You mean 1883.
And no is not the same, the women werent alllowed to vote in 1883, but they did so in 1948, so more or less is the same as in that year.
Whilst the actions of the leftists was completely wrong and should have been countered, I somehow don’t beleive the manner in which the operations were conducted was correct.
Well, obviously not. Those actions were not entirely correct since many people wich have nothing to do with Montoneros or the ERP were killed/arrested.
Well, obviously not. Those actions were not entirely correct since many people wich have nothing to do with Montoneros or the ERP were killed/arrested.[/QUOTE]My bold.
“Not entirely correct” ?
So taking people away from their homes then torturing/murdering them was a partially correct way of carrying on ?
Or only if the victims had had something* to do with the Montoneros or ERP ?
If those are REAL terrorist I have no problem. I think Israel have a law wich allowed the torture if the enemy is fanatic.
I guess that killing just 9,800, and only some of them not combatants, makes it alright then. Such a callous pro-Galtieri Dirty War era opinion certainly goes a long way to explaining your selective approach to this and other topics concerning the Falkands.
I find it most curious that you want to make a big issue out of a British soldier killing a mortally wounded Argetinian while you laugh off explanations about why it was a mericiful act but, when posts turn to comparisons with far, far worse Argentinian behaviour towards their own people you casually dismiss the killing by your army of 9,800 of your own people. And when comparisons turn to Argentinian behaviour towards your own troops, such as starving them to death and murdering them, you choose not to respond, which suggests either that you think it satisfactory or cannot justify it.
Should I infer from your contradictory positions on human rights that the Argentinian troops on the Falklands should be grateful that only some of them were starved and murdered by their own system and superiors, while the British soldier who did the burnt Argentinian soldier a favour is an inhuman brute unfit to meet the high moral standards of the Argentinian military?
Or should I infer that the one Argentinian soldier mercifully killed by the British soldier is worth considerably more than 9,800 of his countrymen killed by the same army, as their deaths don’t seem to cause you any concern. Any more than the Argentinian soldiers starved to death and murdered by their own Army seem to be worth a response from you.
You really need to take a few steps back and try to look at your position objectively.
The CO.NA.DE.P who was the comission who investigate about the human rights abuse was formed with people who really was in the other corner politically speaking from the Military. They carry out a long and exhaustive investigation.
So…if those people reach the 9800 of killed it must be true. It does not mean that the number of kidnapped of tortured could reach 30.000 or more but is the deaths that we are talking about.
I am have not to excuse since I am not the people who pull the trigger but if you asking me if I had or I would have any mercy with the guerrilla of Montoneros, the terrorist of E.R.P and Patria Libre , the answers is simple, no I wont because I have no simpathies with the people who want to make my beautiful country in the new Cuba or in country inside other like happen in Colombia.
I will stand up and applaude the Argentine Army for saving us of that bunch of scum.
However no, to eliminate that menace does not justify the murder of inocent people.
Excuse me by why need you to increase the victims of WAR in several times?To present the Argentinian army is the herd of monsters and killers?
Cheers.
Dont get tired Chevan :rolleyes: , let them believe wathever they like, if somebody want to believe that the Argentine army killed 35000 inocent civilian or 50000 or even better 250000 they can do it, if that make happy and bring confort to their little souls go for it…happiness is something hard to found in this days.
But I recomend that people please dont post that figures as a fact. thanks.
Well i can agree with you but…
I think you should agree that the Argentina is not the equal the Britain. The Argentinian social development is was far from the European in the 1970-80. This is the fact. And the situation inside the Argentina in 1976 when junta had come to the power is rather different from the European condition.
At that tme the social crisis in Argentine could bury the any democratu if the comunists or ultra-right nationalists took the power - in this case the scale i strongly doubt the victims were limited of 9 000 ( or even 30 000) . As you may be know both commi and nazy are not capable to kill the thousands - they OLNY killed a MILLIONS. ( as we know it from history ,right;))
Thus in this way the cruel action of Junta in 1976-1983 possibly saved the Argentin from the much more terrible civil catastrophe.
At the time of the Falklands war the Argentinian army was just different to Britain’s, in five main ways. First, the army was an extension of a military dictatorship. Second, the way their army treated their own civilians. Third, they way they treated their own soldiers. Fourth, they way they conducted the war. Fifth, the way they treated civilians in occupied territory.
I think the mean difference of behavoiur was that it was CIVIL wa for the Argentinian army (not for the Britain).
And let i tell you a litlle about about “own civilians” that were treated by the Argentinian army.
http://www.conflictologist.narod.ru/arg70.html
Genesis and the ideology of rebels.
In 1970 two main and most known Argentinean revolutionary organizations were formed. 28.7.70 was formed PRA - People’s revolutionary Army, headed by Roberto Santuchcho Mario, that posed the problem of throwing down servicemen, then who led the country, itself military branch RPW (revolutionary party of workers), created in 60th YERP and PRT they inspired including by ideas of Peruvian Marxist de la Torr, that joined the Trotskij’s 4 international. This insurgent motion was connected with Cuba.
Rebels in 1976-82 years.
During March 1976 Of Izabel Peron it was thrown down by military junta headed by General Jorge Videla. Even after death of Peron YERP it calculated by necessary to switch over to guerrilla warfare “on nature”, having an intention to create the freed zones in the village. So that the separation of the responsibilities was formed in them with another antigovernment organization: in the cities against the authorities acted “montoneros”, in the rural locality - YERP. Task in them was not of the light: at the moment of the beginning of the authorities of junta the army had authorized strength of 85 thousand, plus of 33 thousand seamen and marines, 17 thousand Airforces, 19 thousand police. YERP in its base region in the province Of Tukuman could attack by forces with size from 30 to 120 people, seize the small towns, where police stations usually were destroyed, the offensive figures of local life were shot and propaganda materials were extended. It is asserted that YERP gave out the expropriated money to local residents. Forces YERP also penetrated in the province of Cordova and Santa -Fe, where they were connected with the local small forces for conducting the actions. The largest battle of Argentinean insurgent war was the offensive of government army in Tukumana region, in what participated more than 8000 of special forces.
According to plan “operation Independent” was intended to satiate the territory of three departments, where were located the bases of rebels, by troops, to block withdrawal routes to the north, to strengthen pressing and in the hour assigned to isolate rebels from the population and the mountain mountain ridges, following how to destroy. It was assumed that following the utter defeat the rebels will lose will to the fight. In February- April 1975 was conducted the first offensive, in summer and in autumn - the second, during February 1976 decisive operations. The first stages of plan are undertaken even with I.Peron (for which it in 2007 they was going to summon), the latter with the junta. Servicemen reported about the destruction of approximately 350 rebels. According to official data in servicemen from December 1974 through May 1976 in the region perished 46 people. Those be outstandinging were rewarded with the specially founded medal for the participation in the operation. “Montoneros” those acted, as it was spoken, in the cities, dictatorships were noted in the period in essence by explosions, in particular, exploded the supply service of the federal police and killed her chief, and itself Videla on the chance passed violence, after finishing speech for the minutes earlier than bomb under the platform detonated.
On 23 December, 1975, however, rebels refuted rumors about sudden death of motion, connected forces “montoneros” and YERP completed mass attack on the military aims in Buenos Aires region; 130 members YERP attacked arsenal in the suburb of the capital, and 170 more other military targets. Attack was repelled, perished 85 rebels, of them 56 in the course it was combat in arsenal; 7 servicemen even 10 civil also perished. Specifically, in the course of this attack rebels blew up one of the submarines of Argentinean NAvy. However, insurgent motion has already been located in the stage of the decrease, not lastly because of the cruelty of servicemen and the ventured by them Dirty war .
As i know the so called civilians were tied with the famouse international terrorist Che Gervara who prepeared the some of terrorists groupes in Argentine.
So i think this is a big question who were the treated peoples the “civilians” or not?
The close relation of the rebels with the extremal ultra-communist ideology ( Trockij and Gevara) that in fact used the bloody terrorists methods for its political purposes do not let them as the “Argentinians own people”, right?
But I’d better not get into any of those things or I might poison this thread, so I’ll just content myself with saying that armies run by military dictatorships have a rather worse history of misconduct compared with armies run by healthy democracies. .
My dear friend althoug i/m agree with you ( i should be the extremist not to agree , but i/m not )
But as could we see from the histroy sometimes ( and regulary) the so called “healthy democracies armies” commite the even more worst think then the its enemy.
look for instance for the crime commited by the UN forces toward the korean population in 1950-53 ( Chuncin massacre and ets) or during the Vietnam war ( My Lai Massacre) or during the batlle of Faluji. This fact do not let us to agree with your point finaly.
Althoug… sure you right here … at least the democratic mass media has a much more abbilities to protect of action of thier own armies in comparition with non-democratic states, i/e they much stronger in “information war” .
And as we saw from the Iraq the so called “democratic” mass media could simply lie if it get the profit and justify of actions of its gov.( famouse MDW in Iraq).
Cheers.
A court in Argentina has convicted a former Roman Catholic police chaplain of collaborating in murders during the country’s military rule.
Von Wernich showed no emotion as he was sentenced.
Christian Friedrich Von Wernich, 69, was convicted for involvement in seven murders, 42 abductions and 31 cases of torture during the 1976-83 “Dirty War”.
Survivors say he passed information he obtained from prisoners to the police.
As he was sentenced, Father Von Wernich showed no emotion. Protesters torched his effigy outside the court.
The trial in the town of La Plata, 60km (35 miles) south of Buenos Aires, had lasted for three months.
Father Von Wernich initially avoided prosecution by moving to Chile, where he worked as a priest under a false name.
However, he was eventually tracked down by investigators and extradited to Argentina in 2003 when amnesty laws passed at the end of military rule were declared unconstitutional.
Participant
At the trial, several former prisoners said the former Roman Catholic priest used his office to win their trust before passing information to police torturers and killers in secret detention centres.
False testimony is of the devil, because he is responsible for malice and is the father of evil and lies
Christian Von Wernich
[b]Q&A: Argentina’s grim past[/b]
They say he attended several torture sessions and absolved the police of blame, telling them they were doing God’s work.
“Von Wernich participated assiduously and maintained direct contacts with the detainees,” the prosecution said in its indictment.
Father Von Wernich’s lawyers said the case against him had more doubts than certainties and that he had been obliged to visit police detention centres as part of his duties.
The priest said he had never violated the prohibition against revealing information obtained in the sacrament of confession and accused those torture victims who gave evidence in court of being influenced by the devil.
“False testimony is of the devil, because he is responsible for malice and is the father of evil and lies,” he said.
Outrage
Once the judge announced the sentence, observers inside the courthouse erupted with relief and jubilation. Outside, crowds cheered and set off fireworks.
Human rights activists and former prisoners celebrated the verdict
“It’s a historic day, a wonderful day… it’s something we mothers didn’t think we’d live to see,” said Tati Almeyda, a member of the Mothers of the Plaza de Mayo, a group of women seeking their sons and daughters who disappeared under military rule. “Justice has been done. The Catholic Church was an accomplice,” she told the Reuters news agency. The BBC’s Daniel Schweimler in Buenos Aires says Father Von Wernich’s actions caused particular outrage in Argentina because he had abused the trust that believers placed in him
Is funny how the jugdes are so tempted to be inline with the modern fashionable policies, a ordinary criminal who kills someone gets 25 years and maybe less than that, but a priest who never touched a person and probably gave some consolation in his final moments get life.
quite good justice we have.
Er, Panzerknacker, did you actually read that article?
He may not have got his hands dirty, and actually killed or physically tortured.
But he did (he has been convicted of it, so it is no longer alledged).
Pass on information he was given by prisoners. As a Preist he was probably trusted by the prisoners. Did he pass info on that was given to him in confidence ie Confessionals? Or just info that was passed to him?
It also states that he “won the prisoners trust”. This can be achieved in many ways, you send in the goons to beat the prisoner, then Father of Mercy here walks in and says leave him alone, and tends to any injuries and comforts the prisoners. He becomes their saviour and they tell him things. Or he just brings tit bits in, like sweets or shares his “dinner” with them. And is all pastoral.
Then, like most innocents do, he fled the country to Chile and got a new name. He also absolved the torturers and killers of their guilt, so maybe this was the reason for his fleeing.
No one seems to have got up and said he didn’t like what was going on in the torture centres though?
If he is guilty of the crimes mentioned, he is WORSE than the bullies and thugs. He is a priest, a man of god and a trusted member of society by his very uniform if not his persona.
Torching effigees in the street? They should be torching him.
Exactly.
