Katyn

World War II General WWII Discussion
#41

Hello group this is my first post and thanks for having me. Russia knows who is responsable for “Katyn”.

Also yet to be told is the 1.7 million taken from “Kresy” to be used as slaves and die on "Stalin’s orders. This was where the Polish militry reserve were given property in 1920 for their front line battle that claimed the land. Today this is know as Ukraine.

Many were shot when they came in the night to get the men and their families as they slept. Many more lie along the tracks on the way to Siberia. Within the camps of Siberia death was seen as a blessing. This blessing came to a large amount.

What gave the family’s a chance at life was when Nazi’s attacked Soviets. All of a sudden Stalin relised he needed the very people he was killing off. We were given amnesty to help Soviets that Nazi’s were attacking.

After the betrayal and Stalin taking over Poland, the people of Poland could not even speak of the crimes commited by Soviets. “Communist Poland” was forced to live in silence until 1989 when they at last were free of Soviet powers. Even after the war thousands of Polish people were killed by ruling powers.

With the release of “Katyn” more and more of the “forgotten Polish” are coming to light. Why were the real victim’s, Poland’s people left out of the “Holocaust”? History as we teach in the USA is distored and written in partial truths.

Stalin’s crimes and Catholic victims (the majority) are not given a place in the United States Holocaust Memorial Musuem in Washington, DC. USHMM.org Holocaust has taken the definition and tweaked it just so, leaving the victims out.

Just recently the EU asked that Russia be held responsable for the claims of the families taken from Kresy. A deadline of Dec. 2008 is set in Poland to have your claim in. Families taken from their estates by Soviets starting Feb. 10, 1940 shall be reimbursed for the homes. Yesterdays hero’s that lost their lives, loved ones and country’s at last shall be placed in history.

I look forward to hearing and seeing photo’s,

Carol Celinska Dove, USA

#42

“Kresy” were Belarusian and Ukrainian ethnic territories occupied by Poles.

The figure 1.7 million Poles form Kresy sent to Siberia is obviously unrealistic. The bulk of so-called Soviet “jastrebki” that fought on behalf of the Soviets against local Ukrainain population were made up of Poles, communistic authorities did not face any organized resistance in Poland itself, Armija Krajowa just self-dissolved at the order of communists

#43

What betrayal?

With the release of “Katyn” more and more of the “forgotten Polish” are coming to light. Why were the real victim’s, Poland’s people left out of the “Holocaust”?

Evidently because Poles did not manage to turn into jews in time.

History as we teach in the USA is distored and written in partial truths.
Stalin’s crimes and Catholic victims (the majority) are not given a place in the United States Holocaust Memorial Musuem in Washington, DC. USHMM.org Holocaust has taken the definition and tweaked it just so, leaving the victims out.

What an obcessive desire to resemble jews.

#44

It’s really simple I want history to be the truth.

#45

No this was Poland. We were not simply “occupied”. You are right the number is much to low, Russia is still releasing the numbers. If you have viewed “Katyn” you will see where our active fighters ended up, the ones that remained unarmed living with their families in eastern Poland “Kresy”, were gather up in the night. A knock on the door and Jewish, Ukrainian and armed Soviet took them to cattle cars, on “Stalins” orders. Ukrainan and Jewish split the property and estates our families built.

Anders Army known as Poland’s Home Army was not fighting for “Soviets” and did not attack Ukraine, they were in it to regain Poland. If you are referring to 1941 in Ukraine, here’s your link.

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm

If you recall Stalin and Hitler had a plan, wipe out Poland and split Poland. Well look who ended up with Poland. After the war the majority of military from Poland had to go to another country as Stalin labled them enimies of the State. Organized resistance, are you kidding please read up on the loss of life due to the condition of the Polish when amnesty was granted.

#46

Be careful what you wish. Can you handle the truth?
Here a tip fpr you:

  1. Institute of National Remembrance, Warszawa POLAND:
    “At the same time the Soviet authorities were carrying out four major deportation operations, which resulted in roughly [b]320,000[/b] Polish citizens were relocated deeply into the USSR.”

  2. [b]Karta Center Foundation in Warsaw[/b]:

And welcome to the forum!

#47

What can I say! Circus came back to the town!
Popcorn, coach, watching and enjoying!

