Los Desaparecidos

[Panzerknacker]

The first Desaparecido:

Pedro Eugenio Aramburu Cilveti ([COLOR=black]May 21, 1903 – June 1, 1970) was a de facto president of Argentina from November 13, 1955 to May 1, 1958. He was kidnapped, “judged” and executed by the Montoneros guerrilla organization (the most extreme sector from the Peronism), in retaliation against the June 1956 Leon Suarez massacre and the execution of Juan José Valle.[/COLOR]
Born in [COLOR=black]Río Cuarto, Córdoba, he was one of the biggest exponents of the military sectors of 20th century Argentine society. His historical relevance was heightened by the fact that he confronted one of the biggest populist leaders in South America: Juan Domingo Perón.[/COLOR]
[ul]
[li]He studied in the Colegio Militar de la Nación [/li][li]1922: Sub-lieutenant [/li][li]1939: Major [/li][li]1943: Teacher in the Escuela de Guerra [/li][li]1951: Brigadier [/li][li]Director of the Escuela de Guerra [/li][li]1955: Chief Commander of the Army [/li][li]1958: Lieutenant general. [/ul][/li]After the first presidential succession (1958), Aramburu retired from military career and became part of Argentinian political life.
Then he ran for president in the elections of 1963, forming the political party “Union del Pueblo Argentino” (UDELPA, Union of the Argentine People), with an explicit slogan: “Vote UDELPA and HE won’t return” (“Vote UDELPA y no vuelve”), referring to Perón.
With Peronism prohibited, the Presidential elections proclaimed [COLOR=black]Arturo Umberto Illia as the new president, with the team of Pedro Eugenio Aramburu–Horacio Thedy winning only third place.[/COLOR]
Yet democracy was under military supervision, which maintained censorship of both Peronism and its leader. As a consequence of the fragile nature of the democratic process, Illia was quickly overthrown in 1966 by another military coup, led by General [COLOR=black]Juan Carlos Onganía.[/COLOR]
In all those 15 years, Pedro Eugenio Aramburu maintained a type of popularity, in newspapers and magazines. He was often consulted about his opinions on society and politics (especially in to the Gente magazine, representative of the high society of Argentina).
In 1970, he was even mentioned (again) as a possible Presidential successor.
Montoneros

In 1970 the rumours regarding [COLOR=black]Juan Domingo Perón’s return to Argentina grew daily. Still living in exile in Spain, his orders resonated stronger and stronger. At the same time, leftist ideologies grew in Argentina as in much of South America. The example of Che Guevara influenced a generation of students in schools and universities that widely supported international socialism.[/COLOR]
It was in this atmosphere that the [COLOR=black]Montoneros, led by Mario Alberto Firmenich were formed.[/COLOR]
It is possible that the Montoneros would not have had much social relevance had they not chosen such a resounding terrorist action, planning their first act of terror in the social-political life of Argentina. Their ambitious plan was the kidnapping and execution of former military president Pedro Eugenio Aramburu.
Death of Aramburu

On [COLOR=black]May 29, 1970 at noon, Aramburu was boldly kidnapped from the streets of [b]Buenos Aires[/b]. The disappearance of Aramburu kept the whole Argentinian society on tenterhooks for a month, before discovering that Aramburu had been murdered 3 days after his kidnapping, and that his corpse was left in a farm of the town of Timote, Carlos Tejedor, in the Buenos Aires.[/COLOR]
In the following months, official statements of the Montoneros flooded the media. Among other things they alleged historical reasons for their actions such as “the execution of 27 Peronist leaders after an unsuccessful Peronist rebellion in 1956”, known as the José León Suárez massacre.

[Rising_Sun]

I take it from Panzerknacker’s last post that the Dirty War had nothing to do with the Disappeared, as the guerillas took all of them, starting with Aramburu.

There’s a slight problem with that approach.

His body was found a month after being kidnapped.

The other Disappeared haven’t been found a quarter of a century later, which adds to the uncertainty and suffering of their loved ones.

I fail to see the point of presenting him as the first Disappeared.

