Hmm, sorry Kato 
accidently jumped to the wrong conclusion after your input.
Chevan, do you really compare the european union with the zarist and later soviet and now russian attempt to excert control over an area that is none of their business just because parts of the population are speaking a language that has some familiarity with russian?
It is very simple- coz this is the native Serbs land where still stay a lot of the sacred places, churhces and ets.
And I do not think that Kosovars so bad.But this is a FACT they are alien in this land.They have come relatively recently, sure they have A FULL right to be the equal to the Serbs- thay should have its representatives in gov.
But to separate the part of the Serbs land this is danger extremism.
Also, I would ask: if the Kosovans are as bad as you claim, what is it that has driven them to become the way they are? Usually, these actions, as you describe, are those of an oppressed people - are they not?
Well let’s use the other way of thinking.
As we know many Ireland had immigrated into USA so does it mean they were oppressed people in Britain?
And if they ware opressed coz some of them actually took part in IRA- Is it the real reason to separate the Notern Ireland from Britain?
Had your british gov agreed to separate the Britain during the 1970-80 when IRA actively fought with the Britis police and killed even the civiliance?
No.
Besides the Britian even had sended the Army and fleet at the lillte Malvinas Island to protect it and SAVED it FOR Britain.
So do you really think that you Brits have right to protect YOUR land ( Even if the separatists like Ireland lived here from the ancient times) but the Serbs have NO RIGHT to protect their land fro?
This s a question…
We in England like to romanticise about Robin Hood, but those that he was against would have described he and his merry band in a similar manner as you describe the Kosovans.
Yea Robin Hood was my favorite hero when was a kid.
As i remember he robbered the richs and defended the poorest.
But sorry Bravo - i doubt he did something simular like the Kosovars extremists ( i mean the ethnic cleaning and mass murdering of the Ortodoxy Christians)
Would people without access to power usually turn to criminal acts (for the law is there to protect property from the mob) or rebellion, look at the Russian revolution, it’s all there.
So you want to say if the any criminals who has no access to power nevertheless HAS the right to steal the peace of Country where he was judged , and declare the independence?
And BTW the Russian “revolution” HAD the foreign sponsors
No, i do not compare.
Coz it existed in different times.
Bu if to look at history- remind me please what was the reason to join the Austria and Chehoslovakia to the Germany in the 1938 except “the population are speaking a language that has some familiarity to the GErmans”?
It seem the Hitler told something about “UNION of Germans tribes”?
So did the famular language roots had no sense for the GErmans in past?
And BTW the idea of panslavinism has NO relation to the Behavour of Russia to protect HIS ALLY Serbia.
Coz they have no other ally.Everybody agains them.But they EQUAL right for defence though.
Well, Bohamia (and other areas like Danzig) was taken away from Germany despite a majority german population in Versailles, not really the same relation that Russia has to Serbia. And the german dualism is actually a completely different story, but coincidentally the austrians voted to join Germany in a democratic election in 1919. The democracy defending winners didn’t like that choice and made their own. If it hadn’t been for those bitches the habsburgs and the hohenzollern, we would’ve been one nationstate in the modern sense since 1848 at the latest anyway. The nation in its cultural sense of community existed since the 15th century and de Jure it existed since the 10th century as the holy roman empire of the german nation including all of the aforementioned areas.
Nevertheless the annexation of the rest of czechoslovakia (late 1938) was a despicable act which is pretty much historical consensus, they were different folks with the right to do their own thing.
If familiar language roots had any meaning germany could claim the netherlands, switzerland, luxemburg, great britain, the us, australia and all of scandinavia (minus finland) as their natural habitat and area of influence, which is obviously bollocks. Nevertheless the russians used that excuse through their entire history to meddle in other peoples affairs, guess the ukrainians, the baltics etc. would agree.
About ww1: Russia protected a government and a country which supported and protected a terrorist cell which murdered the heir to the throne of another country within the borders of that other country. Serbia sounds pretty much like Afghanistan of the early 20th century to me.
Do you really think that THE reason for WWI was the assasination in Sarajevo?
The British have been guilty of many wrong doings htroughout their history - ask any ozzy. Yes many of the Irish, and the Scots, emigrated to the US in sear ch of a better life than they could hope for in Britain, and many were transported to the land of OZ for simply stealing a piece of bread (others were hung).
