals who “confirmed” in the 1945 for the Stalin the Katyn was made by the Nazy.
BTW you did not say the not all of the 243 bodies were dressed in polish uniform.
Some of the bodies ( about 60) were the remains of soviet citizents which were founded at that same grave. It was not the place of execution only poles.
In 1991 was identification personality 13 persons. All person was on NKVD transports list ( this documents was give by Gorbachev to Jaryzelskij in 1990)
And how could you explane the fact the some of the people from this list were found alive in post war Poland?
BTW Did Miednoje was under Germany occupation during war?
The frontline brought via the Mednoe for some days. The Maednoe was in the GErmans hand for two days.
Between 1994-1996 in Charkow was fouded 75 grave peoples what was mourdered by Stalin regime. In 15 (biggest) graves was fouded 4200 bodies with polish uniforms, personall stuff and elements polish equiptment. In 60 others graves are 2800 citizen of Charkov mourdered 1937-1938.
Again what the was the method the exact determination the NKVD work?
Mabe the Germans could not to shoot 4200 mens in on sity?
Moreover why they found the the polis garves in 1943 in the deep forest but was not capable to find simular mass graves near the Charcov one of the biggest sity of Ukraine.
May becouse its was the ITS work.
And please what providence the 2800 citizents which were murdered in the 1937-38?
Maybe each of them had the newspaper or letter to the home with date;)
Sure NKVD killed a lot of people by i/m simply could not believe they let the prisoners to save the letters and newspaper in its pockets.
Cheers.
Ok, Chevan, let’s fix the concepts. What is you point? Do you deny the responsibility of NKVD for Katyn crime?
So that was personal decision of Gorbachov? And where Politburo was, and why they didn’t try to stop it? What about General Prosecutor of USSR - did he know the truth? The General Prosecutution investigators, they were just West-loving traitors?
The West couldn’t forbid something to Yeltsyn, but it steadily pressed on him with this question as well as with many others. Yelstyn often acted as emotional and unbalanced man, and he never was 100% obedient to the West. So I don’t understand why he was so quiet and submissive particularly in Katyn case that he didn’t even try to contest the responsibility of USSR.
The Russian Military Prosecution has finished the investigation and it did come to conclusion that it was NKVD who killed the Poles. If they did it under pressure of Yeltsyn, then Putin could let them to disclose the truth. Why he didn’t?
So Putin cares so much about Russia’s reputation in the West’s opinion that he is keeping silence about the falsification, and he forces all other people in his environment and in General Prosecution to do the same. It’s strange because recently in Munich he said a lot of unleasant things right in the face of the Westerners. Why should he be silent about the falsifications of Katyn documents? It wouldn’t be “simple denial”. If you are right, then Russia has the evidence of falsifications, alive witnesses etc. If so, today is the right moment to justify ourselves. Nobody can press on Russia, niether evil uncle Zbig nor smbdy else And RF has much more credibility of the West than USSR had.
I agree. The problem is badly politized, mostly by Poland. It should be discussed by historians, not politicians. Using this question for loud antirussian political declarations is disgusting.
Well, I have an idea: may be they wanted to attack Iraq?
But what about Katyn? Why the West needs German guilt for Katyn being ascribed to Russia?
Well I don’t speak in russian and I found info about his testimonies in few polish books and few website and of cours in the greats source infa as russian wikipedia (I use internet translator)
(…)Расследование велось до конца 2004 г.; в ходе его были допрошены свидетели и участники расправ над поляками. В частности, был допрошен один из участников расстрелов в Твери Д. С. Токарев. Из его показаний объяснилась такая деталь, как наличие немецких пуль. Он рассказал, что руководивший расстрелами некто Блохин «привез с собой целый чемодан немецких „вальтеров“, ибо советские наганы не выдерживали — перегревались». .(…)
Could you tranlate it Chevan ?
Yes but in 1991 was first exhumation in 1994 and 1995 was next. The effect this exhumation confirmed testimonies of Tokariew
I don’t must nothing prov. This was doing in 2005 by Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov who end Russian invistigation.
BTW Tokarev wasn’t single witness. He was highest member of NKVD confusion on this massacre who was still alive in 1991.
When I look on case Lev Kamenev, Grigory Zinoviev, Tukhachevsky and others victims Stalin my answer is Yes Tokarev was really independent.
Yes this place was use by NKVD earlier
BTW nowdays Russian gov very often describe Poles who was mourdered during ww2 as Soviet citizens.
Did you can prove it and give me theirs names?
Oh German in 2 days shoot 6000 peoples, transfer to wood, digin grave for bodies , set tree and grass. Doing all this in winter and front area, and Red Army who libereted this area two days later don’t find anything by 50 years?