[Panzerknacker]

The kidnapping of Aramburu is oftenly marked as the beginning of the dirty war, after this the people start to vanish and get killed from both ( big accent in both) sides of the table.

After this the Army and Navy security services began the secret ( and not so secret ) war.

[Rising_Sun]

@Panzerknacker

The kidnapping of Aramburu is oftenly marked as the beginning of the dirty war, after this the people start to vanish and get killed from both ( big accent in both) sides of the table.

After this the Army and Navy security services began the secret ( and not so secret ) war.

Sorry.

I didn’t know that.

Sometimes being a smartarse results in being bitten in one’s own arse.

[1000ydstare]

Unfortunatly RS, the “government” side had a penchant for throwing their “kidnappees” out of the back of low, or not so low flying Hercules. Usually over the South Atlantic. The chances of finding such victims is slim.

Regardless of who started it, the “Dirty War” waged by the Junta/Argentine government was completely and utterly wrong.

Two wrongs do NOT and will NEVER make a right.

I will concentrate on the government issues for now, whilst I brush up on the other side, but certainly the “dissappeared” would often include the family of the actual target. All would be liquidated after torture. Including children.

I beleive some of the children have reappeared in foster homes with little or no memory of their parents, particularly if they were babies when taken.

The Islanders of the Falklands, haveing lived in the area, would have been all to aware of what was happening on the mainland, esp because of the former good will and trade between the two. I am sure they were delighted that Mr Dowling and his bullies turned up with their list of undesirables… strange how most peoples lists of undesirables would probably include those thugs.

I find it strange that you have one group fighting for justice yet the very government who came in AFTER the junta has taken such public steps to defend them, even parden those convicted of crimes of such baseness.

[Panzerknacker]

I will concentrate on the government issues for now, whilst I brush up on the other side, but certainly the “dissappeared” would often include the family of the actual target. All would be liquidated after torture. Including children.

That is just one more of your usual lies about everything related with the Argentine military, none children was killed during the dirty war, the guerrillas fighters sons were adopted by the Military families or gave in adoption to other civilian parents.

[1000ydstare]

Now now Panzerknacker, we don’t want to get childish again.

I have stated that children were killed although I also point out that children were adopted out to other families.

So, my evidence.

@New York Times

World Briefing | Americas: Argentina: For ‘Dirty War’ Children
Published: March 13, 2004
Argentina will compensate children who were detained, stolen or born in captivity during the military dictatorship that ruled the country from 1976 to 1983, President Néstor Kirchner said. He asked them to forgive the state. The children stand to receive up to $75,000 each.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C05E1DF1E3EF930A25750C0A9629C8B63

If they are compensating the children, then they accept the responsibility.

@the wiki

Relatives of the victims uncovered evidence that some children taken from their mothers soon after birth were being raised as the adopted children of military men, as in the case of Silvia Quintela. For three decades, the Grand-Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, a group founded in 1977, has been demanding the return of these kidnapped children, estimated to number as many as five hundred. 77 of the kidnapped children have been located so far.

I am guessing you can not 100% prove that none of the remaining 423 kids (+/-) were killed in captivity?

@the wiki

Alicia Partnoy (b. 1955 in Bahía Blanca, Argentina) is an human rights activist, poet, and translator.

After Argentinian President Juan Peron died, the students from the left of the Peronist political party organized with fervor within the country’s universities and with workers, were persecuted and imprisoned. There was a military coup in 1976 and people began to disappear.Partnoy was one of those who suffered through the ordeals of becoming a political prisoner. Partnoy became an activist of the Peronist Youth Movement while attending Southern National University.

She was taken from her home and her two-year old daughter on January 12, 1977, by the Army and imprisoned at a concentration camp named The Little School (La Escuelita). For three and a half months, Partnoy was blindfolded. She was brutally beaten, starved, molested, and forced to live in inhumane conditions. She was moved from the concentration camp to the prison of Villa Floresta in Bahía Blanca where she stayed for six months only to be transferred to another jail. She spent a total of two and a half years as a prisoner of conscience, with no charges.

