Katyn 67th anniversary

[Rus-Loh]

@Egorka

Rus-Loh,
What about the document number? I have read that the number does not fit to the time the document dates to.
Has it been proved? How?Thanks!

Probably, you mean " note of Beria from " _ " March, 1940 № 794/Б ":

Experts of a Katyn’s question (for example - N.S.Lebedeva) approves, that this document has been written on March, 3 1940.
She asserts it because in “note of Beria” figures about number of the captured Poles, conterminous are resulted by that is in the other document - precisely dated (and original) “note Soprunenko” from March, 3 1940:

На записке наркома внутренних дел СССР быт проставлены месяц, год, но отсутствовало число. Она была написана на бланке НКВД СССР и имела регистрационный номер. Именно этот номер помог нам датировать с точностью до одного дня - 3 марта - этот документ. См. подробнее: N. Lebidieva. Process podeimovania decyzji katynskiej// Europa nie prowincjonalna. Warszaw-Londyn, 1999. 8. 1155-1174
( Катынь. Март 1940 — сентябрь 2000. Расстрел. Судьбы живых. Эхо Катыни. (Документы). М., “Весь мир”, 2001, с.44 )

Transleting:

On a note of narkom of internal affairs of the USSR were named month, year, but there was no number of day. It has been written on the form of NKVD of the USSR and had registration number. This number has helped us to date to within one day - on March, 3 - this document. See more in detail: N. Lebidieva. Process podeimovania decyzji katynskiej // Europa nie prowincjonalna. Warszaw-Londyn, 1999.8.1155-1174
(Katyn. March 1940 - September 2000. Execution. Destinies alive. Echo of Katyn. (Documents). М., “ All world ”, 2001, with 44)

But! N.S.Lebedeva did not consider that on March, 2, 1940 L.Beria has sent Stalin a note about the Chinese affairs behind number 810/Б.
This note has been published the last year in the collection of documents
" Lubyanka, Stalin and NKVD-NKGB-GUKR “Smersh” 1939-March 1946 " (Publishing house MFD, Moscow, 2006).( “Лубянка, Сталин и НКВД-НКГБ-ГУКР “Смерш” 1939-март 1946” (Издательство МФД, Москва, 2006) .)

This implies, that the document with smaller (794/Б) number has been signed BEFORE March, 2, 1940 - either on March, 1 or on February, 29, 1940.
In the original document signed by Beria on March, 1, 1940 figures from note of Soprunenkoо from March, 3, 1940 in any way could not appear.
Conclusion - " note of Beria from " _ " March, 1940 " - the latest falsification.

[Chevan]

@Panzerknacker

The Deustche Waffen und Munitionen fabriken made ammo for around the world, the Argentine army used DWM bullets in his rifles and pistols so…:rolleyes:

So you right , nobody in here are doubting the peoples in there were killed by the GEGMAN pistols with GERMAN DWM-shells.

The difference is really minimal, as I said you only can discover that with a extremely precise measuring device and a strong knowledge about small arms and ammo. Not to mention that the copper jacketed bullet would be slightly diformated after go trough the human skull.

Mate you simply wondering me;)
Who do tell about measuring - do you see the bottom of shells - 479A.
I think it was not the problem for the experts to learn that this mean caliber of 7.65mm according DMW classification.

@Panzerknacker

If you still think that there is place for some revisionism do it …at your own risk to fall in ridiculous.
…
The difference is really minimal…

[quote=Rus-loh]It is nonsense.
The patron 7,65 “Browning” and patron 7,62 “Mauser” have not only different calibre, but also the different form, different сapacity of a charge and different length.
Can look here:

http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml - patron “Browning” 7,65x17 mm. for “Walter”
http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml - patron “Mauser” 7,62X25 mm. for TT

[/QUOTE]

So mate do you see who of us both becomes the ridiculously now
Just without offensives…OK;)

[Rus-Loh]

By the way - here still a photo from German materials:

Question - whence in the German signature to the document date on October, 20, 1941 (!!!) has undertaken ?

[Chevan]

@Rus-Loh

From five sleeves steel (because are drawn by a magnet) are the third (it from above is covered with a thin layer of copper) and the fourth on which there is marks DWM 749A 43 (it is covered green is delicious).
The information on it is received privately from the collector to whom these sleeves now belong.