First this was in Pyatikhatki near Kharkow
or mayby they don’t sreach them
BTW
from Wikipedia
During World War II Kharkiv was the site of several military engagements. The city was captured by Nazi Germany and its military allies, recaptured by the Red Army, captured again twice by the Nazis and then finally liberated on August 23, 1943. Seventy percent of the city was destroyed and tens of thousands of the inhabitants were killed.
Katyn was I think longer on german occupation then Kharkiv. Did was as many times libereted?
BTW the first grave was fouded in Katyn in 1942 by polish slave worker. They fouded 2 bodies with polish uniform. They have info form local russian peoples. This was reported to germans but in this time they wasn’t intrested this fact. But after fall Stalingrad they interested it and use in propaganda.
And please what providence the 2800 citizents which were murdered in the 1937-38?
Maybe each of them had the newspaper or letter to the home with date;)
Sure NKVD killed a lot of people by i/m simply could not believe they let the prisoners to save the letters and newspaper in its pockets…
Well mayby you shold ask yours gov and gov Ukrain because this was invistigation doing by it.
Transleting:
In particular, one of participants of executions in Tver D.S.Tokarev has been interrogated. From his(its) indications such detail, as presence of German bullets was explained. It(he) has told, that somebody supervised executions Блохин « has brought with itself the whole suitcase German “вальтеров” for the Soviet revolvers did not maintain - overheated.
The matter is that from the very first publication about Tokarev’s indications of journalist L.Elin in " The Moscow news " in 1990 has gone to walk versia, that German pistols have brought to Kalinin ostensibly because the Soviet revolvers overheated and failed.
However in the text of interrogation published in the Polish language in Poland, this reason speaks Tokarev completely differently (return translation with Polish on Russian):
“…Яблоков: Дмитрий Степанович, какое оружие имели Вы и другие офицеры НКВД ?
Токарев: Штатное оружие - ТТ. Я, правда, имел маленький карманный немецкий пистолет Вальтер. Но когда приехали Блохин, Синегубов и Кривенко, они привезли с собой целый чемодан пистолетов. Оказывается, пистолеты быстро изнашиваются. Поэтому они привезли их целый чемодан”…
on English:
"… Yablokov: Dmitry Stepanovich, what weapon you had and other officers of People’s Commissariat of Internal Affairs?
Tokarev: the Regular weapon - TT. I, the truth, had a small pocket German pistol Walter. But when have arrived Блохин, Синегубов and Кривенко, they have brought with themselves the whole suitcase of pistols. It appears, pistols quickly wear out. Therefore they have brought their whole suitcase "…
That is Tokarev in 1990 has declared opposite to a volume, that now suck round in Кatyn’s discussions!
Guys, i feel duty to introduce for you the our new member Rus-Loh.
He is one of the most informed men in this theme in Russia.
His knowlege about this topic is rather deeper then the common views.
So i think he should be pretty usefull for uour discussion.
You are welcomeon a board ,mate.
Take the care about our members and enjoy the the discussion with our foreign friends.
Cheers.
I’ve never told the NKVD was not able to kill the poles.
But there is TOO much controversal things in the “Goebbels version”.
I think the truth is somewhere between
So that was personal decision of Gorbachov? And where Politburo was, and why they didn’t try to stop it? What about General Prosecutor of USSR - did he know the truth? The General Prosecutution investigators, they were just West-loving traitors?
Why politburoo did stope him i don’t exactly know. But he was the General Secretary of USSR at that time it was not easy to stop. Look to the president of USA today - the whole Congress ( and most of americans already ) voted agains war in Iraq but nothing could do to stop the Bush
And the Gernaral Procesutor of USSR was a men of Gorbachev - is it tells you something about?
The West couldn’t forbid something to Yeltsyn, but it steadily pressed on him with this question as well as with many others. Yelstyn often acted as emotional and unbalanced man, and he never was 100% obedient to the West. So I don’t understand why he was so quiet and submissive particularly in Katyn case that he didn’t even try to contest the responsibility of USSR.
Firstly .
The west feel good enough when “not 100% obedient” to the West alchoholic Yeltsin ordered to shot the Russian Parliament in october 1993. Do you remember how did the West called the Yeltsys after this barbarian action - Right, the “first russian democrat”
And honestly speakinf during this period Yeltsys had a much more importaint problem than to contest the responsibility of USSR.
Besides i’ve already told you why the Yeltsys indisputable supported the Goebbels version- he simply try to bury the Communist party. He simply had no a any wishes to dispute this themev.
The Russian Military Prosecution has finished the investigation and it did come to conclusion that it was NKVD who killed the Poles. If they did it under pressure of Yeltsyn, then Putin could let them to disclose the truth. Why he didn’t?
This so called “investigation” has a lot of lacks and sensless things as i told.
And Putin simply is not cable to disclose the truth. What relation Putin has to the “investigation” which was began by the Gorbachev?
The Katyn need the new more detailed research - this is obviously IMO.
