Luftwaffe Cannons & Machineguns.

World War II German Military
#121

Me-410 in combat with BK 5:

Browsing the page http://www.luftarchiv.de I ve found some interesting information of the use of this weapon in the me-410A-1/U4.

[COLOR=purple]Im Einsatz sind vor allem bei der Verwendung der so genannten BK/M.Gr. bemerkenswerte Erfolge erzielt worden; so hat z. B. eine Gruppe von 53 Me 410 A-1/U4, mit der BK 5 bei 6 Feindflügen im Zeitraum vom 22. Februar bis 11. April 1944 insgesamt 129 Stück der B-17 “Fortress” Bomber und 4 Stück der B-24 “Liberator” bei nur 9 Eigenverlusten abgeschossen. wie die Abschüsse von 9 “Fortress” Bombern aus etwa 800 m Entfernung am 9. und 11. April 1944 bewiesen.[/COLOR]

My german is poor, but the thing that I can understand here is that a heavy Fighter group was equipped with 53 Messers 410A-1/u4.

In the time period between 22 th february and 11 th april those carried out 6 separate missions and destroyed…129 B-17 Flying Fortress and 9 B-24 Liberators :shock:, with only nine own losses ( Me-410 destroyed by bombers or escort fighters)
9 Fortress were destroyed with shots at 800 meters in 9th april and 11th april.

The number seems high to me but if true is pretty amazing.

Me-410 pull after a pass over B-24 of 388 BG.

Ltn Fröz aircraft in II/ZG 26, the killmarks belong to 3 B-17s shot down in april 1944 (extracted from Me-210/410 in action/Squadron Signal)

#122

The key word is “if”…

#123

Perhaps is the total number of bombers destroyed by Me-410s, and those included the ones destroyed with the BK-5, not sure about that.

Me-410B-2/U4 captured and tested by the VVS. Note the telescopic gunsight ZFR 4.

#124

To correct information on page 4 of this thread. No Bf 110 Es were fitted with the MG101 30 mm Kanone. Their designation was ‘C-6’. Only 12 were ever built and issued from the factory. It is known that three ended up with III./ZG 26 in the Mediterranean theatre. What might lead to confusion is the fact that they received tropical modifcations, making it appear they were 'E’s.

#125

The picture of the ME410 pulling off the wing of the “B-24” is actually, I think, a B-17. I’m not too sure, but I do know the pilot is Lefty Gardner, one of the pioneers of the Commemorative Air Force which used to be known as the Confederate Air Force and the predecessor for the modern day airshow. I know this because he was my boss for a few years when I volunteered at a loacl air musem in Texas.

#126

To correct information on page 4 of this thread. No Bf 110 Es were fitted with the MG101 30 mm Kanone. Their designation was ‘C-6’. Only 12 were ever built and issued from the factory. It is known that three ended up with III./ZG 26 in the Mediterranean theatre. What might lead to confusion is the fact that they received tropical modifcations, making it appear they were 'E’s.

Well if you look at this it said more or less the same.

The mounting in the african Messers seems pretty different than the C-6 wich is more embed in the fuselage. But you could be right if those wre adopted to drum feeding.

The picture of the ME410 pulling off the wing of the “B-24” is actually, I think, a B-17. I’m not too sure, but I do know the pilot is Lefty Gardner, one of the pioneers of the Commemorative Air Force which used to be known as the Confederate Air Force and the predecessor for the modern day airshow. I know this because he was my boss for a few years when I volunteered at a loacl air musem in Texas

Thanks for your input, I am correcting that right away.

#127

Mauser MK 214:

The fitting of the Mk214 to the Me 262 was an effort to create an effective bomber-killer that could attack enemy formations from long range without being subjected to the bomber’s defensive fire. It was estimated that a single hit from a 50mm cannon would be sufficient to cripple an Allied bomber. The development, by Mauser, of a 50mm nose mounted cannon was thought to be the answer. The resulting variant was designated the Me262A-1/U4 and was known as the Pulkzerst[FONT=Times New Roman]örer[/FONT].

MK-214 in Messers P-1112 projeckt.

The funcioning was the same as in BK 5 , the weapon was feed from the leftof the weapon. The cartridge was released by the ejector, which opened a wedge catch. This catch locked into place whilst the loading platform ran back into its resting position, ready to load the next shell. At this point, the firing sequence for the first shell could take place. Two electrical contacts closed in preparation for shell ejection, and these were activated by the interlocking of the wedge, and also by the loading platform being in its stationary default position. These switches operated the electric ignition of the cartridge, which in turn fired the weapon. At this stage, the ejector opened, and moved the wedge catch, allowing the ejection of the used cartridge. The 2400kg recoil of the weapon was alleviated by a hydraulic damper. The renewed introduction of the loading procedure took place pneumatically.

The more distintive characteristics in the increased rate of fire wich demanded a lot of effort from the Dipl Ing. Lindbau team one of the best weapons designer on the Mauser firm. The ammo belt follow the contour of the triangular shaped nose in the Me-262 and it carry more ammo than BK 5, 32 rounds.

Pulkszertorer:

This large 50mm weapon took up the entire nose section with the barrel sticking out some 10 feet. The 4x MK 108 battery was deleted and the only aditional equipment left was the 16mm guncamera.

So extreme was the installation that the nosegear was modified to rotate 90° during retraction, enabling the wheel to lie flat as opposed to the usual configuration. A revised wheel well door arrangement was also created to deal with the new layout. Incredibly, the colossal weight and shape of the “phone pole” sticking out of the nose didn’t have much effect on the flight characteristics of the jet.

Loading an HE round.

