Katyn

World War II General WWII Discussion
#21

How have you guessed:);)?

I meant that it was Stalin who chosen the date of 17th of September 1939 to attack Poland.
So it is obvious that for Poles the date of 17th of September is the best for honouring the victims of Soviet atrocities.

We as i said this date is just pure POLITICAL.
Besides why do not call he date of 17 sept s date of atrocities?
As i know the Polis army was fully defeated till tis date, and soxviet ws aimed take back the lands of Western Ukraine and Belorussia?
DO you realize it?
Why you still blame the Soviet imperial ambitions , but deny the Polish OWN imerialism?
SO date 17 sept has NO relation to the Polish victims - this could be the character date for Ukraine, but not for Poland.

By the way, who do you think you are to tell Poles that it is a bad date for presentation of “Katyn”?
Chevan, USSR is dead. We don’t listen to Moscow anymore. Please, realize it :slight_smile:

I know it perfectly. You listen ONLY Washington today. And this bother me , believe it.The polish Kachinsky’s policy toward the Russia was disgusting.Even the old polish TV films was banned.
I tell you not about “whom Poland should listen”, but elementary mutual respect it needed for the all of us.

Why? It’s simple :slight_smile:
Because it is truth.

So why this “truth” has a lot of logical mistakes and documental disclaimers?
WHay the germans steel shells were found out in mass graves that has been started for production only in the summer 1940?
And What about evidence of poples who saw the Polish prisoners in spring-summer 1941 in a building of road near the Katyn forest?
http://katyn.ru/index.php?go=Pages&in=view&id=7
There a lot of thing to discuss here, so i have to say that the “truth” is more deeper than seems.
I personally never deny that this could be the NKVD who shoted the poles. Very likely, thay killed a much more peoples especially during the Red mass terror.

We don’t need to lie, we don’t need to keep our archives closed, we don’t need to make absolutely stupid theories in order to divert world’s attention from obvious Soviet crimes.
We just can tell our story. And Wajda in fact did it.

So why Waida do not craet the films about victims of famine and cruel treating in Polish comcentrations camps in 1920-21?
There were died about 18 000 of pows( according ONLY polish datas).
So should we, russians, every year remind the Poles about this Crime?

Well, that’s a true reason to be proud, Chevan…

This is not proudness. I just still hope to visit the Poland in future:)

I hope I didn’t harm you too seriously :wink:

I wouldn’t call it “hysteria” - rather a need of objective discussion which would uncovered all the tragic events once for all. Without lying, negation of facts, hiding evidences and way to emotional language - for both sides, polish and russian.

You mean the movie “1612”? I’m about to watch it.

No i don’t mean the 1612 and even do not with to watch it.

#22

I know you long enough. :D:D:D

Honouring a victims of Soviets is a political act aimed against Russia?
Following your logic, Poles (as well as other European nations), should consider a removal of Red Army cemeteries from their soil, because these monuments and graves honour the communist ideology, which is officially forbidden by polish constitution.
I assume that none of us would ever like to see it happening.

Chevan, whenever you like it or not, USSR on 17th September 1939 invaded an independent state, which eastern territories were given to Poland according to Riga Treaty in 1921, where Soviet Russia agreed for this conditions after being defeated by Poland.
I know you would like to erase these facts from history books, but it is impossible mate.

Is this what bother so much?
Or maybe a fact that Poles, as the rest of Eastern Europe, don’t listen to Russia anymore?

True. I hope that today’s visit of Polish PM (hey, we have a new one! since November! His name’s Tusk!) to Moscow changes something.

I aboslutely agree with you.

Still there is hope!!! Hallelujah! :wink:

Because he wanted to make a movie about Katyn, mate.
Maybe you should ask the same question Oliver Stone, Ridley Scott, David Lynch and others :slight_smile:

Do you have any proofs that it was “crime” Chevan?
And why Soviets never asked about these POWs before 1939???
Why this case was brought to a daylight olny after Gorbachev admitted that Soviets had murdered polish officers in 1940?

I’m not denying anything. But if you making accusations, be prepared to show the proofs.

By the way, the conditions in which Russian POWs were held in Poland 1920/21 were very similar to conditions of Soviet camps for Polish POWs at the same time.

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#23

Oh that’s true …:slight_smile:

Honouring a victims of Soviets is a political act aimed against Russia?
Following your logic, Poles (as well as other European nations), should consider a removal of Red Army cemeteries from their soil, because these monuments and graves honour the communist ideology, which is officially forbidden by polish constitution.