So Putin cares so much about Russia’s reputation in the West’s opinion that he is keeping silence about the falsification, and he forces all other people in his environment and in General Prosecution to do the same. It’s strange because recently in Munich he said a lot of unleasant things right in the face of the Westerners. Why should he be silent about the falsifications of Katyn documents? It wouldn’t be “simple denial”. If you are right, then Russia has the evidence of falsifications, alive witnesses etc. If so, today is the right moment to justify ourselves. Nobody can press on Russia, niether evil uncle Zbig nor smbdy else
How much i have to repeat to you - Putin does not authorised to make the conclusions in that specific theme.
The true is not obvious, we need the investigation.The only parliamen could to organize it.
I agree. The problem is badly politized, mostly by Poland. It should be discussed by historians, not politicians. Using this question for loud antirussian political declarations is disgusting.
that’s right
Well, I have an idea: may be they wanted to attack Iraq?
But what about Katyn? Why the West needs German guilt for Katyn being ascribed to Russia?
And mabe the west simply wanted to destroy its enemy coalition ( soviet block) during the Cold War
i/e/ they had the simular aims like the Nazi in 1943???
Cheers.
Well it was done by the Rus-loh.
Yes but in 1991 was first exhumation in 1994 and 1995 was next. The effect this exhumation confirmed testimonies of Tokariew
i’ve asked you about Tokarevs testimonies becouse i/m sure you did not read this.
So i wish to tell you that his “tells” could be demolished by the elementary criticism.
Look for instane at the controvercials of his tells in the post of Rus-loh.
I don’t must nothing prov. This was doing in 2005 by Russian Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov who end Russian invistigation.
Oh Really. Is it investigation has finished already?
Am i something passed
BTW Tokarev wasn’t single witness. He was highest member of NKVD confusion on this massacre who was still alive in 1991.
[/quote]
Another so called witness are also sounds very conrtoversative.
Just try to read it personaly.
When I look on case Lev Kamenev, Grigory Zinoviev, Tukhachevsky and others victims Stalin my answer is Yes Tokarev was really independent.
Oh common Polar
Were the Kamenev-Roselfeld and Zinoviev -Appelbaum the “victims”(You forget the "
innocent" Trozkij-Bernshtain)/
Don’t forget those victims had its own hands full in blood.
And Tukhachevskiy was idiot who headed the sensless attack to the Warsaw in 1921.
Yes this place was use by NKVD earlier
BTW nowdays Russian gov very often describe Poles who was mourdered during ww2 as Soviet citizens.
What are the providences it was place of NKVD execution but not the simple common grave of perished soldiers?
Did you can prove it and give me theirs names?
OK give me just a few time.
Oh German in 2 days shoot 6000 peoples, transfer to wood, digin grave for bodies , set tree and grass. Doing all this in winter and front area, and Red Army who libereted this area two days later don’t find anything by 50 years?
What are 6000 peoples?
Where get you idea of it. There were found only 270 bodies and only small part ( about 30-40) of them had a bullet hole in skills. Don’t look like mass execution in Katyn right?
First this was in Pyatikhatki near Kharkow
or mayby they don’t sreach them
BTW
And what was found in Pyatikhatki. Could you get a detai picture of it?
Katyn was I think longer on german occupation then Kharkiv. Did was as many times libereted?
BTW the first grave was fouded in Katyn in 1942 by polish slave worker. They fouded 2 bodies with polish uniform. They have info form local russian peoples. This was reported to germans but in this time they wasn’t intrested this fact. But after fall Stalingrad they interested it and use in propaganda.
Sorry Polar but this proves …nothing. Are you sure those two polish bodies were killed in 1940? I am not. And there is nothing special the germans weren’t interested of it fact if themself did it. Just a interesting how this polish slave could surrive after that.
Well mayby you shold ask yours gov and gov Ukrain because this was invistigation doing by it.
Well i think you right in here.
I am actually have a coupe of question at my gov and i have to demand the new detailed investigation with participation of polish delegation.
I hope it will be much better that the pitfull political claims for each other.
Cheers.
I don’t forgot Trozkij becuse he don’t have “trial” in USRR. Did you think that this gentlemans was doing everything what they confession
during “trial” ? Did they was killed because had blood in hands or reason was diffrent?
Chevan did you read what I write?
In 1991 in Miednoje was opened one grave with 243 bodies. Polish source give me info that 169 bodies have bullet hole in head.
The grave in Miednoje is 25. In 1994 and 1995 all graves was opened and four was have full exhumation.
Now I don’t have photos from exhumation Pyatikhatki.
Yes, he’s one of the most active Katyn deniers in the Russian internet :rolleyes:
Well mates I’m unable to participate in this senseless dispute anymore. I can only say sorry to Polish participants for what this thread has became.
Well, thanks Lexa!
I believe that all of polish members do appreciate your statement.
Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski