Liberators or invaders?

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#21

You’re missing the point Sneaksie. No one here question the value of liberation by Red Army inmates from nazi camps in 1944 and 1945.
The main topic of this discussion is that because USSR was acting as invader in 1939 and 1940 and annecting large part of Poland, Romania, Baltic countries and Finland then this image of an aggressor remained in 1944/45.

I repeat again - By signing Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and dividing Europe, Stalin made WWII possible.
WWII not started 22 of June 1941 but 1 of September 1939.
From 17 of September 1939 until 22 of June 1941, USSR was in close alliance with nazi Germany, helping Germans to conquer western Europe.
In the same time USSR, either through diplomatic pressure - Romania or normal military aggression - Baltic states and Finland - enlarged it’s sphere of interest and territorial gains.

Population of countries affected by USSR expansion still remembered those events when Red Army started to liberate them in mid 1944.
One fact is interesting. When RKKA or Red Army invaded Polish territories 17 of September 1939, soldiers were behaving reasonably quiet.
After cessation of sporadic fighting with Polish troops situation was calm.
Liberation or second occupation of these lands in 1944 was accompanied by widespread rapes of women of any nationality - doesn’t matter Russian, Belorussian, Ukrainian or Pole, looting of property and wild drinking parties.

Why this change? It mean that aggressors were somewhat nicer than liberators. Can you explain this?

And Sneaksie, Russian Empire and later USSR from early 19-th century had constant urge to liberate nations of Europe. I don’t want to mention Poland anymore but the latest liberation achievements were Budapest 1956 and Prague 1968.
Russian Federation is unhappy with expansion of NATO and things like Romanian access to European Union, democratic elections in Ukraine make comrad Putin also unhappy.
Why all this?
Cannot you understand that Eastern and Central European countries don’t want your liberations anymore? I guess that in most of these countries just clean up of soviet mess will take more than 50 years.
I’m not talking about real mess and contamination in former Red Army military bases. Contamination in form of cultural and architectural intrusions is severe and hard to fix. In the middle of Warsaw sits one of the ugliest buildings in Europe - Palace of Culture & Science named after Josif Vissarionovich Stalin.
It is gift from USSR. No one ever liked it…Unfortunately Poles can’t return it. They paid for that gift anyway.
There are places in Poland which were not on the maps for 45 years. Former soviet secret bases. In some of them like airfields, everyday for 45 years soviet mechanics released aviation fuel just straight on the ground. Destruction of ecosystem is devastating and irreparable.

I can risk statement that Eastern Europe just can’t afford any more socialist experiments - either black or red and any more liberations. It is bad dream that Red Army will go “hunting for watches again”; what they would hunt this
time? Laptops, mobiles?

Lancer44

#22

Maybe it’s you who should read HISTORY, and not some polish-written popular fantasy? Especially “Wprost” reference made me laugh. Try serious authors (Western, of course) for a refreshing change. Excuse me, but this is bullshit. Poland could have plans for evacuation to Mars with same result. I repeat, Allies didn’t have any real plan of assisting Poland, all the Polish were planning was defence until big good democratic friends arrive - and they didn’t have nor plans nor intention to arrive. Rydz-Smygly may had any plans, but they were in the same realm of not-so-science fiction as well as his pre-war plans. Of course it’s always easier to blame USSR and tell yourself that if not USSR, Poland would survive.

Lancer44

I repeat again - By signing Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact and dividing Europe, Stalin made WWII possible.

Chamberlain sold Chekhoslovakia to Germany AND POLAND. Poland happily took place in aggressor’s moves by taking part of Chekhoslovakia and trying to take part of Lithuania. Who made WWII possible, eh? Made it was some pole? Or some british gentleman? Should i continue?
By signing Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact Stalin made future German-Soviet border further to the west. Had he refused it, the result would be the same (or do you have your doubts about Germany defeating Poland single-handedly? I don’t), but German forces would be much closer.