#48

QUOTE]And welcome to the forum![/QUOTE]

Thank you, It is four pages long is it alright to add this much information? I could also email you how this number came about.

#49

What is four pages long?
The official Polish numbers for the 1939-1941 deportion is 320.000 people of all ages and genders. The rest is speculation.

BTW: You do not read Polish, do you?

#50

How we came up with this 1.7 million. You are right about speculation. What we have done is taken numbers prior to deportation, differant reports, books that have studied this area. IMO the number is a low estimite. Below is something I recieved this AM and have not even read. I copied it as you see I am not alone in this number.

No I do not read Polish. I wish now I did.

The Polish Community in Britain
Post-war Polish migration to Britain resulted predominantly from the dual German and
Russian occupations of Poland in 1939, a traumatic episode in Polish history that is well
documented.3 A significant number of those Poles who ended up in Britain served in
the Polish army throughout the war, and eventually fought under British command,
contributing in particular to the Battle of Britain and intelligence advances. The other
major ‘route’ to Britain involved those who had originated from eastern Poland and
were part of the 1.7 million Poles who experienced forced deportation to Siberia by
Russian troops in 1940.4 Eventually the survivors were released after an amnesty with
the Russian government in 1941, and those of suitable age and fitness were drafted into
the Second Polish Corps under General Anders. The remaining civilians spent the rest
of the war in Polish Red Cross transit camps throughout India, Africa and the Middle
East. At the end of the war, as Poland fell to communism and the eastern territories
were lost to Russia, it became clear to the Polish forces and refugees abroad that a
return to the homeland was unrealistic, and that staying in Britain was one of the only
viable options. As a result, by 1951 the Polish population in Britain had risen from
44,642 in 1931 to 162,339.5

3 See particularly N. Davies, Heart of Europe - A Short History of Poland, Oxford: Oxford University Press,
1984.
4 The exact number is contested and will never be known - see K. Sword, Deportation and Exile - Poles in
the Soviet Union, 1939-48, 2nd ed., Basingstoke: Macmillan, 1996, pp. 25-7.
5 See C. Holmes, John Bull’s Island - Immigration and British Society 1871-1971, Basingstoke: Macmillan,
1988, pp. 168, 211-212.
6 Regional figures taken from J. Zubrzycki, Polish Immigrants in Britain, The Hague: Martinus Nijhoff,
1956, pp. 69-70. Leicestershire figures found in 1951 Census Report, Leicestershire.
7 Figures taken from 1961 Census Report, Leicestershire and 1991 Census Report, Leicestershire.
8 Figure taken from D. Nash & D. Reader (eds.), Leicester in the Twentieth Century, Stroud: Alan Strutton,
1993, p. 187. A good recent study of Leicester’s African Caribbean population can be found in L. Chessum,
From Immigrants to Ethnic Minority- Making black community in Britain, Aldershot: Ashgate, 2000.

http://www.le.ac.uk/lahs/downloads/2002/burrell2002-3.pdf

#51

You wrote that “This was where the Polish militry reserve were given property in 1920” that is most of the lands and property of these Poles were taken from local Ukrainians, Belarusians and transferred to Poles in the 1920-30s.

And there was almost no anti-Soviet fighters killed in Katyn as there was almost zero resistance to the Soviet invasion on behalf of the Polish Army in 1939.
There were mainly victims of political purge who never offered armed resistance to the Soviets. The estimated number of victims is about 22,000, with the most commonly cited number of 21,768. [2]About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being “intelligence agents, gendarmes, spies, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials.”[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Anders Army known as Poland’s Home Army was not fighting for “Soviets” and did not attack Ukraine, they were in it to regain Poland. .

Poland’s Home Army attacked Ukrainains. Poles wanted to remain occupants in so-called Kresy, Ukrainain and Belarusian ethnic territories, after the German defeat. Fortunately, Polish Home Army was kicked out of Ukraine by local nationalist units.

Poland’s Home Army in Poland laid down arms and self-dissolved at the communist order. It is a fact that can’t be called in question

Poles in Ukraine, including the former members of self-dissolved Polish Home Army, actively collaborated with the Soviets and volonteered to join anti-UPA jastrebki units.

If you recall Stalin and Hitler had a plan, wipe out Poland and split Poland.

I can recall that Poland remained a separate independent state without being forced to be part of the USSR and was even given extensive German territories.

#52

Go once again to my post #46 and follow the first link to the Polish National Rememberence Institute.
That is the official Polish number for the deportation.
1.7 million is the product of lack of informmation during the Cold War time.

#53

Professor Keith Sword: “Deportation and Exile: Poles in the Soviet Union, 1939-1948”, ISBN 0-312-12397-3: “Most estimates from Polish émigré sources range between 1.250.000 and 1.600.000 altogether. The fact that the Soviet authorities only admitted to holding 387.932 Polish citizens at the outbreak of the German-Soviet conflict can be attributed to a number of factors. Firstly, the Soviets’ category of ‘Polish citizen’ may have been restricted to those who were not permanent residents of eastern Poland when the Red Army moved in. The permanent residents of the region were considered by this time to have become Soviet citizens. Secondly, the mortality rate of the Polish deportee population, estimated in some studies to be as high as 30 per cent per year, would have drastically reduced the original number. It is unlikely, however, that Soviet officials had reliable and up-to-date statistics of this kind - still less that they would have taken the trouble to collect them after the war broke out. The most probable explanation. is that the figures were a guess, a deliberate deception.”

Professor Edward J. Rozek: “Allied Wartime Diplomacy: A Pattern in Poland”: “From September 17, 1939 to June 1941, 1.692.000 Poles, Jews, Ukrainians and Byelorussians were forcibly taken from their homes and deported to Russia. The number included 230.000 soldiers and officers of the Polish Army; 990.000 civilians, who were deported because of their ‘nationalistic bourgeois background’; 250.000 political ‘class enemies’; 210.000 Poles conscripted into the Red Army and then sent deep into the Soviet Union; and 12.000 other Poles gathered forcibly from the Baltic area. Among the deportees were 160.000 children and adolescents. . These figures were compiled by the Polish Embassy in the USSR during the period from August 1941 to April 1943 and are based on testimony of over 18.000 eyewitnesses - Poles who passed through prisons, concentration camps and forced labour camps in the Soviet Union. This collection is now in the Hoover Library on War, Revolution, and Peace in Stanford, California”.

Julian Siedlecki: “Losy Polakow w ZSRR w latach 1939-1986”: “Polish authorities estimated that around 1.500.000 Polish citizens were deported to the Soviet Union”.
6. Michael Hope: “Polish Deportees in the Soviet Union”, ISBN 0 948202 76 9: Including the relatively small percentage of Ukrainians, Jews and Byelorussians, the total number of Polish citizens deported to the Soviet Government during its ‘eternal friendship’ with Nazi Germany
Between 1939 and 1941 amounted to approximately 1,680,000 people, not including prisoners of war. There is a broad measure of agreement with this figure. Zubrzycki records in 1956 an estimated figure of one and a half million. This was revised upwards to a new figure of 1,700.000 in 1944 by the then Polish Government in exile. The Institute of Jewish Affairs in the US puts it at two million, of whom 500,000 were Jews. This latter figure is disputed, and the latest estimate (1972), compiled by the Sikorski Museum and the Polish Institute is 1,680,000, supported by calculations made by the Catholic Church. It is important to stress that these figures do not include military deportees."

article from a Polish newspaper in France, published in 1954:

Poles In the Depths of the USSR
The nightmarish fruits of the deportations

The overall number of Polish citizens deported by the NKVD from our eastern territories to the Soviet Union in the period 17th Sept.1939-July 1941 totaled 1.692.000 people. This figure comes from the following:
a) prisoners of war from the 1939 campaign 230.000
b) those interned after the 1939 campaign 12.000
c) those sent to labour camps 990.000
d) those condemned to prison 250.000
e) those incorporated into the Red Army 210.000

                                                                              Total            1.692.000

In late autumn 1939 a decree was announced in the camps where Polish prisoners of war were interned (men) that all those who came from the territories occupied by the Red Army could return to their homes. Soon around 46.000 left the camps.

On July 30, 1941 Polish Government in London signed a treaty with the Soviet Union, as a result of which Russia was to release all the Polish citizens deported since 17th Sept.39.

