Katyn 67th anniversary

Site Issues 2007 Archive Room
#41

Lexa and other honoroable polish members!

From your comments (especially by Lexa) I conclude that you really know most, if not everything, about the Katyn case. You know the arguments of your opponents, right? So could I kindly ask you to comparativaly present the facts of BOTH sides, leaving emotions behind.

I ask as some one who does not have anough specific knowledge about the Katyn, only general info.

Lexa, maybe it is senseless for you, because you know it all about. But I don’t, so it is fulll of sense to me!

#42

Thanks for a compliment, but it is not a truth .
My knowledge in “Katyn affair” are more smaller, than at Sergey Strygin or Vyacheslav Shved.
If I from time to time successfully deride supporters of the poland-nazi version it occurs not so much from my awareness, how many from their illiteracy.

#43

It is a lie.
In 1991 in Mednoe have been found not 243 bodies, but FRAGMENTS of 243 bodies. Including skulls… 226 (!)
About it Pole Peshkovsky directly writes:

“Это последний обнаруженный в Медное череп - 226-й”
[З. Пешковский. “…И увидел ямы смерти” Харьков-Медное-Катынь." Перевод С. Родевича. Польша, Русское издательство “Катажина Фли-эгер”, 1995, с. 82]

Transleting:

" It is last found out in Mednoe a skull - 226-th "
[Z.Peshkovsky. "… Also has seen holes of death " Kharkov - Медное-Катынь ". S.Rodevicha’s translation. Poland, Russian publishing house " Катаpжина Флиэгер ", 1995, p. 82]

Calculation of bodies then was conducted not on skulls, but on right foot bones. That it was very convenient for Poles:)
Except for that these bones not from one hole have been dug out. And from 35:

В Медном работы проводились 15-25 августа 1991 г. на площади пятиугольника 37х108х36х120х120 м. Было сделано 30 раскопов и 5 дополнительных зондажей. Обнаружены останки не менее чем 243 поляков.
[И.С.Яжборовская, А.Ю.Яблоков,В.С.Парсаданова. Катынский синдром в советско-польских отношениях. М.РОСПЭН, 2001, с.482]

Transleting:

In Mednoe works were carried out(spent) on August, 15-25, 1991 on the area of a pentagon 37х108х36х120х120 by m. It has been made 30 holes and 5 additional soundings. Remains not less than 243 Poles are found out.
[I.S.Jazhborovskaja, A.J.Jablokov, V.S.Parsadanova. Катынский a syndrome in the советско-Polish relations. М.РОСПЭН, 2001, p. 482]

Result - in opinion of supporters of the Poland-German version ALL Poles have been killed by a shot to head in a cellar of building Kalinin’s NKVD and then buried in Mednoe.
But at excavation of 1991 appeared, that from 226 skulls bullet holes have only 169. And bullets have been found in general only in 5 (!) turtles.
From what follows, that 57 found remains completely precisely do not belong to Poles.

#44

Rus-Loh,

I assume that “poland-nazi version” is just a version which is not consistent with “soviet propaganda version”, right?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#45

It I shall tell.
The matter is that German sleeves which have been found in Mountains Kozjih as by Germans in 1943, and in 1994-95 by Poles have been made of STEEL.
And such cartridges with steel sleeves have started to be made in Germany only in the beginning of 1941.
Employees of NKVD in April, 1940 COULD NOT USE such cartridges.
Conclusion - Poles in Mountains Kozjih have been killed by nazis.

#46

Explain the term " soviet propaganda version ", please:-)

#47

According to this version, all polish officers, policemen, priests, doctors and others were murdered by Germans. We can also add all other attempts to deny of soviet guilt and refusal to recognize the Katyn Massacre as an act of genocide.

#48

It is not “version” - it is truth.

#49

It is from other opera :mrgreen:

#50

Does not matter nowadays what for were they killed. In fact they all were a murders and deserved its fate.
The Trozkij was personaly guilted in the beginning of Big Red therror in 1918 when he ordered to kill 10 000 native russians. So i have no illusions about those bastards who were the “victims”.