In 1979, she was forced to leave the country and moved to the USA where she was reunited with her daughter and her husband. In 1985, she told her story of what had happened to her at The Little School. The world began to open its eyes to the treatment of women in reference to the disappearances of Latin America.

Alicia Partnoy has testified before the United Nations, the Organization of American States, Amnesty International, and the Argentine Human Rights Commission. Her testimony is recorded in a compilation of testimonials by the National Commission for the Investigation of the Disappeared. She currently lives in Los Angeles, C.A. and teaches at Loyola Marymount University.
Retrieved from “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicia_Partnoy”

Delightful, or am I lieing again about your Armed Services, I actually know the distinction between the thugs who carried out these atrocities, those who serve with professionalism and those who were forced to serve and beaten by those who fall in to the thug group first mentioned.

@Marguerite Guzmán Bouvard

The security forces dragged away pregnant women. They kidnapped entire families and then tortured them in front of each other. People were taken from wheelchairs and hospital beds. One young woman was abducted while recovering from a serious operation on her spine and was encased in plaster from the waist to the knee. Hundreds of adolescents disappeared, and even the elderly and the very young were taken away. After their parents were disappeared, children were left with neighbors or left alone in their homes. The less fortunate were placed in detention centers for the children of the disappeared, in the custody of the Women’s Brigade of the provincial police. Those who had physical disabilities were murdered or left to perish.

http://www.iisg.nl/collections/dirtywar.php

Now given the treatment detailed above by Alicia Partnoy, how many of the pregnant womens children would have survived? Or would they have been miscarried? Almost definitly affected medically in some way by such treatment of their carrier (ie the Mother).

Or do you not classify them as children so that you can call ME a liar?

Also the “hundreds of adolescents” who disappeared, where are they? Now I am of the opinion that an adolescent is roughly a teenager, although the age brackets can shift depending on the culture involved. Argentina, in my opinion, could be grouped in to the same culture as the USA, thus adolescence is between 12 - 19 years old.

I am guessing that a 12 year old would not have been given out to some Junta crony for good behaviour, so where are these children?

[1000ydstare]

The following is from Amnisty International

@http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engamr130182002

AI Index: AMR 13/018/2002 1 December 2002
AMR 13/018/2002
ARGENTINA

The Rights of the Child in Argentina

Text of the submission by Amnesty International on its concerns regarding the Argentine Government’s application of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child

@The rights of the child in Argentina

Deaths of Children
Cases of deaths of children caused by members of the security forces in situations known as gatillo fácil, “trigger happy”, and in so-called confrontations may constitute extrajudicial executions. Children who are prepared to testify about incidents in which those apparently involved are members of the police have been the victims of reprisals including threats and death. Most of the information about these situations in the country has come from the media and, in the absence of official information from federal and most provincial authorities, non-governmental organizations have set up databases based on press reports or official complaints submitted by lawyers acting for the families. According to information provided by non-governmental organizations, during the first half of 200l 30% of killings by members of the police in so-called confrontations were of children. Among the little official data available for the year 2001, a report from the Ministry of Security for the Province of Buenos Aires showed that, as of 15 December 2001, a total of 33 children had died in so-called confrontations with the police.

A little off topic I know, as this is about kids being brassed up in 2000 onwards, not the 1970’s/'80s

@The rights of the child in Argentina

Alberto Barreto, whose 12-year-old daughter Gisella Barreto was killed in a police shooting in January 2000, has reportedly also been threatened and harassed by the police, and has been followed by a police patrol car on numerous occasions.

I would ask Panzerknacker, that you do not call me a liar, and accuse me of trying to get cheap points over your military on such a matter.

You will find, whilst I am prepared to banter all nations forces, including my own. When it comes to genocide I don’t have much of a sense of humour.

Something a few tours of the Balkans sorted out I am afraid. You may notice in my postings I tend to have more of a vitoral for those who are nothing more than bullies and thugs.

I will concede, however, that my post indicates that ALL of those taken for interrogation/torture were killed. This is not the case, and I apologise for posting what I know to be not the case.

Although, there is no need on YOUR part Panzerknacer to get all uppity about it. Your nations military did it, full stop. You even point it out in your post above, that it was your Army and Navy and not your Air Force that participated in such evil. There are no excuses nor reasoning to get away from it.