Liberation or second occupation of these lands in 1944 was accompanied by widespread rapes of women of any nationality - doesn’t matter Russian, Belorussian, Ukrainian or Pole, looting of property and wild drinking parties.

Lie. Prove the mass-raping. Raping in RA was punished by death. There are documents telling of soldiers executed for this, each was court-martialed. Similar tales about RA raped millions of german women are complete bullshit, based on nothing. Zero real evidence.

And Sneaksie, Russian Empire and later USSR from early 19-th century had constant urge to liberate nations of Europe.

Yes. After 1812, they liberated nations of Europe, defeating Napoleon. Russian army was in Paris. Another our mistake, sorry.

Russian Federation is unhappy with expansion of NATO and things like Romanian access to European Union, democratic elections in Ukraine make comrad Putin also unhappy.
Why all this?

Yes we are unhappy with expansion of NATO. Romanian access to EU? Nope, EU is not NATO, you know.
Why we are unhappy? Because entire NATO was made as anti-USSR MILITARY ALLIANCE. Now it’s anti-Russia MILITARY alliance. You still don’t understand why are not happy with expansion of NATO?
Elections in Ukraine weren’t democratic, and roughly 50% of ukrainians are understood it. There are nation-wide protests against current ruler and, especially, american or NATO forces on Ukrainian soil. Currently GIs are being kicked from Crimea by people’s protests and demonstrations.
‘Comrade Putin?’ Ha-ha. He is Mr. Putin for you. I suppose you imagine present Russia as authoritarian country, but it isn’t. Propaganda in mass-media is actully opposite to Putin, funded by western organisations. There are several TV channels and newspapers telling of ‘anti-democratic regime’. I think if it was anti-democratic, there were no such channels or newspapers:)

Cannot you understand that Eastern and Central European countries don’t want your liberations anymore?

I understand it very, very well. Can you imagine what feelings russians have now for Poland? For Baltic states with their Waffen-SS veteran parades and prohibiting Red Army veteran parades? For defilement of RA tombs and memorials? Don’t worry, they are on their own now. Comletely. They will get zero help from barbaric russians.
You know, the most amusing thing for me is that people which admire RA, keep russian tombs in order, etc. are … Germans. They visiting german tombs in Russia (our veterans were against them at start, but they ) and pay respects for our fallen as for theirs. I respect them for this.

It is bad dream that Red Army will go “hunting for watches again”; what they would hunt this
time? Laptops, mobiles?

I see you imagine Red Army as band of bandits… There is Russian Army now, and russians have their own mobiles. No one is planning to go to Australia to fetch yours, you can sleep safely. Don’t be afraid.

#23

Здорово , дружище!!!
Представляешь, до чего дописались некоторые “польские патриоты”
…the best choice for Poland in 1939 was to stick to Hitler and go on Moscow with him (!!!)
не бросай эту ветку. Я уже запарился отбиваться от них в одиночку.

#24

Здорово! Ты с ними слишком деликатно общался, я смотрю:)
Надо сюда народ с militera.lib.ru позвать, кто по-английски писать умеет. Я в основном там зависаю. Кстати, из какого фильма у тебя такой классный аватар в подписи?

#25

Так ведь хотелось по-хорошему, люди здесь со всего мира.
Но у поляков здесь похоже клиника.
А я на форуме inosmi.ru обитаю. Ты мне идею кстати, подкинул насчет позвать кого-нибудь.
А видео из нашего старого телевизионного фильма-трилогии “Освобождение” из части где про Курскую дугу.

#26

Thanks a lot for this sentence Sneaksie. Saying this, you just proved that Red Army was 99.99% homosexual… Do you really think like that?

Even Americans have a guts to admit that their GIs were raping on Okinava, that their soldiers shot German POWs, that most of Jap soldiers were killed before they had even a chance to become POWs.
Polish historians openly admitting that our 1-st Armoured shot more than a thousand Germand near Chambois.