And do yo have any evidences of that some of the shells were drawn by the magnet?
If yes so why this fact ignores the polish side?

[Rus-Loh]

I shall add still, that it not unique absurd in this signature.
First - in the document there is no indication on a military rank of it Kozlinsky.
Second - in the document it is not spoken, that at Kozlinsky there is WIFE Frantsiska Rozali.
There it is specified, that Франциск is father оf Kozlinsky, and Розали is his mother (!!!)
Thirdly - this document is given Kozlinsky for receipt in the Warsaw university (that is not later than summer 1939), but date of delivery on it is not present.

It turns out, that certain young man Kozlinsky was going to act in 1939 in the Warsaw university, but war here began - and him have mobilized… At once in a rank of the captain (!!!).
Such prompt military career is completely improbable.
Therefore I think, that all is much easier - nazis in 1943 in a pocket of the certain corpse (in a uniform of the captain) have put the document addressed to certain Kozlinsky which have shot on October, 20, 1941.

[Chevan]

@Rus-Loh

By the way - here still a photo from German materials:

Question - whence in the German signature to the document date on October, 20, 1941 (!!!) has undertaken ?

is this document on Polish language?
Could we get the translation somewhere?

[Rus-Loh]

@Chevan

And do yo have any evidences of that some of the shells were drawn by the magnet?
If yes so why this fact ignores the polish side?

The matter is that these sleeves are taken not from tombs in Kozji Gory. It is simple cartridges of times of the Second World war - and these photos have appeared in connection with the common discussion of a question on marks on German sleeves.
And the Polish side IN GENERAL speaks nothing about a material of which the sleeves found in Kozji Gory in 1994-95 have been made.
It at that all “examination” - a magnet to a sleeve to bring.

[Rus-Loh]

@Chevan

is this document on Polish language?

Yes, certainly…

@Chevan

Could we get the translation somewhere?

Let better sir Kowalski will translate of it for us.

[Chevan]

@Rus-Loh

The matter is that these sleeves are taken not from tombs in Kozji Gory. It is simple cartridges of times of the Second World war - and these photos have appeared in connection with the common discussion of a question on marks on German sleeves.
And the Polish party(side) IN GENERAL speaks nothing about a material of which the sleeves found in Mountains Kozjih in 1994-95 have been made.
It at that all “examination” - a magnet to a sleeve to bring.

It seems i misundestood you.
So where were found the german steel shells?
If the poles told nothing about materials of german shells founded in Mountains Kozjih this does not mean the shells have been made from a steel.

[Rus-Loh]

@Chevan

It seems i misundestood you.
So where were found the german steel shells?
If the poles told nothing about materials of german shells founded in Mountains Kozjih this does not mean the shells have been made from a steel.

Poles - really have told nothing.
But on our planet live not only Poles.
And Poles should communicate with them sometimes…
And even to employ as workers at carrying out of excavation in Kozji Gory.
To one of such workers also has occurred to bring on excavation a magnet.
As him called I, certainly, shall not tell. Let it will be a surprise for Poles by consideration of their claim to Russia in Strasbourg.

[Panzerknacker]

Originally Posted by Rus-loh
[i]It is nonsense.
The patron 7,65 “Browning” and patron 7,62 “Mauser” have not only different calibre, but also the different form, different сapacity of a charge and different length.
Can look here:

http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml - patron “Browning” 7,65x17 mm. for “Walter”
http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml - patron “Mauser” 7,62X25 mm. for TT[/i]

My dear Rus-Loh, if you read my post carefully you ll see I am talking about the bullets wich were extracted from the victim s heads, not the cartrigde casings. I am pretty familiar with handguns and other cartrigdes as you migh note in the German military section with topics like “German weapons in action” “Antitank rifles” “Luftwaffe cannons and Machineguns” etc,etc.

So mate do you see who of us both becomes the ridiculously now
Just without offensives…OK

I am not offended because the prize of “ridiculousness” and “futility revisionism” is already awarded to you, Egorka and Rus-Loh.

Two russians presidents, Gorbachov and Yeltsin had already admitted the soviet responsabilities for the officers killing. That is enough to me.

And you are forcing me take some drastic measures:

A)-I will automatically delete any post trying to deny, justificate and/or put in doubt the russian responsabilities in the massacre.

B)-The author of that will receive 2 infraction post.

