Mass Grave of 1,800 Germans Found in Poland

World War II German Military
#41

Not al all.
Say, the 1 polish army or Romanian Army ( that fight with GErmany sicne 1944 too alongside the Red Army) have been subordinated to Soviet headquarters and did have it’s one ZONE of Responsibility to attack or to hold by them, according general military plan.
But this is Abslolutly doesn’t mean that , say the Soviet officers shall to order them to WHICH enemy soldier to shot or to Kill , right?
As well as the Soviet officers didn’t personaly WATCHED for any Polish officer and soldier- if it was, what to hell is such Army needed for?
The SOviet Officers in Polish headquarters were needed for proper Tactical interaction of Polish and Red Army - not for to controll them each minute.And they have done the job very well.
The Polish army fough well and effective, it has been proven in Berlin.
Besides the Polish Army has been fully armed by Soviet wearpon ( including howitzers and Tanks)- the situation needs the Soviet military advisers.
As for Orders- yes Polish soldiers have been subordinated to 1 Beloryussian front command and therefore sometimes HAVE been obligated to carry it out.

It’s not like they could’ve just said “fuck that, we’re not doing this”, or something like that.

exactly sometimes they did so…:slight_smile:
In that incident that Beevors wrote, the Poles , have strictly violated the Order. They have to take the POWs to headquarts for cross-testing, instaed they just start their OWN vendetta.
So there were the tupical lack of discipline.
As we saw not always the Order of Soviet command was nessesary to execute for Poles:)
So they obviously DIDN’T FEAR the Soviet NKVD officers as much , as peoples usially to believe:)

PS: What movie is that .gif in your sig from, Chevan?

This is from old Soviet film “Osvobogdenie/Liberation” by director Nickolaj Ozerov.

#42

I’ve posted a thread in the axisforum to see if any members there heard of what Mr Rees is claiming.
I’ll let you know what came out of it if you are interested.

#43

Spiegel 20.1.2009 : Massengräber in Marienburg

#44

All the article says is that they pretty much know nothing so far because the Poles don’t call in medical examiners, but that the Russians had already left by the time the massacre must have happened…

#45

“the Polish Army that came with the Russians” having high casualties was reinforced with non-Polish soldiers.
Maybe this is the reason for confusion.

http://www.iremember.ru/content/view/535/2/1/6/lang,ru/
В польских подразделениях большие потери. Поэтому, пополняются они русскими солдатами, которых одевают в польскую форму (на голове конфедератки), а понимать польские команды можно научиться в миг. Комиссары (замполиты батальонов) у поляков – сплошь командиры Красной Армии.

#46

And what’s a problem to organize the medical examination?Are there the pure political problems?
Or the local authorities just delay a time?

#47

I don’t know. Maybe the authorities wanted to try to spare Poland the embarrassment. Maybe they wanted to keep the incident as low-profile as possible. Maybe they were incompetent…

#48

It’s simple: If there were any Jews burried there, they would have called in the best medical examiners money could buy; but since it’s only Germans, nobody cares, because Germans were the enemy so society doesn’t care. Thats what it looks like to me, and I think it stinks!

#49

Also, the Jews would have most likely been murdered by Germans - it’s an easy way to keep up nationalistic sentiments by railing against an enemy, and that newly discovered massacre would have been more fodder for their nationalists.

But dead Germans who were most likely killed by Poles?

A-W-K-W-A-R-D

:evil:

#50

Without reason you think that Poles can’t murder the jews,Schuultz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

The Jedwabne pogrom (or Jedwabne massacre) was a massacre of Jewish people living in and near the town of Jedwabne in Poland that took place in July 1941 during World War II.