Now, your final comment is the crux of it, for me. I agree entirely with your comments on criminal elements, and that pretty much sums up the opposing para-military groups in Ulster, supposed champions of the people they represent. The criminals must not be allowed to usurp the power of the government and the people. However, in your earlier posts, your comments were not directed at criminal elements but at the Albanian, muslim Kosovans as a whole. If this is not so, then please forgive me as this was my understanding of what you were saying.
We are all Nationalists to some degree, we love our countries and our cultures. Some of us are more passionate about it than others - take RS for example - but where does one draw the demarkation line between Nationalism and Supra-nationalism?..it’s a dangerous game.
I served in Ulster during the early and, arguably, most violent years. Yet, I met many wonderful people on both sides, and found myself mystified by the hate that some had for ‘the other side’. If they had put so much energy into making the country a better place to live instead of fighting for power, they would have achieved something great - but the criminal elements, nor those that held power, didn’t want this - what a waste.
WW1 could possibly have happened anyway, the assassination was the trigger, though. But if russia had kept his nose out of an affair that was none of their business it wouldn’t have happened there and then.
As a rule, the ones that were hanged weren’t transported.
I don’t think you’ll find much desire to complain about ancient events involving Britain here (apart from the Bodyline Series, which shows what cads the Poms are and what a prick Jardine was ;)), apart from the indigenous people who have a different experience since British settlement and later Australian development.
If you compare Britain’s colonial and penal policies, and social circumstances which led to the penal policies, with other European nations at the time, Britain was quite benevolent compared with pre-revolutionary and revolutionary France during the initial period of settlement in Oz, and even the penal policies in, for example, Spain which didn’t have revolutionary upsets.
What is conveniently forgotten, or ignored, is that penal transportation from Britain was originally to what is now the U.S., and early American economic development was very much dependent upon it.
The loss of the American colonies forced Britain to find another destination for its convicts, which turned out to be Australia.
The loss of British convict labour encouraged America to increase its reliance on African slaves.
And what has this to do with Kosovo?
Nothing, except to demonstrate that tracing historical ‘rights’ and ‘causes’, in any sense of cause, is rarely as clear and simple as the advocates for any group would have us believe, because everything is related to something else and those who are seen as present problems are often the victims of a past they didn’t, and couldn’t, control.
Not unlike the inhabitants of supposedly Russian Vladivostok, which has a Slavic heritage only about twice as long as that of the Kosovars in Serbia. So what’s Russia’s entitlement to this warm water port which hosts its Pacific Fleet?
We are all Nationalists to some degree, we love our countries and our cultures. Some of us are more passionate about it than others - take RS for example
Nah, mate, not me.
I’m a real Aussie.
I don’t even know more than the first word of the current national anthem, which is Australia. Or possibly Australians. Or maybe Austria. Or Ostriches. Something like that, anyway. I think this is close to the correct version, but my kids tell me there’s a line “And honey is made by bees”, which is missing.
"Australians all own ostriches
Four minus one is three,
With olden royals, we’re fair and loyal,
Our home is dirt by sea.
I learned to bounce on nature strips
In booties stitched with care.
In mystery’s haze let’s harvest maize
And plant azaleas there.
Enjoy full trains and let us in
And dance Australia, Yeah!"
I grew up in an era when every movie was preceded by the national anthem, being God Save the Queen, and the screen showed Liz poncing about (?sidesaddle) on a horse with a tall wombat on her head. We all stood up, to worship the wombat.
I think they were known as indentured labour, but I don’t understand what teeth had to do with it?
Similarly, indentured labourers from India kept the Carribbean sugar plantations ticking over after the abolition of slavery.
By the way, have you read The Fatal Shore and, if so, would you recommend it?
If they had teeth, they ended up doing labour?
And if they didn’t have teeth, they ended doing other labour?
Similarly, indentured labourers from India kept the Carribbean sugar plantations ticking over after the abolition of slavery.
Yeah, well, the abolition of slavery so far as the British realm was concerned was a bit of a smoke and mirrors exercise.
Down here we were blackbirding for years after the abolition, but of course there was no slavery involved. :rolleyes: And, as Gomer Pyle would say, Surprise! Surprise! it was the sugar industry that used them here too. http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1197807.htm
By the way, have you read The Fatal Shore and, if so, would you recommend it?
I’d like to make out like I’m a pipe-smoking, leather-elbowed, Harris tweed with velvet collar sports jacket intellectual who’s read every important work on everything, but it was a very big book and I tried to read it on holidays a year or two apart. I doubt I got a hundred pages into it, either time.
