Katyn 67th anniversary

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#61

Guys i think some of us are misunderstanding this thread.
Where from the insulting has come? why do blow lip to each other.
I think the most inportain thing in here is just the mutual personal communication and friendship.

Rus-loh firstly i wish to notice you the Kovalsky is my friend and i don’t wish to hear the tupical inner russian prejudices in here.
We are all the democrats and i don’t see the reasons not to think by this way.
We must to hold the our national emotions even if we are not agreable with opponents.

So please take the care for everybody who do not agree with you.
OK?:slight_smile:

Cheers.

#62

My dear friend Polar ( i hope you think simulary regarding me).
There is nothing new for me in this link, do you know why?
I’ve readed a handreds of forums in Russia and i’m perfectly know the positions of both enemy sides. As you saw in the Lexa post we have a different views as pro-polish and as pro-soviet. My personal point is that the every side in the admits a great mistakes in the political hysteria. They simply ignores the some of importiant facts that i could ignore.
This link that you’ve indicated at me just showed for us the tupical “righ-view polish” song about Nazy-Soviet cooperation in 1939-40. Even if it is blowing up at this moment by the contemporary US/British/EU in “solidarity” ( indeed in the pure politic reasons) ,could we nevertheless declare the pre-war Poland as democratic state in the relation to its neigbourgs state?
Could we ignored the Nazy-Polish colloboration before 1939- i think no.
Becouse the Poland participated in the division of Chehoslovakia ONLY year before the own devision.We hotly discussed it in the early thread with other poles ( Kovalsky remembere it ;)) And i don’t wish to repit it again.
I know a lot of links at the Russian forum where the our own “patriots” could absolutly prove the Poland was a simular agressor like and Nazy and USSR. But i will not becouse i know this is not able to help of our discussion.
Here we are study the history and we are learning the facts besides our primary task is to think in here.
So if you somewhere has read the it was “the somebody has proved something” why we could ignored some controversal facts aboud it, right?
If you are have no personal oppinion - this is not bed idea to get it in here.
So instead of insulting and balming eash other ( like it did the Lexa in his last post) we migh to begin the dialog although it hard for somebody.
But again the goal of our discussion must be the mutual respect to eash other.

Cheers

#63

Well.
I shall not name sir Kowalski “democrat” (this term at us in Russia already for a long time is perceived as a curse) if sir Kowalski will cease to put inverted commas in a word “historian” when he writes about me.

#64

You right.
Perhaps dear Kovalski will take own words back ?:slight_smile:
I think the behaviour of Lexa was not admissible in here.
It seem he has no personal point about the controversial facts above. I think this is sensless to blame somebody as “deniers” at same time he admit he simply “believer”.

#65

I’ve read this thread and I’m still confused. But i’m clear on a few things. Firstly there was a massacre. Who committed it? That would all depend on what version of events you believe. Perhaps the waters have been so muddied we may never truly know.

The indisputable fact is thousands of people were executed in cold blood by the orders of a murderous regime. If that regime was German or Soviet it may well be discussed for years to come. But I think to talk of the brutal deaths of thousands of people in such dispassionate terms is a great pity.

Regards digger.

#66

Well it seems for me i’ve understood you mate
Do you think this thread must be deducated to the victims of Katyn but not the discussion of who killed them.
I/m agree.
May be we need to open the new thread: “The Katyn:true and myths”?

#67

I think this is importaint

Well lets study this more carefully.
If the NKVD used a German pistols is it strange the skull of bodies in Kozij were from a bullet of german caliber?

  1. On hands of Poles killed in mountains Kozjih there were German cords

Well you right this is undisputable fact of the polish side as i read.
So i heared the version the USSR had buyed the german cords in the 1930?
Could it be the true?

  1. In tombs of Poles in Mountains Kozjih were steel (that is made not earlier than 1941) sleeves with German marks

Ops, this is new for me.
And how it was established the steel was made not early than 1941?

#68

On points.

Whether employees of NKVD could shoot Poles from german’s pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm.?