Well firstly those monuments and graves honour the memory of the perished 600 000 of soviet soldiers ( not just russians).
Secondary - you are wrong about other European nations- the GErmans still saved most of monuments and care about EVERY grave of Soviet soldiers.
In Chech republic there also were recently a report on TV whem Putin with Chech president have layed the wreath at the Soviet monument in Prague ( that is also a mass grave of Soviet soldiers).
I do not speak about Belorussia.
So you please do not spread the rusofobia at the other nation:)
The fact that the polish authoritie removed all the monuments is pretty well tells about Polish relation to us .
I 'm not deny the polish right to do what they want- i just notice that they absolutly ignore the our mutual interests.

Chevan, whenever you like it or not, USSR on 17th September 1939 invaded an independent state, which eastern territories were given to Poland according to Riga Treaty in 1921, where Soviet Russia agreed for this conditions after being defeated by Poland.
I know you would like to erase these facts from history books, but it is impossible mate.

Oh Kovalski , i did not wish to erase those fact from history books - to the contrast - i wish to remind it again.
i din’t guess about you love at the bolshevicks who signed the Riga Treaty:)
Where it come from?
You see - poles think that Bolshevics are good when they signed the treaty according that Poles have got the territiries with non-polish majiority population.
But the other bolshevick Stalin - who joined those territorier back to Ukraine and Belorussia - is bad.:slight_smile:
I just wonder of polish logic:)

Is this what bother so much?
Or maybe a fact that Poles, as the rest of Eastern Europe, don’t listen to Russia anymore?

To be honest, i worry about sad fact that the rest of Eastern Europe could not be really independent mentally.
The problem is not that they don’t listem Russia- the problem is that they couldn’t don’t listen any one.
Every time when they release e from foreign influence - they immediatelly joined in other one.
What was the need to join Poland in NATO mate?
Who does treat for you- Iran or Nothern Korea?:slight_smile:

True. I hope that today’s visit of Polish PM (hey, we have a new one! since November! His name’s Tusk!) to Moscow changes something.

Oh it’s amazing- you have the new one PM:)
Mabe you have the “new one” relation toward Russia?

I aboslutely agree with you.
Still there is hope!!! Hallelujah! :wink:

Hope never dies:)

Because he wanted to make a movie about Katyn, mate.
Maybe you should ask the same question Oliver Stone, Ridley Scott, David Lynch and others :slight_smile:

What i have to ask the Oliver Stone about?
Why the steel sheels were found in the Katyn?
If even you do not know why.

Do you have any proofs that it was “crime” Chevan?

Kovalski- who am i in your mind.
Troll who speaks unconfirmed fary talls?
Sure i have a sources that claim my point of view.

And why Soviets never asked about these POWs before 1939???

And why soviets never told about Katun before 1989?

Why this case was brought to a daylight olny after Gorbachev admitted that Soviets had murdered polish officers in 1940?

And why we should keep silence about that?
If the Soviets hided the truth about fate of russian POWs on the political reasons- why we should deny it today?:slight_smile:

I’m not denying anything. But if you making accusations, be prepared to show the proofs.

No you deny the any facts that beat the polish version of Katyn.
This is strange.
And this is not me who make the accusation about treatment of POWs in Poland.
This was the American oragisation “Union of christian Young” that inspected the concentration camp in Tuhola and found out the rought violations of the rules of holding the prisoners in 1921.
The fact that Polish authorities knew about that - does not change that it caused the mass death of POWs.

By the way, the conditions in which Russian POWs were held in Poland 1920/21 were very similar to conditions of Soviet camps for Polish POWs at the same time.

There is no any documents that tells about that.
If you could find it - please.
The difference of Soviet relation to the prisoners was that the soviet look at them as for the brother “working class elements” that was forced to fight against Red Army.
The Poles look at that from the pure nationalistic positions- anti-russian fight.
Add to that the ancient polish rusophobia- and as the resault the cruel treatment of POWs is well explained.

#24

With your line of thinking every movie about the holocaust must be be made because the “germanophobia”.

The word “troll” comes to me very naturally after reading some here, God, save me . :rolleyes:

I am looking for the movie by the way, by all the “channels” you know what I mean.

#25

You mean the Malvinas/Folkland thread in this forum:):slight_smile:
Absolutly agree…:slight_smile:

#26

??

Sorry but I dont follow you.