Although responsibility for the massacre had long been laid at the feet of the Nazi Einsatzgruppen (death squad), recent scholarship by historian Jan T. Gross has indicated that the murders were carried out by Polish neighbors of the victims. The Polish Institute of National Remembrance subsequently issued findings in support of Gross’ claims

A group of about 40 Jews were forced to demolish a statue of Lenin erected by NKWD and then carry it out of town while singing Soviet songs :). The local rabbi was forced to lead this procession. The group was taken to a pre-emptied barn, killed and buried along with fragments of the monument, while most of the remaining Jews, estimated at around 250 to 400, including many women and children, were led to the same barn later that day, locked inside and burned alive using kerosene from the former Soviet supplies (or German gasoline, by different accounts) in the presence of eight German gendarmes shooting those trying to escape
:evil:

Poles made a cynical fun pretty well. The group of young jews ( teenagers) were forced to sing " the war becouse of us , we are the jews":slight_smile:
Some researches estimates the number of victims about 1000-1200 for few days.
After the war the Communist polish authorities have hanged that crime to…Germans and few “polish-colloborators”. The fact that essential part of population of town was busy in pogrom, authorities hided.

#51

It seems Chevan that Poles and Russians are sometimes very similar to each other:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Jewish_pogroms_in_the_Russian_Empire
“[…] Many pogroms accompanied the Revolution of 1917 and the ensuing Russian Civil War, an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 civilian Jews were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire […]”

#52

I’m afraid that the reason of such mean behavior of authorities was more prosaic.
It is only my assumption but I think that local authorities wanted to spare a negative PR to Malbork (Marienburg) as a tourist attraction. Probably, they may have been also somehow involved in the proccess of building of that new 4-star hotel.

#53

True mate.
Poles and Ukrainians ( plus Moldavians) sometimes looks wery simular in their “love” to jews.
The Most fierce pogroms in Fromer Russian Empire did occure exactly in Ukraine.
Local population ctively participated:)
But it ALL IT was just childish plays compater to the Orgy that has happend , when GErmans have arrived to Ukraine in 1941.
http://varjag-2007.livejournal.com/85416.html
See the photo from Archive of Jad Vashem.
The Ukraine “volunteres” murdering the Jews, right on the street.
I think the something simular has happend in Jedwabne , Poland.

#54

I said that they were ‘most likely’ killed by Germans, partially because Marienburg was German back then, so it would be a lot more likely that the German citizens would be the ones killing Jews in their own streets than Poles coming in from outside and killing Jews.

That’s why I said that if they were Jews, it could have been pinned on the Germans.

#55

Darn soviets could have given some people dignity before killing em’
Raped each and everyone of them

There is one occurrence were Soviets in Berlin TOOK TURNS raping a young girl.

#56

Um, did you read the preceding comments?

In any case, the Red Army wasn’t the only army that had problems controlling undisciplined soldiers…

I started this thread, and I think that any injustice done to defenseless civilians is horrific and the Germans here WERE the victims here. But let’s not forget the justifiable anger of the Soviet soldiers in the Red Army! There were Russian families, and all elasticities really, that were stripped of their winter clothing and thrown out into the winter of sub zero temperatures to die of exposure so German soldiers didn’t in 1941 and 42’.

Revenge is certainly not justice nor should anyone defend it. But it is understandable here…

“War is hell.” --Tecumseh Sherman

#57

I don’t know how true it is, but I thought it was pretty generally assumed that the people who committed these crimes were Poles?

#58

This is true , but Marienburg wasn’t german since jenuary 1945.And last jewish pogrom in Poland was documented in …1946 .
But joke aside.
BTW what makes us to conclude that ALL the victims in mass grave of Marienburg were GErmans?
It might be the Hiwi, Eastern workers or even poles themself?At least part of them.
some bodies were naked so how can we be sure they belong to same nationality?
We know for sure there were a few million of workers from East in GErmany since 1941-42 who were busy in industrly and farm’s.
DO you know ,was in Marienburg the any plan or industrial object there?

#59

Nick, sometimes i 'm going to think the KGB has already recruited you :mrgreen:
Can’t but agreee.
If KGB tells you that French resistence was a essential and serious , how can i dispute it?:):wink:

#60

A report from January 19 says that the 1800 dead could have been the victims of a Typhus epidemic which broke out in 1945. This would explain why the bodies were naked, the clothes would have been burned to avoid futher spreading.
According to the spokesman of the German minority in Malbork, Jerzy Fryc, the 30 victims with shot wounds in their skulls were the poor souls that were forced to collect and bury the bodies. They are supposed to be executed by the Red Army after they finished their job.