It’s undoubtedly a great work, and worth reading, but so are Dostoesvsky and Tolstoy, if you have a couple of lifetimes to spare. (P.S. I actually read Crime and Punishment from start to finish, and what seem to be the introductory chapters of War and Peace, which alone constitute a novella.)
The demography of the Federal Republic of Germany is monitored by the “Statistisches Bundesamt” (Federal Statistical Office of Germany). The population of Germany is approximately 82,468,000, making it the 14th most populous country in the world. Germany’s population is characterized by declining growth [1], with an aging population and smaller cohort of youths.
There are more than 16 million people of non-German descent (first and second generation, including mixed heritage), about seven million of which are foreign residents. Germany has been a prime destination for refugees from many developing countries.
Are you going to deny the fact that the creation of enclaves with predominatly Mouslim population in different areas of Germany have nothing to do with reality? Perhaps you are lagging behind France in this issue but not that far behind.
Our times of ethnic cleansings are a thing of the past and the muslims enjoy the same rights as everyone else in germany so I can’t really see the threat of secession. The birthrate of the muslims is indeed larger atm but the largest birthrate is actually that of the Hindus, so maybe I should be afraid that I won’t be allowed to eat a steak in 30 or 40 years :mrgreen:
Well, it’s evidently the way Yugoslavian authorities thought when allowed the massive emigration of Albanians to purely Serbian Kosovo 50 years ago. Do you think there were no mosques in Kosovo, the houses where Albanians lived were
worse than the ones of Serbs or the incomes of families differ depending on its ethnical backgrounds? Nothing of the sort.
The pretences of Albanians consistsed in the official recognition of the Albanian language, more political power etc.
So if you want “to eat a steak in 30 or 40 years” you 'd better start learning Oriental languages, though considering the destiny of Serbs in Kosovo it will be of little help.
Posted by Drake
As Nickdfresh has put it, the serbs had it coming. And the world would be a better place if you russians hadn’t always backed the serbs in their wrongdoings because of an idiotic concept like panslavism.
The last time when the Russian state (alongside with Frace and Britain) supported Serbia was just at the beginning of WWI. Afterwards the relations between the USSR and Yugoslavia were rather cold and sometimes even tense. In the 1990s the Russian support of Serbs was made up of a few hundreds of volonteers while a certain number of Russians joined Croats. The figures mentioned in Mass Medias shows that there were more Greeks, Bulgarians and Romanians fighting on behalf of Serbs than Russians. So Mr Drake you can accuse Greeks, Bulgarians and Romanians of the support of Serbs in wrongdoings ( conducted by all the sides of the conflicts) rather than Russians
Right, things like politcal pressure and vetos in the UN security council don’t really count as support.
It is formal support in the UN just for domestic propaganda purposes in order to “keep face”. No one cares for the UN nowadays.
Could you specify what you mean by saying “politcal pressure”? Moscow is cuttig off its gas and oil supply for the EU and the NATO states? Or it is forming Serbian insurgency in Kosovo and terrorist groups to attack those states that are ready to admit the independence of Kosovo?
The fact is that the palpable support of the Russian state to Serbs was zero in the 1990s as well as it is now. A few hundreds of Russian volonteers came to fight on their own without any participation of the official Moscow and that was all.
According to the study of the German ministry of interior affairs 40% of Mouslims in Germany already support the ideals of Islamic foundamentalists
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,524486,00.html
From: Rambouillet - Imperialism in Disguise, TFF PressInfo 55, February 16, 1999
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“Read the so-called Kosovo Peace Agreement being discussed these very hours in Paris and you are in for a few surprises … I do not think that any recognised, sovereign state would accept all the civilian provisions and the military implementation on its territory of a plan like this. No state likes to receive “sign or be bombed” ultimatums __ particularly not when the said plan implies the de facto end of its status as a sovereign state with territorial integrity.”
"Chapter 7, the Military Implementation of the Agreement, is most interesting. […] Did you know, for instance, that the Agreement does not mention the word KLA? That it makes NATO the highest military authority on that territory of sovereign Yugoslavia? That FRY is barred from defining its border defence, and that KLA’s demilitarisation is not defined in the agreement?
From: Read the Civilian Kosovo Agreement!, TFF PressInfo 57, March 17, 1999.