You Russians don’t want to admit anything. For you Stalin is still god.
Strange…

Another excellent explanation… Thanks!
I don’t need to explain anything.

I understand - it should work like that.
I can just add that looking at Russian excavations of graves, tanks and all military hardware, I see sometimes unexpected signs of respect - some flowers on unearthed German Pz-III. Very nice…
Sometimes young “archeologists” have no respect at all. Same thing in Poland too.

My father was WWII vet, 1939 in Poland, than Siberia, North Africa, Italy.
He told me that they sot many SS-man. Later in his life he learned to distinguish between SS and Waffen SS. He passed away, but he told me about his doubts about some captured young Germans from Waffen SS.

You should also understand Baltic states veterans. They are now in their own countries. Why allow parades of soviet occupants?

And yes, they just wish zero help from Russia… No more liberation…

Cheers,

Lancer44

#27

Da, da, delikatno. Znaczitsia narod s militera takij oczen umnyj?
Nu uvidim… Wpieriod rebiata.

#28

Chevan,

We still can talk and reach understanding and agreement. There was no point in talking sweet and not knowing where the dividing points are.
Now we know. Even in clinique people talk.

BTW - Osvobozdenije - is it possible to buy this movie on DVD?
I think Ozierov was director.
If yes, please let me know. I would like to see it again.

Cheers,

Lancer44

#29

Now you’re insulting?
There were rapes of course, and soldiers found guilty were executed. There were no mass raping by RA in any territory.
We don’t want to admit crimes we didn’t commit. Stalin was no god, he was harsh ruler who kicked the country from desolated agricultural state in 20s to industrialized superpower with atomic weaponry in 50s.

You should also understand Baltic states veterans. They are now in their own countries. Why allow parades of soviet occupants?

RA veterans are in their own countries too. Many soldiers from Latvia, etc. fought in RA with such valor, so they were awarded Golden Stars, become Heroes of Soviet Union. And now they have not rights to meet, while SS veterans have.
It is very interesting - you think that former SSmen parades are right thing, and former RA veterans parades are not. Enlighten me, why in Germany itself or Austria if you’ll ever try to participate in SS parade you’ll go straight to jail, and in Baltic states you are free to do as you please (if you’re against Russia, of course)?

Da, da, delikatno. Znaczitsia narod s militera takij oczen umnyj?
Nu uvidim… Wpieriod rebiata.

U vas est pretenzii k Chevanu? Schitaete chto on grubo otvechal?
Narod s militery vsyakyy, i vashi storonniki tozhe est. V lyubom sluchae, pora razbavit vash uyutny klub postradavshih ot russkih zverei polyakov i rumyn.

#30

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1930282/
But i don’t know about possibility of shipping to Australia.

#31

nice day, men
in my opinion according geopolitical situation in the Eastern Europe in the 1939 Poland should have a good trucks with Germany or Russia (the best way was freiendship with both countries)
but Poland contrived to quarelled with them.
Poland had an english and french openessed warranty and unpublic warranty from the USA.
but they turned out the false :cool:
you ve chosen your destiny yourself

#32

I mean Hitler regarded Danzig(Gdansk) as german sity, occupated by Poland.

Nothing to do with hate. There is no feelings in politics

really? Read “Main Kanpf” please. The hate against internal and external enemies was the basis of National-Socialism. Hitler despised poles as agressors. While it was benefit , he use poles.

…German occupation and massacre of 5 million people. (Officially 6 million - 5 from German and 1 from soviet hands). Most probably Polish Jews would survive too - look at Romanian Jews.

“…and 1 from soviet hands” its lie. SU soldiers or NKVD never killed poles so much. Remember about fate of 400 000 Hungarian jews in 1943-44. Im sure romanian jews would be next, if the Germany would have much time.