C)-This topic is for the conmemoration of the polish officers and the discussion of what might be caused his execution by the NKVD, avoid any other off-topic comment .

D) Rus-loh, Egorka and Chevan :feel free to post your condolences/simpathys/ repent toughs to the victims relatives.

[Chevan]

@Panzerknacker

My dear Rus-Loh, if you read my post carefully you ll see I am talking about the bullets wich were extracted from the victim s heads, not the cartrigde casings. I am pretty familiar with handguns and other cartrigdes as you migh note in the German military section with topics like “German weapons in action” “Antitank rifles” “Luftwaffe cannons and Machineguns” etc,etc.

Sure Panzerknacker you are pretty familiar with germans cartriges but why do need to tell that there is no difference on shell of Brauning and Mauser;)

I am not offended because the prize of “ridiculousness” and “futility revisionism” is already awarded to you, Egorka and Rus-Loh.

Awarded by whom?
You…?
And what realtion has the Egorka at the “revisionism” - he simply asked one neutral question.
I think our polish friends could find interesting the some open question in here.

Two russians presidents, Gorbachov and Yeltsin had already admitted the soviet responsabilities for the officers killing. That is enough to me.

But they both don’t open the some secret archives about it. So the polish side still has a some of questions.

-I will automatically delete any post trying to deny, justificate and/or put in doubt the russian responsabilities in the massacre

-The author of that will receive 2 infraction post

But this is pure political censorship
Firstly i/m not deny/justify the responsibility of NKVD at the poles. But we have a couple contruduction point in theme about Katyn. This thread just could make it more clear.
.

-This topic is for the conmemoration of the polish officers and the discussion of what might be caused his execution by the NKVD, avoid any other off-topic comment

Rus-loh, Egorka and Chevan :feel free to post your condolences/simpathys/ repent toughs to the victims relatives

Well here i/m agree with you.
Certainly this thread about tragedy and i have to express my personal condolences for the relatives of killed peoples.
My symphatyies at poles i 've expressed at my previous posts.

[Rus-Loh]

@Panzerknacker

Two russians presidents, Gorbachov and Yeltsin had already admitted the soviet responsabilities for the officers killing. That is enough to me.
And you are forcing me take some drastic measures:
A)-I will automatically delete any post trying to deny, justificate and/or put in doubt the russian responsabilities in the massacre.

It is very similar to ours " the democratic approach " - to silence the opponent if there are no arguments.
If such measures are already promised, I do not see sense to continue discussion HERE.
Wishing it can continue to be registered at my personal forum or at a forum of a site katyn.ru
So long.

[Panzerknacker]

It is very similar to ours " the democratic approach " - to silence the opponent if there are no arguments.
If such measures are already promised, I do not see sense to continue discussion HERE.
Wishing it can continue to be registered at my personal forum or at a forum of a site katyn.ru
So long.

That seems a very, very good idea Rus-loh, take your revisionist discussion to other site.

By the way I aprecciate the gesture of Chevan, By my side I also want to give my deepest condolences to all the polish members for this tragedy.

In here you can see some images of the massacre, but be aware it are of very graphic nature.

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/msoldado/katyn.html

[Rus-Loh]

@Panzerknacker

In here you can see some images of the massacre, but be aware it are of very graphic nature.

http://www.exordio.com/1939-1945/codex/msoldado/katyn.html

I can see more there:

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches…_material.html

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches/bilds099-113.html

http://katynbooks.narod.ru/amtliches/bilds274-331.html

Аnd also:

http://serwisy.gazeta.pl/kraj/1,77363,4081449.html

“Rzeczpospolita”: nie wszyscy Polacy znaja prawde o zbrodni katynskiej

PAP
2007-04-23, ostatnia aktualizacja 2007-04-23 01:30
Na zlecenie “Rzeczpospolitej” i programu TVP “Warto rozmawiac”, TNS OBOP zapytal Polakow, czy slyszeli o zbrodni katynskiej. Z sondazu wynika, ze 40 proc. ankietowanych nie wie, kto wymordowal w Rosji tysiace polskich oficerow. Co dziesiaty Polak jest przekonany, ze tej zbrodni dokonali Niemcy.
Dziennik przypomina, ze 67 lat temu, w kwietniu 1940 roku, NKWD na rozkaz Stalina zamordowalo tysiace polskich jencow, glownie oficerow oraz przedstawicieli inteligencji.