The answer - no, could not.
Pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm. were very big rarity in the USSR. Some thousand trunks of such calibre remained since times of revolution (from private weapon shops) and civil war (from interventionists).
These pistols were used as award weapon, and also given out as a hand arm to pilots and diplomatic couriers. In NKVD it use employees of a foreign department for performance of tasks on physical elimination of especially dangerous emigrants used them only.
There were some more thousand pistols of the Soviet manufacture of a design of Korovin of 1924. The design was the extremely unsuccessful - 56 details and very hard descent - and to the middle of 30th years these pistols have completely left the use because of breakages.
Accordingly for a small amount of pistols it was not required also an ammunition. All needs of the USSR for patrons of calibre 7,65 completely were provided with manufacture of such cartridges on Podolsk mechanical factory which began in 1925-26.
Any documents on purchases of the USSR in Germany in 20-30th years of pistols “Walter” in archives of the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs it is not found.
In Germany In 20th years of the USSR really bought in Germany pistols. But absolutely other pistols - “Mauser” of calibre of 7,63 mm. Documents on these transactions are. Except for that USSR has bought in Germany the license for manufacture of pistols “Mauser”.

Whether could buy the USSR in Germany cords?
No, could not - in 20 - 30th years of the USSR itself actively sold hempen cords across all Europe.

As have defined, that steel sleeves have been made in 1941?
Have very simply defined - till 1941 steel sleeves were not made at all. Anywhere in the world. Germany started their release owing to sharp deficiency of nonferrous metals. In the USSR manufacture of cartridges(patrons) of calibre 7,62 with steel sleeves began only in 1943.

#69

Is this the paper that is said to be falcified? If yes then could someone explain more about it.

#70

I think the word “unsurprising” could be substituted for “interesting” here based on that nation’s record.

#71

I think that any further debate in who did it is hopeless…sorry for the russian friends, but it is.

The bullet from calibre 7,63 Mauser and 7,65 Browning are almost the same,the Mauser leave the muzzle with more speed but in a body they are the same, the real bullet diameter is about 7,82-7.83mm. Unless they have some micrometer measuring gauges is imposssible to tell the difference.

Incidentally the standar german pistol caliber was the 9mm in those days.

#72

Well sorry mate but if you don’t know the details how could you debate it ?

The bullet from calibre 7,63 Mauser and 7,65 Browning are almost the same,the Mauser leave the muzzle with more speed but in a body they are the same, the real bullet diameter is about 7,82-7.83mm. Unless they have some micrometer measuring gauges is imposssible to tell the difference.

And who do talk about bullets mate?
There were found a lot of spent shells in the graves
You could see it in here
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=702
[

Incidentally the standar german pistol caliber was the 9mm in those days.

Incidentary the standard soviet pistols was the TT caliber of 7,62mm.
Do you wish to say it is no difference between 7,62 and 7,65mm ? :wink:

#73

Well thanks Rus-loh.
So did everybody see any documents which supported the USSR had purchased the 7,65 mm pistols in the Germany?

Whether could buy the USSR in Germany cords?
No, could not - in 20 - 30th years of the USSR itself actively sold hempen cords across all Europe.

Well i heared in the USSR was widely used a hemp cord, but in Germany was mass prodused cord from paper.
BTW this is very interesting what do thoink about our polish friends.
But could we actually exclude the possibility of using the GErmans cord by NKVD?

As have defined, that steel sleeves have been made in 1941?
Have very simply defined - till 1941 steel sleeves were not made at all. Anywhere in the world. Germany started their release owing to sharp deficiency of nonferrous metals. In the USSR manufacture of cartridges(patrons) of calibre 7,62 with steel sleeves began only in 1943.

Well the steel shells was not produced before 1941 neither in Germany nor in the USSR.

So how could it was founded in the graves of 1940 - do somebody know?

#74

The Deustche Waffen und Munitionen fabriken made ammo for around the world, the Argentine army used DWM bullets in his rifles and pistols so…:rolleyes:

Incidentary the standard soviet pistols was the TT caliber of 7,62mm.
Do you wish to say it is no difference between 7,62 and 7,65mm

The difference is really minimal, as I said you only can discover that with a extremely precise measuring device and a strong knowledge about small arms and ammo. Not to mention that the copper jacketed bullet would be slightly diformated after go trough the human skull.

If you still think that there is place for some revisionism do it …at your own risk to fall in ridiculous.