…Instead of pragmatic thinking, they stick to the ideals of democracy, humanity and honour…
It’s really funny, Lancer.
So you think that polish goverment was friendly (since 1934 till 1939) with Nazi German becouse had “ideals of democraty”. Strange ideals, wasn’t it.
And what ideals forced Poland to cupture the piece of Chechoslovakia in 1938? It was may be “ideals of exclusive polish honour”? Why did poles supprese with blood the national rebels in western parts of Ukrain (which were occupated by Poland till 1939). Of couse, it was the “spesial polish humanity”.
I don’n know what sort of “propoganda” do you pursue. Its may be call as “polish patriotism”. But as for me, its absolutly clearly who was to blame that ww2 became possible in 1939.

Well, why Finns were idiots too?

No , Lancer, just poles. Finns demonstrated vere pragmatic diplomacy. Althous Finland was the satellite of German, they didn’t help to Hiller capture the Leningrad and invade northern Russia. Finns deserved respect and liberty from Communism, becouse Stalin had no real reason to invade the Finland. Unlike Romanians and Hungarians bandits who together with germans made genocide in Ukraine and south Russia in 1941-43.

For you Chevan …
For me, Kovalski and majority of Poles…
Thats right reason, dear Lancer. We talk about nothing.

#33

Thanks a lot Sneaksie!
I will try to buy through this site.
I’m looking forward to see this movie. It’s not perfect, there is no perfect movie about the war, but a lot of good scenes and fantastic actors.
I really liked Vasilyi Schukchin. (Hell, how to write his surname in english…???).
Great actor!

Thanks,

Lancer44

P.S.

I go to see Australia - Brasil match right now. Than, probably I will answer you and Chevan tomorrow…
I think we are all on a good path - we know what to expect from each side.
I subjected you to the most extreme point of view from Polish side.
You responded and we still can talk. Not bad… Not bad at all.
It is a good start.
Beyond it is just complete extremism and… just imagine…

Cheers,

Lancer44

#34

Dear kragod,

Please read more about history before writing any post on any historical forum.
Poland had non-agression pact with both III-rd Reich and USSR.
In both cases, both signatories with cool blood invaded Poland.
Do you want to deny facts???

#35

Очень интересно. С какого числа “польские патриоты” предполагают возникновение любви между Польшей и Гитлером? Если с 31 августа 1939 года - можно прикинуть дальнейшие события. Но они однозначно не в пользу польско-фашисткого альянса.

#36

i know history in facts, including about bad role of the USA, France, England and Poland and how these countries launched the war
for except Poland denied a peaceful offering from German that were made since 1937 and whole 1939 up 1 september when the germany patience has finished.
the polish policy at hat time may be described as unpolish

but at now my english is not good so the accounting of facts is troubly for me :rolleyes:

#37

Hey hey! Watch your affirmation!!! I only bet that your school readings of communist history told you that.

  1. Why you didn’t say anything about Italians and Slovaks who joined Hungarians in the Army Group Center??

  2. Royal Romanian Army joined the Germans in the Army Group South from 22nd of June 1941 to 23rd of August 1944. The same Royal Romanian Army joined Red Army from 23rd of August 1944 to 9th of May 1945 (fighting in Romania, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Austria). How comes that Stalin allowed the “bandit, the bloody murderer” Royal Romanian Army to fight side by side with the “mighty” Red Army??

  3. The Order of Victory (Орден Победы) was the highest military decoration in the Soviet Union. Adopted in late 1943 was awarded 20 times to 13 leaders.

Only 5 foreign leaders were awarded: Eisenhower, Tito, Montgomery, Rola-Zymierski (Poland) and King Michael of Romania.

King Michael reigned twice: 20th of July 1927 to 8th of June 1930 (a regency functioned) and 6th of September 1940 to 30th of December 1947 (forced to abdicate by the communists).

Note my bold! On 22nd of June 1941 when Romania joined the war against Soviet Union King Michael was the Romanian leader. Between 1941-1943 (the timeframe proposed by you) the same King Michael was the Romanian leader. Impossible to believe that the leader of the “bandits” to be awarded by Stalin with the highest Soviet decoration. :slight_smile:
Q.E.D.

