What is the address of the grave? You have heard Solna street. According to other sources it is “18 Piastowska street”, which is close to Solna street. Here is the 18 Piastovska street on the map.
As I understand the grave is located on the other side of the street from the point marked as Bismarkstein - monument to Bismark, I guess - app. 180 meters South-Eastwards from the Castle wall (see the map).
in Lawrence Rees’ latest Russian archival research"WW2:Behind close doors,Stalin ,the Nazis and the west",it shows that the Polish army that came with the Red Army was in fact Russian soldiers that had to learn polish,change their uniform to Polish ones and pretend they were genuine soldiers for Poland to fool the population.And being in fact an occupation force.
Just wanted to point that out.
In fact this is actually the view towards the grave place from the Castle - somewhere right of the road on the middle of the photo.
As I understand the photo is taken by Germans during the Castle seige by Soviets in January 1945.
Polish 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division (Polish: 1 Dywizja Piechoty im. Tadeusza Kościuszki) was the first unit of the new Polish Armed Forces in the East. It was the first division of Polish First Army (Berling Army), part of Ludowe Wojsko Polskie). It was an infantry division, formed in May 1943 in Sielce (near Oka River) under command of general Zygmunt Berling and ready for operations on 15 July 1943. It’s first engagement took place in October 1943 at the battle of Lenino. It ended up its combat route with the Battle of Berlin. It was named after a Polish hero, Tadeusz Kościuszko.
In 1955 it was reorganized into 1st Warsaw Mechanized Division (1 Warszawska Dywizja Zmechanizowana).
So wait, the Polish Army that came with the Russians wasn’t Polish but Russians acting as Poles? For how long? Were the Poles who aided in capturing Berlin Russians, too? You’re confusing me…
PS: What evidence does he have, I’d appreciate a link or a book or something.
As I said ,I just learnt this fact not so long ago and wanted to share it.
There were a couple of Russian officers(from the 6th Air division I think) interviewed who claimed there were given orders.
One of them asked about his pretended birthplace(can’t remember it sorry) to be answered by his commanding officer not to worry ,the town was razed by the Germans.
Another interesting anecdote from the same Russian officer pretending to be Polish:a Polish woman approached him amd told him what a joy it was to see a Polish officer at last,he politely answered and she seemed to be disappointed.She asked where he came from and if he was from the Ukrainian border.I believe they changed their names also?
Again I am not claiming atrocities were made by Russians,just saying that the only thing the 1st Polish army had to do with Poland was the name and not much else.
If you think it’s not true,no need to shoot the messenger just take it with Mr Rees himself.
Just use your common sense and think exactly for how long could the Russians speaking Polish with accent fool Polish locals…???
No really who and how were they trying to fool like that!?
There are a couple of things speaking for it, for example the fact that Russia did in fact invade and occupy eastern Poland before Barbarossa.
So why should they suddenly be all friendly to the Polish Army they fought just two years ago and let them come along with them?
But there are also things that speak against it:
First, the Russian soldiers probably couldn’t have fooled the Poles into believing their charade for very long.
Also, there’s absolutely no reason for it. The Red Army was all over Poland already, and had more than enough power to choose the next Polish Government. There was no need for a fake Polish Army to support them, too…
Because they needed troops to fight the Nazi Germany?
Because it is always easier to supress a nation with its own army?
I thought such things were obvious…
We have a small misunderstanding here.
This army was a gathering of all polish men who were unable to escape from Soviet Union with general Anders to Iran in 1942.
Joining the communist army was their only chance to avoid death from the hands of Soviet butchers.
So in fact that army consisted of Poles, but they were commanded by Soviet officers.
Of course there was a group of polish officers also involved. Some of them agreed to cooperate with Soviets, some of them were not murdered just by the accident.
I can’t agree with the thesis that was a “fake” polish army, but it has to be said that it was commanded by the Soviets and was under TOTAL control of Soviet high command.
After the end of war, such an army maybe be very useful for controlling the sattelite state.
Say what???
Basing on the previous ingenious assumption, that is really brilliant conclusion.
Hats off…
Igor, there were much more idiotic and monstrous lies that Soviets tried to make the Poles to believe, so I wouldn’t bother myself with this one.
But seriously speaking, probably that guy, mentioned by Kamehouse, was one of the so-called “helpul friends” from the Red Army.
Don’t like the way you cut my sentence in half and put them out of context, Kovalski.
What I said was that they didn’t do any overly organized mass murders of German civilians. The state the remains of the [presumed] civilians is out of character of what the Soviet Army did during the push forward.
That massacres and murders happened is obvious, I don’t try to dispute that.
I just would like to avoid making conclusions when the exhumations and investigation is still in progress. There is too many questions waiting for answers in that case, so it is way too early for finish.
According to the press releases, about a 100 of 1800 skulls have bullet-holes in foreheads. That clearly indicate a war crime. But it is too early point out who is gulity.
There are two groups of suspects: Polish and Soviets. That is obvious.
Because the site is still being examined we may have hope for finding some bullets (if it was a murder-site of course).
But the rest of the bodies have no visible bullet-effected traces. Of course that doesn’t exclude other methods of murder. But also doesn’t exclude other causes of death, like deseases, low temperature, hunger, etc.
I think we have to wait for a final report from the exhumation team - which consists of Germans led by the German scientist (I seriously doubt in any attempt to cover the evidences).
Unfortunately, I’m fully aware that it may not be possible to discover the truth because of all actions taken by local authorities before the case was widely described in the press.
That deserves the highest condemnation and should be the subject of official investigation.
I’ll try to bring all the info which I can find in polish sources available in the internet.
I hope it helps us in the discussion.
We see the real misunderstanding here Kovalski.
And you add a much of it.
Firstly , this is not true that 1 Polish army was commanded and managed by …Sovites.
This is nonsense.
All of the Commanders were Poles, check the documents.
Secondary, all of them have VOLUNTARY joined to the Pro-Soviet Polish army.You can’t make to fight the officer by …force.If he is not a trator:) its’ well known fact.
The others ,who didn’t wish to join to Soviets, VOLUNTARY joined to Army of Anders in 1941-42.
NKVD specially has selected the pro-soviet officers from Polish pows - to form the 1 Polish army.
I can’t agree with the thes is that was a “fake” polish army, but it has to be said that it was commanded by the Soviets and was under TOTAL control of Soviet high command.
After the end of war, such an army maybe be very useful for controlling the sattelite state.
Again. It wasn’t under TOTAL controll at all.
It was under OPERATIONAL and TACTICAL controll of Soviet 1-belorussian front .Just like the Polish II corp was under full TACTICAL controll of Allied command.
If the 1st Polish Army was under Operational and Tactical control, isn’t that pretty much total control?
It’s not like they could’ve just said “fuck that, we’re not doing this”, or something like that. Were they treated any different by the High Command than other Soviet armies?
PS: What movie is that .gif in your sig from, Chevan?
From what I’ve read on the topic, the commanding officers in the Polish 1st Army were handpicked by the Soviets to make sure they got the right political attitude.
From what I have seen in the serie,Soviet officers were given a new identity and life to portray Polish officers from the so called 1st Polish army.
So to check documents of the time will indeed show Polish names.
Mr Rees based his researches on new documents available in Russia and previously classified.
A bit of a shame I am the only one who watched this on the BBC.
where is PDF27 when I need him?:rolleyes:
What are “documents available in Russia and previously classified”?
Show better the link to documents, instead to insist on some point, one have to show the proves.