#75

It is nonsense.
The patron 7,65 “Browning” and patron 7,62 “Mauser” have not only different calibre, but also the different form, different сapacity of a charge and different length.
Can look here:

http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/32acp.shtml - patron “Browning” 7,65x17 mm. for “Walter”
http://vimpel-v.com/weapon/patron/7_62-30.shtml - patron “Mauser” 7,62X25 mm. for TT

It is a site in Russian, but circuits will be clear, as I hope, and without translation.

#76

If it is short…

  1. This document is dated 1940 though it is printed on the form of 1930th years. It is extremely improbable, that the economic department of the VKP(B) for two months 1940 has not provided the Political bureau with forms with an inscription " 194 _ "
  2. The extract is addressed to L.Berii in spite of the fact that it(he) in structure of “three” is not mentioned. And should it is mentioned, and it is DELETED personally by Stalin.
  3. In surname “Кобулов” completely impossible typing error on those times - “Кaбулов” - is made.
#77

Chevan and wich of shells is made of stell? For me any shells on photo isn’t made of stell.

Rus-Loh and Chevan
Did you have any photos with stell shells fouded in Katyn, Miednoje or Kharkov?

Originally Posted by Rus-Loh View Post
On points.

Whether employees of NKVD could shoot Poles from german’s pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm.?

The answer - no, could not.
Pistols of calibre of 7,65 mm. were very big rarity in the USSR. Some thousand trunks of such calibre remained since times of revolution (from private weapon shops) and civil war (from interventionists).
These pistols were used as award weapon, and also given out as a hand arm to pilots and diplomatic couriers. In NKVD it use employees of a foreign department for performance of tasks on physical elimination of especially dangerous emigrants used them only.
There were some more thousand pistols of the Soviet manufacture of a design of Korovin of 1924. The design was the extremely unsuccessful - 56 details and very hard descent - and to the middle of 30th years these pistols have completely left the use because of breakages.
Accordingly for a small amount of pistols it was not required also an ammunition. All needs of the USSR for patrons of calibre 7,65 completely were provided with manufacture of such cartridges on Podolsk mechanical factory which began in 1925-26.
Any documents on purchases of the USSR in Germany in 20-30th years of pistols “Walter” in archives of the German Ministry for Foreign Affairs it is not found.
In Germany In 20th years of the USSR really bought in Germany pistols. But absolutely other pistols - “Mauser” of calibre of 7,63 mm. Documents on these transactions are. Except for that USSR has bought in Germany the license for manufacture of pistols “Mauser”.
Well thanks Rus-loh.

Sorry but this is not any prove. Weapon of cal 7,65mm was popular in Poland and NKVD could take this weapon after 17.IX.1939. This same situation could be with cord.
BTW during Spanish Civil War Poland sold 67 old tanks Renault R-17 to Republic, but in all documents coutry destination was China.

#78

Rus-Loh,

What about the document number? I have read that the number does not fit to the time the document dates to.

Has it been proved? How?

Thanks!

#79

From five sleeves steel (because are drawn by a magnet) are the third (it from above is covered with a thin layer of copper) and the fourth on which there is marks DWM 749A 43 (it is covered green is delicious).
The information on it is received privately from the collector to whom these sleeves now belong.

Frivolous objection.
Poland till 1915 was a part of Russian empire and consequently in the Polish army in “Russian” calibres too prevailed.
Certainly the calibre 7,65 in Poland has been distributed a little bit more widely, than in the USSR, but it and there was rare enough.
Except for that it is necessary to note, that РККА could not grasp in the POLISH warehouses patrons with GERMAN marks in any way.
Very strange it turns out at experts оf Katyn’s a question - the USSR in 20th years buys in Germany patrons of calibre 7,65 to pistols which will be just seized in Poland in 1939.

And it to what?

#80

The photo of such sleeves from Katyn is!
And made by Germans in 1943.
Here - look:

The extreme right sleeve in the bottom number(line) is covered with a thick layer of a rust.
So is strong rust for years - two the steel sleeve which is taking place besides in the aggressive sour environment (which arises at decomposition of corpses) can only.

Laughter for the sake of - the “same” photos on a site of democratic experts Катынского of an affair here is how look:

http://katyn.codis.ru/photoev.htm

It is easy to notice, that (including rusty) experts have cut off two sleeves…