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“When a black-and-white image of the parties has been established, media promote the view that there is a good' violence combating an evil’ violence. The West’s moral justification was that, over one year, 2000 people had been killed, 250.000 people displaced and that 45 people were killed in Racak. After three weeks of bombing, at least 350 civilians have been killed, an additional 500.000 have fled and NATO remains `determined’ to reduce the welfare of 8-10 million Yugoslavia citizens for years.”
From: The Information War About Kosovo, TFF PressInfo 62, April 15, 1999
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“The US and the West has no qualms by being allied with what the US envoy, Robert Gelbard, in early 1998 called a terrorist organisation, namely the KLA or UCK. It has built its military capacity on weapons, ammunition and training supplied by various Western sources; it has been given political legitimacy in Rambouillet through the embrace of the US and UK; it has served as NATO’s ally on the ground during the bombardments.”
From: Some Ethical Aspects on NATO’s Intervention in Kosovo, Part A. TFF PressInfo 73, July 14, 1999
There’s something to that.
The place might just be an insoluble problem. It’s not just about Serbia, but Macedonia and various other elements all claiming historical and linguistic roots and rights to screw over whoever happens to be there, or next door, or up the road somewhere, at the moment.
Perhaps God (the Christian one, and specifically the Catholic one not the Protestant one, and definitely not the Moslem one that worries Kato so much) created the Balkans to make the Irish seem balanced and rational.
Those 40% have a fundamental orientation, like those dudes in the bible belt who say evolution is nuts. That’s quite a bit different from killing disbelievers in skyscrapers. And as I live in a community with 30% turks I know what I’m talking about, we get along quite well. They build their homes, send their kids to school, sooner or later they’ll finally come to have islam lessons in school just like they have catholic and protestant lessons now. It’s a learning process. Of course there’s a proportion of potentially violent idiots, but I guess that’s about the same proportion like those in the german society who are still national socialist in their views and willling to be violent. I regularly play cards with a friend of mine who happens to be a turkish muslim (theoretically at least, like I am theoretically protestant). The vast majority just live their lives and adopt and of course they influence the whole society to an extent. There are always losers of the society and we have to address the problem before it really becomes one, but it happens all along the way. The majority of immigrants wasn’t muslim anyway, only about 20% were.
Those who kill disbelievers in skyscrapers have the same fundamental orientation.
As to modern Christian fundamentalists you are right. They never go far than spiritless twaddling on evolution, social and family issues.
And as I live in a community with 30% turks I know what I’m talking about, we get along quite well. They build their homes, send their kids to school, sooner or later they’ll finally come to have islam lessons in school just like they have catholic and protestant lessons now. It’s a learning process.
Yeah, you just hope that Islam in Europe will get diluted, lose its bellicose essence and become a sort of asylum for weak persons who have bad luck in life as it happened with Christianity.
Originally Posted by Drake
Of course there’s a proportion of potentially violent idiots, but I guess that’s about the same proportion like those in the german society who are still national socialist in their views and willling to be violent.
Well, I also think your national socialist play the role of “idiots” unlike Islamists.
Modern national socialist parties and groups in Germany teem with police agents and spies especially at higher levels of their hierachy to the extent that one may conclude that they are the branch offices of the German police.
Security services simply use such organization in order to control individuals that potentially pose a threat, decrease the efficiency of their activities etc. It is much easier to do when such organizations are legal and not underground.
The case with your Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands - NPD is very vivid.
In 2003, the federal government, the Bundestag, and the Bundesrat jointly attempted to ban the NPD in a trial before the Federal Constitutional Court, the Bundesverfassungsgericht, the highest court in Germany with the exclusive power to ban parties if they are found to be “anti-constitutional.” However, the case was thrown out when it was discovered that a large percentage of the NPD’s inner circle were in fact undercover agents or informants of the German secret services, like the federal Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz. They include a former deputy chairman of the party and author of an anti-Semitic tract that formed a central part of the government’s case. A number of other intelligence services’ agents remain undetected. Since the government assemblies were unwilling to fully disclose their agents’ identities and activities, the court found it impossible to decide which moves by the party were based on genuine party decisions and which were controlled by the secret services in an attempt to further the ban. “The party was, in part, responding to the government’s dictates” the court said. “The presence of the state at the leadership level makes influence on its aims and activities unavoidable,” it concluded. [11]
Horst Mahler (NPD), a former member of the far left terrorist organisation Red Army Faction, defended the NPD before the court.