Chevan did you read what I write?
In 1991 in Miednoje was opened one grave with 243 bodies. Polish source give me info that 169 bodies have bullet hole in head.

The grave in Miednoje is 25. In 1994 and 1995 all graves was opened and four was have full exhumation.

Polar i’ve read it enough attentively, but where did you get idea in 1994-95 in Mednoe was founded the rest 5 800 of polish bodies?
To the heppines i hope our new russian friend in here could help us in the explanation the strange finds in Mednoe.

Now I don’t have photos from exhumation Pyatikhatki.

Well i will try to search more infore

Cheers.

#51

Oh Gosh!
Here we go again!!!

Honestly speaking, I’m bored with even reading the posts written by such “historians” :slight_smile:

Have a nice day Rus-Loh.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#52

Kovalski!

May I kindly ask you to answer to my post #41? Please!

.

#53

Well mate i think to say the NKVD could not to kill the some of polish prisoners is wrong IMO.
Certainly there is no any doubts thet NKVD killed some of a poles like as they killed a lot of russian and others.
But to undisputible declaration the mass killing in KATYN it was the NKVD work is mistake. Becouse there a lot of problems in so called “Gorbachev investigation” in 1991.
Today we see a lot of mistakes and simply bulshit in so called “testimonies” the peoples like Tokarev.
That’s what he said in the one case

In particular, one of participants of executions in Tver D.S.Tokarev has been interrogated. From his indications such detail, as presence of German bullets was explained. It(he) has told, that somebody supervised executions Блохин has brought with itself the whole suitcase German “Walters” for the Soviet Nagan-revolvers did not maintain - overheated

… and in the other case

Tokarev: the Regular weapon - pisol TT. I the truth, had a small pocket German pistol Walter. But when have arrived Blohin, Sinegubov and Krivenko, they have brought with themselves the whole suitcase of pistols. It appears, pistols quickly wear out. Therefore they have brought their whole suitcase "…

i.e he told the one time it was the the regular soviet pistol TT, in the other case he called it as Nagan revolver ;)) !!!
Don’t need to repeat you guys NO ONE independent court in the world do not take the “testimony” of former NKVD agent who could not discern the Nagan from TT :wink:
This is just a little contraduction of the testimonies which only proved for us - we need the new detail investigation.

Cheers.

#54

I will not be so sure for that i just know in this sad story there are a lot of “dark spots”.
So to tell the former “soviet version” was a true - this is equally the affirmation the “Goebbels version” is the true.
The true is somwhere between IMO;)

Cheers.

#55

Dear Egorka,

what kind of answer do you expect from me?
I’m unable to scan hundreds of pages of documents, books, maps, etc. and post it for you.
With all respect, but I’m not going to prove something that was proved long time ago. Nobody in the world has a problem with acceptation of historical facts, apart from group of “historical fanatics”.
If it is too hard for them to deal with their own history, that’s a pity, but it is not my problem.
It’s nothing personal Egorka. I ain’t no fanatic. I’m aware of dark facts in Poland and I don’t deny them, but I just don’t feel obliged to continue discussion over obvious facts.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#56

Look on this topic on another forum
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36517

#57

Polar, an interesting link to another forum. Some interesting facts mentioned there… unfortunately (or as better say as always) spiced with plenty of emptional epithetы and presented a bit one sided from Polish point of view.

But it is OK. I understand! I really do.

#58

Typical reaction of the democrat…
To such people is not interesting that

  1. In turtles of Poles killed in Mountains Kozjih there were bullets of typically German calibres
  2. On hands of Poles killed in mountains Kozjih there were German cords
  3. In tombs of Poles in Mountains Kozjih were steel (that is made not earlier than 1941) sleeves with German marks

To such all is clear beforehand…

#59

I too think, that in 1939-1940 a quantity of Poles could be executed in the USSR.
Was for what - in 1920 Poles have made set of war crimes concerning the peace population of Ukraine, Belarus and Soviet captured.

#60

Well and that?
Internets - references and I can present set. About cooperation of nazis not only with NKVD, but also with UFO.
Here only DOCUMENTS find I can not.
As well as authors of these sites.