#27

You seem not to remember about Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Do they love Soviet Union so much?

Now I got you :slight_smile:
What monuments? When have they been removed? Where did you find an info about it?
NONE of these monuments was removed. You are wrong, again :slight_smile:

Have you ever heard about “international law”???
“Pacta sund servanta” gives you a clue?
The “treaty” is being concluded by the at least two sides - and is meant to be RESPECTED by those sides.

No matter who lived on these territories, because:
Soviet Russia signed the Riga Treaty = Soviet Russia accepted the Riga Treaty.

So, if I were you I would study the Soviet logic (if such logic ever existed) :slight_smile:
You can find a lot of surprises there.

Well mate, what makes you competent to evaluate East European nations’ “mental independence”???
Once again, focus on Soviet/Russian mentality (there is a lot to discuss), rather than try to say anything about other nations’ mentality.
It is ironic that you try to discuss it with me :slight_smile:

Better give up with these “theories” about “mental independence”.

Ignorance will lead you nowhere Chevan.

Well, sort of… :slight_smile:

Are you joking mate???
Now I have to explain to you why Soviets wanted to hide their crimes???

What political reasons did Soviets have???

As I see it, Russians try to put on the same level the case of Soviet POWs in Poland and Katyn Genocide.
But my friend, there is one big difference between these cases:
the massacre of Polish officers was a deliberate act of Soviet state. And you cannot say nothing similar about Soviet POWs.
Nobody wanted to murder them because they were Russians.

Nonsense!
It was all about getting rid of Poles and anything that was polish. Nothing about some “working class alliance” mumble.

Well, Poles didn’t want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don’t be surprised that it was anti-russian.

“Ancient polish rusophobia”???
And you ask me if I think about you as a some “Troll who speaks unconfirmed fairy tales”?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#28

Kovalski,
only if if it was so simple about respecting the traties…

Well, Poles didn’t want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don’t be surprised that it was anti-russian.

“Marched to Warsaw”.
Are you speaking of 1939 or 1944?

And you ask me if I think about you as a some “Troll who speaks unconfirmed fairy tales”?

Comme on, if you think Chevan is a troll then ytou have not seen too many of them.

#29

You’re right Igor.
Unfortunately, it almost never was.

Marched on Warsaw, not “to Warsaw”.
And I was talking about 1920.

I was just joking… :wink:

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

P.S. I’ve got at least two trolls at work. Chevan doesn’t look and behave like them :slight_smile:

#30

OK. I see.

Kovalski, you have to realise that there was practicaly nothing about russian in RKKA in 1920. It was completely soaked in bolshevik mentality, which was ment to get rid of everything traditional and national.
I understand that for Poles it did not make much difference back then, but it does make difference now when learning about history.

#31

Are you about parades of Waffen SS there?
Sure they love SU not so much as Nazy:)
However is it not strange that GEmrnans themself behave more polite toward the histroy?

Now I got you :slight_smile:
What monuments? When have they been removed? Where did you find an info about it?
NONE of these monuments was removed. You are wrong, again :slight_smile:

Have you got me?:slight_smile:
None of those monuments while have not moved.
But … the polish authorities not leave the idea to move it soon in future
Find sources in polish youself.I have russian one

Have you ever heard about “international law”???
“Pacta sund servanta” gives you a clue?
The “treaty” is being concluded by the at least two sides - and is meant to be RESPECTED by those sides.

h mate , but international law did force to sign the threaty with Bolshevicks Murders who killed so much own peoples, right?
Or in you mind if the killed NON-poles in the 1917-20 - this mean they are not so bad?And Poland could have deeds with them?

No matter who lived on these territories, because:
Soviet Russia signed the Riga Treaty = Soviet Russia accepted the Riga Treaty.

Oh really no matter who lived on those territories from the ancient time:)
Egorka we have one more ally in fight agains finnish guys- according the our friend this is not matter who lived in KArelia . If it was Russian territiria since ancient time- finns have no right for Karealia
Good mate Kovalski- i knew you are hidden russian friend :wink:
BTW i will never tell about German Upper Silesia that Poles took for themself after ww2:)
Let’s admit that it was threaty with Germans according mutual polish German will:)

So, if I were you I would study the Soviet logic (if such logic ever existed) :slight_smile:
You can find a lot of surprises there.