Throughout February 1942 preparations were carried out to fulfill this agreement. The representatives of the Polish Government were bringing prisoners of war from whom army divisions were being formed. Unfortunately the Soviet authorities organized only two waves of repatraiation: one in March and the second in August 1942, which were directed to the Middle East.

This way the following numbers left the Soviet Union:
a) prisoners of war from the eastern territories of Poland 46.000
b)army 40.000
c)civilian population 74.500
Total 160.000

The second time the Soviet army entered Poland, under the slogan of ‘liberating’ the countries of Eastern and Central Europe it brought a new wave of terror and deportations.

These deportations have lasted from spring 1945 to this day. According to approximate calculations the Soviets sent away into the depths of Russia from that time till the end of 1951 around 1.700.000 people.

Therefore, the numbers of Polish citizens deported to Russia are as follows:
a) from 17 Sept. 1939 to July 1941 1.692.000
b)from spring 1945 to the end of 1951 1.700.000
_________________________________________________________________________ Total 3.392.000

Those who stayed for ever in Russia, ie those who perished, are the following:
a) those who died from natural causes up to 1st October 1942 413.000
b)officers murdered in Katyn 8.300
c) those who died from cold during transports and from exhaustion
in labour camps and prisons 308.000
d) those murdered by their guards during the evacuation of prisons
and camps after the outbreak of the Russo-German war 4.500
e) those who disappeared without trace 113.500
Total 850.000
f) according to the calculations of the League for Human and Civil Rights
from spring 1945 till the end of 1951 those who lost their lives 750.000
___________________________________
Total 1.600.000

Thus if we continue our calculations:
a) those deported from 1939 till the end of 1951 3.392.000
b) those who lost their lives 1.600.000
c)those repatriated 160.500
____________________________________
Total 1.760.000

We thus reach the figure of 1.631.500, ie those still dispersed around prisons and labour camps all over Russia, suffering hopeless and depressing vegetation.

Here is a break down and some of the growing number of victim’s.

#54

Karta is not a complete list, what you see is what Russia has confirmed.

Audience were pleased with their work, however still sees need of further researches to recognize all kinds of Sybiraks from different periods of Polish history (ie deportees from 30’s, from 1940/41 to other oblasts, soldiers of Armia Krajowa and others sent to Siberia in 1946-50 etc.).

The historians explained that 320.000 refers to confirmed by existing/ found documentation (in East and West) number of Poles deported only in mentioned above 4 deportation of 1940/41. It’s a bottom margain, which for sure will not be lower. It doesn’t mean, that is a full number of deportees. In their opinion in can be 1 million or more in total.

As for who owned Kresy, her’s a great site. It not only gives who owned but who was living in diff. area’s.

Eastern Poland

http://felsztyn.tripod.com/id17.html

#55

“Poland’s Home Army attacked Ukrainains. Poles wanted to remain occupants in so-called Kresy, Ukrainain and Belarusian ethnic territories, after the German defeat. Fortunately, Polish Home Army was kicked out of Ukraine by local nationalist units.”

Here’s your link to location traveled by Polish when granted amnesy.

http://www.rymaszewski.iinet.net.au/6escape.html

Please give a link to where Poland attacked Ukraine, unless you are referring to 1944 when they went in after Soviets.

http://www.pacwashmetrodiv.org/projects/ejszyszki/ejszyszki.doc

Or this:

GENOCIDE COMMITTED BY UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS
ON THE POLISH POPULATION OF VOLHYNIA
DURING WORLD WAR II (1939-1945)

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm

#56

Do I get you right that you did not read the page I linked to in my post #46? [b]This one[/b].
If not, I wonder why not? Do you understand what “The Institute for National Remembrence” is, right?