Two aircraft were manufactured in the Me-262 A-1a/U4 “bomber formation destroyer” Wk/nr 111899 y 170083) . One was adopted in early 1945 by Gallands JV 44 jet fighter group and used by the former night fighter ace Willy Herget.

#128

More images of the MK 214 emplacemente in the Me-262 Pulkzerstörer.

JV 44 aircraft.

#129

5cm ammunition for BK 5 & MK 214:

The rimmed 50x420mm cartrigde was the same used in the tanks guns, externally it have also the same measures of the pak 38 but was not interchangeable with this because his electric primer.

5cm Panzergranate 39:

Well know armor piercing capped, high explosive tracer ammo, projectile weight 2,06 kg, muzzle speed 823 m/s.
Penetration: 58 mm of rolled armor at 500 meters

5 cm Panzergranate 40:

Armor piercing composite rigid, aluminium envelope. projectile weight 0,95 kg, Muzzle speed 1140 m/s. Penetration 73mmm armor at 500 m.

5 cm Sprenggranate L-spur.

Explosive fragmentation round, projectile weight 1,96 kg, explosive filling 550 m/s. Muzzle speed 550 m/s.

5cm minengesschos L-spur m-zerleger.

Even it sound superflous to design a thin walled round for this calibre the performance of the 50mm mine was impressive. 920 m/s of initial speed. The filling was no less than 350 grams of nitropenta wich means it can destroy any aircraft with a single hit. total weight of the projectile 1,76 kg. Provided with tracer and self-destruction element.

5cm Minen cutaway.

First image above taken form the Tony Williams website.:wink:

#130

Rheinmetall Borsig BK 7,5 (I):

Following a similar way as with the earlier BK 5 the Rheinmetal team adapted the terrestrial antitank Pak 40 75mm gun to an airborne use.

There was no doubts what was going to be the use of this weapon, the target was to destroy armored vehicles even the heaviest ones. The gun would be capable to defeat tanks in wich the MK-101 bullets just bounce as tennis balls.

The way of functioning was the long recoil assisted with a pneumatic sistem. Feeding was done from a carrousel like 12 rounds 75mm circular shaped magazine.

BK 7,5 in Junkers projeckt.

The first experimentation with this cannon took place in late 1942 when some JU-88A-4 were modificated as P-1 variant, this bomber deleted the bomb bay and carried instead a heavy bulge with the BK-7,5. Due the large loss of performance all the instalation was jettisonable by means of 4 small explosive charges. In case of being pursuited by Fighter the Junkers could drop the weapon and regain some speed.

The Ju-88P-1 was used by some KG attacks groups and tested by the great ace Hans Rudel but due the excesive clumsiness of the airplane it was not a success. A small batch of He-177s were also equipped with the BK 7.5 for maritime attack:

Ju-88P-1 III/KG 1, eastern Front November 1942.

He-177A-3/R5

#131

There were two versions of the 7,5cm airborne anti-tank gun, both based on the PaK 40.

The original version, still known as the PaK 40, was installed in the Ju 88. This had a vertical magazine but was only semi-automatic - there was a loader in the fuselage who pulled a lever (or something) to load each round.

The fully-automatic version was the BK 7,5, this had the rotary maagzine as illustrated above and was installed inn the Hs 129.

#132

Interesting, thanks, do you have some squematic of the vertical magazine ?

#133

I’m sorry, I don’t.

#134

Hello Panzerknacker,

do you have the original magazine. I wouldt like to know if the headstamp of the 20mm cartridge is mentioned in the article.

Is it possible to get an better scan of the guns markings?

There is of course a MG151 but in 15mm in that time ?!

Thanks a lot

#135

Sorry but I dont have those pictures available, there was no image of the headstamp in the original magazine.

#136

Thank you very much for the answer.

Couldt you please translate the text to the pictures ??

So the plane was identified as an DO 17 ?

Did they write where and when the plane crashed ??

MG 151 spanisch.jpg

#137

Monument for the aviators shot down in Sierra de la Venta. (Torneria post)
At the right: Cover of the electric input in the MG 151 of 20mm.
It was found between the remains of the Do-17 shoot down in Sierra de la Venta. The number 46323e can be read.

The Do-17 crashed in Sierra de la Venta, province of Asturias.

The MG 151 is in the Air force Museum, Madrid.

#138

Thank you very much for the informations and translation.:shock:

#139

By the way the Do-17 was bring down the 4th september 1937.

#140

No problem.

BK-7,5 in Hs-129B.

Despite the failure of the Ju-88 the luftwaffe insisted and sought another more reliable gun platform for the BK.

The outcomer was the Hs-129 “Fliegende Pak”, a BK-7,5 was placed in a experimental Hs-129B in late 1943 and that make the birth of the B-3 variant.

The B-3 installed the 75mm automatic gun in a bulgeous belly pod and his 12 shot rotating magazine fully embeded in the fuselage. The empy cases were ejected in the rear of the bulge.
This mounting was not jettisonable and due the Hs-129 never received his promised Isotta-Fraschini 1000hp radials it reduced the max speed about 48 mk/h.

The gun was aimed by a Zielfenrohr 4x telescopic gunsight placed below the normal reflex Revi C-12.

Despite the performace shortcomings the mounting was reliable and powerful, most of the 26 B-3 manufactured were used by the attack squadron SlachtGeschwader 9 (SG 9) over East Prussia, Poland and the Reich territory in the closing months of 1944 and 1945.

In several cases they achieved kills over heavies like the Iosif Stalin tank with a single shot.

The total weight of the BK 7,5 and his feeder in this variant was 1100 kg and his rate of fire 30-35 round per minute.

HS-129B-3.

hs129b3a.jpg