But mate - you have admited the Polish Communist Logic,right.When the poles colloborated with Soviets pretty much. Even the Polish 1 and 2 army fight alongside with Soviets.
according your logic the Soviet Polish Logic was also good coz it was Polish too?:slight_smile:

Well mate, what makes you competent to evaluate East European nations’ “mental independence”???

And what makes the East Europeans act in such anti-russian way today?
Have only they the EXCLUSIVE right to critisize the Russia for the Soviet deeds?

Once again, focus on Soviet/Russian mentality (there is a lot to discuss), rather than try to say anything about other nations’ mentality.

But you even do not wish to notice the close CONNECTION of things
Or you thing we should look as the Poland falls down into antir-russian hysteria deeper?

It is ironic that you try to discuss it with me :slight_smile:

And with whom i should discuss here the problems of Polish Menthality?With Nickdfresh?:slight_smile:
You as the sitizen of Polans - the one of the central East European state , is it not?

Better give up with these “theories” about “mental independence”.

So whay those 'theories" are exactly confirmed by practice?

Ignorance will lead you nowhere Chevan.

As and you Kovalski, but is this a reason to keep silence about actual problems?
Or hold the pose that everything is OK?

Well, sort of… :slight_smile:

So why did you discuss the questions entire thread with troll?:slight_smile:
May be you worth him:)

Are you joking mate???
Now I have to explain to you why Soviets wanted to hide their crimes???

And Why soviets wanted to hide the Polish crimes?
Why soviets hided the henocide in Volun?
YOu are wrong if you think that the soviets cover ONLY russians crimes.

As I see it, Russians try to put on the same level the case of Soviet POWs in Poland and Katyn Genocide.
But my friend, there is one big difference between these cases:
the massacre of Polish officers was a deliberate act of Soviet state. And you cannot say nothing similar about Soviet POWs.

But what are you talking about BIG differenceif after the famine and beating ( and also lack of elementary medical service) were perished about the same figure peoples like in Katyn?
They all died JUST for few mounth of winter 1920-21.
In you mind this is BIG differnce?
I do not think so, as well as the relatives of perished soldiers.
According you logic the Jews who died in Nazy Concentration Camps from the unhuman treating and famine were more lucky than that ones who were shoted in public NAzy mass murderings like in Kiev?

Nobody wanted to murder them because they were Russians.

Oh sure mate , you right…
The official polish propoganda called them as the Jewih-Bolshevics subhuman.
look at the polish poster of 1920

Does it nothing remind you?:slight_smile:

Nonsense!
It was all about getting rid of Poles and anything that was polish. Nothing about some “working class alliance” mumble.

What do you mean as getting rid of Poles?

Well, Poles didn’t want to march on Moscow. But Russians in fact marched on Warsaw.
So, please don’t be surprised that it was anti-russian.

Oh poor Poles , they did not marhced on Moscow.
But they marched on Kiev and Minsk very well in 1920:)
Do you forget it mate?

“Ancient polish rusophobia”???
And you ask me if I think about you as a some “Troll who speaks unconfirmed fairy tales”?

I ask you coz you ONLY disccus with troll Chevan:)

#32

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/culture/?id=78355

Andrzej Wajda’s feature film Katyn about the killing by the Soviet NKVD police of Polish officers in 1940 has been shown in Moscow amid fevered scenes to get tickets.

The 1100-seat Cinema House was packed to capacity, with many people standing along the walls and a crowd of cinema fans unsuccessfully trying to enter the hall.

…

#33

So maybe this movie is not that bad Chevan, and your hair will not turn white if you watch it.

#34

Chevan, thruth can be unpleasant…
I saw that film, it’s not anti-russian. De facto it’s feature document. Document, which shows cruel reality of world war 2 and post war situation. If you think it’s anti-russian because it’s about Katyn massacre, it would be also anti-german, because there are evil German enemies. :roll:
If it would be document about german holocaust, would be it antigerman?

#35

The only problem here is that some russians still believe in the fairy tale that they didnt do it, but they did, the NKVD kill the polish officers, tragic and simple.

Nearly 70 years after is time to stop messing around and accept that fact.:rolleyes:

#36

I am afraid Putin goes all out to conceal that fact.

#37

Does anyone know who sells this film that will ship to the United States? I have tried other sources but I had audio problems.

#38

I found a copy on ebay. In case anyone is interested the seller has another copy available:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260229109655

#39

Katyn - UK Premiere

22nd April

http://www.kinoteka.org.uk/event/13

#40

Katyn showing in the US

http://www.tribecafilmfestival.org/filmguide/Katyn.html