I didn’t think it was possible, but he makes paedophile priests (but not Catholic bishops) look better in comparison. At least they betrayed their office because they were sickos rather than politically motivated mongrels.
So much for the separation of church and state.
That bit about him working as a priest under a false name in Chile is either bullshit or, given the history of the Catholic Church, more proabably an indictment of the diocese he worked for in Chile.
Priests work for dioceses, i.e Church units run by bishops, and only with the permission of the diocese they’re leaving and the diocese they’re going to.
A priest can’t just walk out of his diocese and turn up in another diocese. Bishops have to agree to the transfer.
Priests moving to another diocese have to have, in effect, papers. Just like someone in the military who moves to a new unit, whose transfer and history is verifiable from their papers.
The story about working in Chile under an assumed name is convincing only if you accept that, for example, Major Smith of the Coldstream Guards could turn up and serve in the Black Watch as Major Jones, without any papers for Major Jones’ history.
What arrant twaddle!
Probably 10 or 15 years imprisoment as a supporter of the regime would suit best.By the way lately in Argentina the thugs and bullies are in the outside of courthouses… in trials like this.
Maybe so about the thugs outside, but then many are nurseing a great many wrongs that have been done to them.
WOuld you be understanding that your son or brother or father was killed by some thug in a junta prison?
I wouldn’t be. I would want his killers head on a rather long pole.
As for 15 years, why so short? Will his victims spring back to life after a certain period of time? Or will their mental wounds heal?
As like the Right to wear weapon did not prevented Argentinian Junta to genocide your own people just 25 years back.
Well, I think it work in both ways, the lack of that right also made things easy to Stalin when he caused “genocide” ( honestly i dont like the word) in millions of russians, ukranians, and so.:rolleyes:
and by teh way, genocide is word that does not apply to that situation and can used only by a stupid bonehead like you, that show you dont know anything about it.
Hello again, back after a wee trip.
Often an enforced absence can be very refreshing, one can meet the most interesting people.
The somewhat limited access to the internet has been used in other directions, but now I have a more regular service I shall attempt to catch up with things.
I don’t know why I didn’t mention this before, must have been particularly busy:
A slack handful of questions:
#01. Many people think this do they ?
#02. Would ‘many’ indicate a majority of the population ?
#03. Where did these people get their information from ?
#04. Are you one of these people ?
#05. Were they all victims of leftist terrorism ?
#06. Are you sure about this ?
Often an enforced absence can be very refreshing
Definately, you absence here was very refreshing to everybody.
slack handful of questions:
#01. Many people think this do they ?
Yes.
#02. Would ‘many’ indicate a majority of the population ?
Not the majority but I would say the 30 to 40 percent of the population. In the people with more than 40-45 years old mostly.
A common joke in the mid 1980s and early 1990s when in colombia the situation was also chaotic, “…maybe they need Videla”
#03. Where did these people get their information from ?
The information comes from the fact that the chaotic situation wich affected argentina since the late 1960s ended suddenly in 1977-78.
The fact that E.R.P ( Troskist) , Montoneros ( extreme left peronism), Patria Libre ( communist), Movimiento de Monte Ramon Rosa Gimenez ( communist) and other terrorist and guerrilla were completely destroyed, his components killed, and most of the non combatants supporters captured or forced to leave the country by early 1978.
#04. Are you one of these people ?
Porbably I am, I think the Army was forced to get the hands “dirty”, however I think they commited several mistakes.
For example:
a) Use of excesive force in non combative supporters, probably with long improment sentences they would be okay.
b) Use of excesive force in Human rights activist, they did specially in rural areas, unfortunately the Army was extremely annoyed by the liason of the so called “human rights activist” with teh guerrilla, in some cases with accuracy because that people hidden suspected terrorist, a conduct wich was ( and is) completely inacceptable.
c) Permanence in the power for too long, there was no need to stay in power beyond 1980, I guess the Generals liked the Rivadavia seat ( presidential couch) too much.
d) Malvinas War , you dont go to war with the Uk without a good preparation.
e) Economic management of the country, wich is logical because they were not prepared to deal that area and emplaced some civilians wich didnt made it.
#05. Were they all victims of leftist terrorism ?
Probably no most of them , but they were mature people when the terrorism nearly devastated the country in early 1970s, the murder, the weapons robbery, bombing of police station and assasination of its officers and kidnapping were common in the big cities.