Here I done a little work for you:

year book        books                             
[u]  issued  [/u]   [u]    title                       [/u]    [u]      author         [/u]  

  [b]1994 [/b]      "Deportation and Exile: Poles        Keith Sword
              in the Soviet Union, 1939-1948"     

  [b]1958[/b]       "Allied Wartime Diplomacy:           Edward J. Rozek
              A Pattern in Poland"

  [b]1987[/b]       "Losy Polakow w ZSRR w               Julian Siedlecki
               latach 1939-1986"

  [b]1954[/b]        Polish newspaper in France

Note when those books are published. And you can imaging that the sources used for these books are even more dated.
You see, the 1,7 million is a folklore number. It is a product of poeple’s talk. There were no access to the archives, no documents available so the only way people could put an estimate on it is by talking about it. And when talking about bad scary things people tend to exaggerate.
As one of Karta Center report states:

http://www.indeks.karta.org.pl/represje_sowieckie_5.html
All the earlier historical translations (mosly written by emigration) were based on the relatively limited knowledge - mainly estimation made by polish representatives in USSR in 1941 - 43 and memories and stories from the repressed (people who were jailed in the work camps, and deported). Some polish historians tell still about the same estimates of 1,5 - 2 million the repressed people in USRR and under Russian occupation after 1939. The real numbers based on the actual knowledge are much lower than those estimated. The next update of that report that was published in April 2000 under the auspices of Polish Ministry of Justice summarizes all the verified data about the polish losses in the East. It is the current picture of the level of the knowledge we have about the Russian repressions.

Here is one of the previous discussions on this subject in our forum:
What was the reason for Deporting Poles and other ethnic groups from Eastern Poland?

In there you can find translation from Polish kindly provided by our fellow member Kovalski.
Here it is: http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?p=107959#post107959
I advise you to read it.

#57

Here’s your link to location traveled by Polish when granted amnesy.

It concerned only some very small proportion of former AK members in Poland and not in Ukraine.

Please give a link to where Poland attacked Ukraine, unless you are referring to 1944 when they went in after Soviets.

The official Polish government conducted “Pacification”, the campaign of terror and murders against Ukrainians in so-called Kresy throughout 1930s

According to Ukrainian estimates, the AK killed as many as 20,000 Ukrainian civilians in Volhynia. In fact Ukrainian nationalists saved the local Ukrainian population from AK ethnic cleansings. After the deserting of the local German police manned by Ukrainians, Germans formed new police forces from local Poles to attack Ukrainians.

Not to mention ethnic cleansings of Ukrainians organized by the new Polish government in modern north-eastern Poland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wisła

GENOCIDE COMMITTED BY UKRAINIAN NATIONALISTS
ON THE POLISH POPULATION OF VOLHYNIA
DURING WORLD WAR II (1939-1945)

http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/english.htm

Some genocide of Poles in Volyn is not officially recognized by Poland or by any other state in the world. So the usage of the word “genocide” does not make any sense.

#58

Poland has meet with Ukraine and although research has been done by Poland they are waiting for Ukraine to do the same. Ukraine said they will say sorry after they do research. Yes IMO it was a “genocide” and will be shown as such in the future.

#59

What a nuisence!

At the 60th anniversary of the events in Volyn the parliaments of both countries issued a joint statement in which those events were identified as interethnic conflict. The official Polish side has never mentioned the word “genocide” or claimed it would try to describe these events as the genocide of Poles in future.

#60

I think killing was one thing but this artical and Russia’s cold comments are over the top. How dare they suggest “Poles have a complex”. I would love to know what the “cure” for this is as I will make a mint selling it?

Carol
“Poles simply have a complex and they should get cured”
FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Putin’s aide - Poles suffer from Katyn complex

Created: 13.05.2008 12:31

An aid to Vladimir Putin, Professor Sergei Karaganov, believes Poles should get rid of their ‘Katyn massacre complex’.

Professor Karaganov has told a press conference that unofficially, Russia apologised to Poland for the Katyn massacre a long time ago, writes Gazeta Wyborcza daily.

Karaganov said that Moscow refused to issue an official apology, as it believes Poland would demand reparations and compensation from Russia if it did so.

‘As far as I know, the documents were revealed a long time ago. Poles simply have a complex and they should get cured. We do admit that it was Stalin who killed [them]. Putin apologised for that and I do not quite understand why. Russians suffered because of Stalin, too. President Jeltsin’s parents died in the same way’, Karaganov told the press.

Professor Karaganov added that hypothetically, Russia could also demand reparations from Poland for the invasion of Moscow by Napoleon’s army.

The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyń Forest massacre, was a mass execution of Polish citizens ordered by Soviet authorities on March 5, 1940. The estimated number of victims is about 22,000. (mj)
http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/foreign-affairs/?id=82286