Now off-topic I’d say that all of us should calm down.

Cheers!

#38

Failure of the Winter War, my friend! Why for you Russian people the ww2 starts on 22nd of June 1941??? In fact I have to apologise: you didn’t call it World War 2 but Great Patriotic War (or something like that).

Why before 1941 all Soviet aggressions were justified???
Why Stalin invaded Finland??

Instead of saying: OK, it was a mistake. It just happened, as a mighty imperial power we just wanted more, most of the Russians says “All our actions were justified. All enemies as well as our allies (see British Empire and USA) were a bunch of bloody murderers”.

Eastern European countries didn’t wanted communism. End of story.

It is a pity that you Russian members started to post only here trying to defend a dead ideology instead of contributing in other interesting threads (here in Russian Military section).

#39

Dani, i watch my affirmation. May be you don’t know about “feats” of Romanians occupants in Odessa or Bessarabia. Lets refresh you memory.
I know you can read russians.
http://midrasha.net/lessons.php?art=1&id=671&mode=0&book=68&lang=1

“…Уже во время боев на территории Бессарабии и Северной Буковины и с началом оккупации этих районов немецкими и румынскими войсками, фашисты приступили к массовому истреблению евреев. Румынские военные и жандармские части при содействии айнзацгруппы «D» и местных жителей убили около 150000 евреев в течение июля-августа 1941 года. Это составляло половину довоенного местного еврейского населения. Геноцид сопровождался актами насилия и грабежа, уцелевших заключали в гетто и лагеря. Гетто были в городах Черновцы, Кишиневе и др.”

and about Odessa:
"Тому, что там происходило в первые же дни оккупации - в октябре 1941 года в Одессе, посвящены почти все воспоминания одесситов, касающиеся жизни при румынах.

  • В каждом из шести корпусов складов находилось до трех тысяч человек. Корпуса были набиты битком, а когда через окна начали лить горючее, люди пытались выбраться через окна. Но в них стреляли из пулеметов: видно было, как окна были изрешечены пулями. И румыны объяснили нам через переводчика, что там, кроме евреев, было процентов 10 других обреченных: моряки и партизаны. А про нас - участников захоронения - добавили, что мы тоже будем расстреляны. И лишь через шесть дней нас стали гонять на другие работы, пока многих не отправили в Румынию.

Давая показания Чрезвычайной комиссии по немецко - фашистским зверствам в Одессе и Одесской области, гражданка М. И. Бобкова рассказала:

  • Когда румыны заполнили советскими людьми девять пустых складских помещений, продолжала свой рассказ М. И. Бобкова, - тогда стали подкатывать к складам бочки с горючим. Я лично видела, как румыны насосами качали горючее из этих бочек и через шланги поливали склады, в которых находились согнанные ими жители города. Когда склады были облиты горючим, румынские солдаты их подожгли. Поднялся страшный крик. Женщины и дети, объятые пламенем, кричали: « Спасите нас, не убивайте, не сжигайте!» Подожженные румынами склады продолжали гореть несколько дней. Когда пожар прекратился, румыны к месту пожара пригнали жителей города, которые выкопали большие рвы, длиною метров 100, шириною в 5-6 метров и глубиною около 3 метров каждая. Потом появились румынские солдаты, стаскивали обгоревшие трупы в эти вырытые ямы и закапывали…"

Well Dani, i could be think that my “school readings of communist history told that…” but unfortunately there are the many stiil alive peoples, who remember the burning alive peoples by Romanians in 1942-1943.
I know , you wery exellent finding in WEB, so you can search another sourses (not just your lovely Wikipedia)

#40

Becouse , dear Dani, its illness theme. I don’t defend a dead ideology. I just wish to be the principial when i see when sombody blame my ancestors in everything.
I take part in other threads.