If you wish to establish equalibrium feel free to bring up any things that the British have done over the years that are as bad.

PS. If the kitchen is too hot, stay out of it.

[Panzerknacker]

You ve posted this. Dont blame me.

All would be liquidated after torture. Including children.

The other part is true but I would not comment the the links that have provided of Amnesty for 2 reasons.

1- Those did not belong to the topic discussed here. You as usual want to derail the topic.

2- Amnesty is a very politically charged institution, just look at any other every nation reviewed by Amnesty like UK, and USA, you ll see.

I find it strange that you have one group fighting for justice yet the very government who came in AFTER the junta has taken such public steps to defend them, even parden those convicted of crimes of such baseness.

And again you failed here.:rolleyes:

The goverment who came after the Junta jugded and convicted mostly of the Upper officers in charge of the illegal war between 1976-80.

That was the U.C.R party who rules the country between 12-1983 until 16-1989.

The goverment after this from the Peronist party gave a full pardon to some of the Military and guerrila involved in th year 1991.

It was not the same goverment.

Man …do some research before posting I am tired to correct you.

[1000ydstare]

Panzerknacker, in my post I have already admitted that that particular quote of mine was off target. So your bringing it back up achieves nothing other than to assuage or own delusions and sanctimosity.

WRT to your second quote, sorry it is you that is wrong. I didn’t know which party was in or out, and quite frankly didn’t care. The government I was referring to was not a specific government, as you mistakenly believe, but the government in general. ie the system of government that replaced the Junta system of government.

It is puzzleing that such brutes and thugs could be released by a democratic government after they had been convicted of such charges.

Man… I am sick to the back teeth of you not actually reading what is wrote/meant. Please ask for clarification in future if you require it.

[Panzerknacker]

Panzerknacker, in my post I have already admitted that that particular quote of mine was off target. So your bringing it back up achieves nothing other than to assuage or own delusions and sanctimosity.

Edit your post and I will edit the mine.

WRT to your second quote, sorry it is you that is wrong. I didn’t know which party was in or out, and quite frankly didn’t care.

If you dont know and dot care …what you posting about this ?, just give this space to someone who did know and care

The government I was referring to was not a specific government, as you mistakenly believe, but the government in general. ie the system of government that replaced the Junta system of government.

Every political party have own agenda.

Man… I am sick to the back teeth of you not actually reading what is wrote/meant. Please ask for clarification in future if you require it.

I do always and I will.

[1000ydstare]

Nope, not editing, the post stands with my explaination afterwards. There is no need to go around editing posts to mean what they no longer mean, or to erase the past for no real reason.

WRT not caring which party was in power, that is the point. The reference was to your countries government(s) after the Junta. To that end all of the specifics, ie their agenda, allegiances etc are irrelevant.

Whilst in some things the colour of hte party in power could be seen as important, ie in UK would a Labour government (Left of Centre) have faced down the miners strike as the Conservatives (Right of Centre) did? Would the UK Communist Party (Extreme Left) have handled it differently? What about the British National Party (Extreme Right)?

In this instance, I beleive the actions of the government, the specific party in power or not, transcend such pettyness.

The countries government allowed murderers and thugs to be protected by two of the strangest laws in the world, that fly against common sense and descency. Not only did they bring these laws in, though, they also then pardoned the few criminals they had convicted.

Under most systems of government there should be some sort of point where, if there is a fair minded and sensible incumbant, such laws can be stopped.

[Panzerknacker]

The countries government allowed murderers and thugs to be protected by two of the strangest laws in the world, that fly against common sense and descency. Not only did they bring these laws in, though, they also then pardoned the few criminals they had convicted.

Two were actually convicted to life imprisomente, Videla facto president between 1976-81 and the commander of the navy in the same period who teorically have some goverment prerrogatives , Massera.

But the last word ids not said.

Videla briefly returned to prison in 1998 when a judge found him guilty of kidnapping of minors during the Dirty War.

On September 6, 2006, Judge Norberto Oyarbide ruled that the pardon granted by Menem was unconstitutional, opening up the possibility of a trial. On April 25, 2007, a federal court struck down his presidential pardon and restored his human rights abuse convictions

To be completely honest the average citizen like me is not particulary worried about those guys, they did not present any treath to the country anymore.

Unfortunately many times the desaparecidos and assasinated people of of the Police, Army and Navy are completely forgotten, quite unfair. The families of the guerrillas fighter will have always the best part of the media coverage.

I would give the credit to Videla in having succeed to erradicated the 90 % of a Guerrilla who want to made a separated country like in Colombia…but he probably could do the same without so many inoccent victims.

[1000ydstare]

Whilst your average citizen are not worried by these guys, the country as a whole should be ensuring that these creatures are banged up and punished. If you don’t, then history could repet itself.

Hence the rules in Germany and Austria which make it illegal to deny the Holocaust, if the Holocaust or dirty war is allowed to be denied or in some how altered it could happen again.

[Rising_Sun]

@Panzerknacker

To be completely honest the average citizen like me is not particulary worried about those guys, they did not present any treath to the country anymore.

Neither did Eichmann present a threat to Jews any more when, instructively, he was kidnapped by Israel from his sanctuary in Argentina. He still deserved to be brought to account for his crimes.

Don’t you want people who committed crimes against your own citizens in the Dirty War, or any other event, brought to justice?

It beats me how you, and in your opinion Argentinians in general, can be so relaxed about not bringing to justice people who abused their power to kill your own citizens.

I am not saying this to be insulting, but I think your views reflect those of a people who have no experience of consistent and well-founded democratic government, and the principles of liberty and justice which underpin it. A nation with a recent history of violence and repressive government which denies liberty and justice to its people gets used to such abuses. They see small advances as large steps, when still they are a long way from achieving the same standards as people in more robust and established democracies.

I think also that the blindness to justice of Argentinians reflected by your views explains why you can be so determined to screw over the Falkland Islanders who have observed much better standards of government and justice than would have been, and seemingly still would be, imposed upon them under Argentinian rule. And why you are incapable of grasping the simple principle, so glaringly clear to anyone in the Western world, that the Falkland Islanders should be permitted to determine their own destiny.

[Gen_Sandworm]

@Rising_Sun

I am not saying this to be insulting, but I think your views reflect those of a people who have no experience of consistent and well-founded democratic government, and the principles of liberty and justice which underpin it. A nation with a recent history of violence and repressive government which denies liberty and justice to its people gets used to such abuses. They see small advances as large steps, when still they are a long way from achieving the same standards as people in more robust and established democracies.

Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt it after the F&M conflict that Argentina really became a Democracy? Point is they are still a very young one and with all things it takes time to adjust.

[Panzerknacker]

The democracy In Argentina really started in 1883 with the universal vote act. It was interrupted in 1930 and other times.

It beats me how you, and in your opinion Argentinians in general, can be so relaxed about not bringing to justice people who abused their power to kill your own citizens.

Many people think that they acted properly eliminating the leftist, that may explain . It was the guerrilla who attacked first the military and no otherwise.:rolleyes:

[Gen_Sandworm]

@Panzerknacker

The democracy In Argentina really started in 1883 with the universal vote act. It was interrupted in 1930 and other times.

Hate to go to off topic but the Modern Democracy you have today was formed after the conflict??? You can just PM me with the answer if you wish!

[Panzerknacker]

I dont fully understand your question, if you are asking if the real democracy began in 1983 the aswer is no. The real democracy was present before in Argentina but was interrupted several times.

[1000ydstare]

He means that the democracy that you live in today was only brought in after 1982. It probably doesn’t mirror the democracy of 1833 exactly, there will be some changes.

Likewise, the citizens will be different due to all the periods of non-democracy.

@Panzerknacker

Many people think that they acted properly eliminating the leftist, that may explain . It was the guerrilla who attacked first the military and no otherwise.

Whilst the actions of the leftists was completely wrong and should have been countered, I somehow don’t beleive the manner in which the operations were conducted was correct.

WHo attacked who is irrelevant.