Incidentally, it appears that this incident has been debunked as a wild exaggerration of killings that did take place. One of the sources cited in the 1999 (AP) articles is believed to have not been there, and reported second hand information as an eye-witness account…
Unfortunately the original 1999 AP articles seem to now be available only in a scholarly data base I don’t have access too…
Draw your own conclusions…
Mine are that a small scale “massacre” and illegal killings of civilians took place, but the numbers are much lower than have been reported (my guess is about 100 were killed, and their deaths are regrettable) …
Actually, there is a clear difference from the 7th Calvary’s actions as compared to the Nazis (ever hear of Gen. Custer and “The Battle of Little Bighorn?” ) in that the the German’s carried out “reprisal” massacres in revenge for attacks whereas the Americans, in this instance, killed a minuscule number in comparison in order to prevent them from crossing their lines.
It’s a far cry from the sustained, savage German counterinsurgency campaign carried out on the Soviet steppes. Stop embellishing. There weren’t even really any N. Korean partisans that I know of. Just paranoid US soldiers and commanders and panic fire…
Noway Nick. Certainly those Korean’s lives worth no more than the Afghan civilians. And the old mudak Breznev mush understood it in 1979 when he ( becouse of his senile marasmus) let the hight military command of USSR to send the troops in Afganistan( as it was said for the people for the “supporting of international duty”). It was the imperial policy which lead this old Politbureau to the catastrophe in 1991).
The 1979-1989 Afganistan war took away lives about 1 -1,5 millions of people ( mostly becouse of civil war). And this responsibility of soviet gov.
Now tell me please dear Nick how many people must kill the Washington’s mudaks befor they will stop?
Korea , Vietnam, Pamama, Somali, Laos, Iraq (1991) , Afganistan ( 2002), Iraq (2003)?
Now they plann to invade the Iran.
How many millions they kill befor they would stop to kill? Don’t you know?
Cheers.
I don’t know if they have a quota.
But some of those comparisons are fraudulent, some valid. I doubt Bush’league will get his war on Iran. But in Somalia, I think BushI/Clinton were trying to avert a famine before realizing they had stepped on a bunch of feuding Warlords toes who saw food-aid as the key to power. Silly us.
And Afghanistan attacked us first. Iraq is a stupid war, Vietnam was stupid, but the victorious Hanoi regime has mismanaged the country, until recently, to the point that many wish we’d won (even though we were supporting incompetent, corrupt assholes). Although, in a sense, Saigon is still Saigon (and not Ho Chi Minh City) according to it’s residents, so it’s all various shades of gray. There is still an incredible amount of American culture in southern Vietnam, so they can only hate America so much. In any case, there is some anti-Americanism in South Korea (ROK), but it has been said that it is very superficial in that S. Korean university students are expected to be radical protesters as a right of passage, who then go on to be upstanding middle class citizens in the juggernaut Korean economy, and realize that the Americans that they sell Hyundais and Kias too aren’t so evil after all…
Whatever did the Soviets do for Afghanistan other than to set the stage for the horrid Taliban to come to power?
I would be glad to offerer you a little Vodka , but tea is not bet too
Just kidding, I’ve been very busy with a recent partial move and basically have been living near two different cities about 700km apart. So things are hectic as I am surrounded by packed boxes as we speak.
My time is limited and I also Mod at another (Classic Van Halen) website and feel obligated to monitor for spam and trolls. Plus, there’s talk of a reunion, so I’ve been there a lot. Thanks for your concern though…
What Classic Van Hallen site do you mean?
Here ya go buddy:
The Associated Press ran a Pulitzer Prize winning series of articles on this in 1999, which is what I was thinking of.
Incidentally, some claim that the No Gun Ri massacre has been exaggerated. I do not know, but you can read the dissenting opinion here.
Well Nick you can if you want
That’s good infor about No Gun Ri, thanks. Later i would read the dissenting opinion. So am i understand you right - you could not find something about Shuncin massacre?
What’s The Battle of Little Bighorn?
Nick it seems you forget that i’am from another country ( and even more i belong anothe cultury) i am not able to know all what you’ve mentioned.
in that the the German’s carried out “reprisal” massacres in revenge for attacks whereas the Americans, in this instance, killed a minuscule number in comparison in order to prevent them from crossing their lines.
I didn’t mean the number of civilians killing but the “reasons” of americans are the simular which liked to tell the Nazi. They had the simular cynism to the civilians of states which were occuped by them.
It’s a far cry from the sustained, savage German counterinsurgency campaign carried out on the Soviet steppes. Stop embellishing.
I’ve just compare it with the thing which i really know from history of my country.
As i said the cynical shoting the people from the mashin gun was the analogical in the USSR in WW2 by the Germans. May be you could not present this becouse the US was never occuped by Germans i could.
There weren’t even really any N. Korean partisans that I know of. Just paranoid US soldiers and commanders and panic fire…
TOO much of paranoid soldiers and commander mate Don’t you think so?
I don’t know if they have a quota.
That’s really bother me;
If i could learn the quota i will relax and enjoy, but i could not.
Becouse i don’t know who will be the next -Iran, Belorussia or maybe N/Korea?
But some of those comparisons are fraudulent, some valid. I doubt Bush’league will get his war on Iran. But in Somalia, I think BushI/Clinton were trying to avert a famine before realizing they had stepped on a bunch of feuding Warlords toes who saw food-aid as the key to power. Silly us.
And Afghanistan attacked us first. Iraq is a stupid war, Vietnam was stupid, but the victorious Hanoi regime has mismanaged the country, until recently, to the point that many wish we’d won (even though we were supporting incompetent, corrupt assholes). Although, in a sense, Saigon is still Saigon (and not Ho Chi Minh City) according to it’s residents, so it’s all various shades of gray. There is still an incredible amount of American culture in southern Vietnam, so they can only hate America so much. In any case, there is some anti-Americanism in South Korea (ROK), but it has been said that it is very superficial in that S. Korean university students are expected to be radical protesters as a right of passage, who then go on to be upstanding middle class citizens in the juggernaut Korean economy, and realize that the Americans that they sell Hyundais and Kias too aren’t so evil after all…
Whatever did the Soviets do for Afghanistan other than to set the stage for the horrid Taliban to come to power?
What what?
What did you say about Tailban in there?
Well Nick you can if you want
That’s good infor about No Gun Ri, thanks. Later i would read the dissenting opinion. So am i understand you right - you could not find something about Shuncin massacre?
It was a battle/massacre in with Gen George Armstrong Custer’s 7th Cav. was wiped out by a superior Indian/Native American force, mainly due to his foolish arrogance…
I didn’t mean the number of civilians killing but the “reasons” of americans are the simular which liked to tell the Nazi. They had the simular cynism to the civilians of states which were occuped by them.
I’ve just compare it with the thing which i really know from history of my country.
As i said the cynical shoting the people from the mashin gun was the analogical in the USSR in WW2 by the Germans. May be you could not present this becouse the US was never occuped by Germans i could.
You could say that about virtually any army in almost any large scale war…
TOO much of paranoid soldiers and commander mate Don’t you think so?
Yes.
That’s really bother me;
If i could learn the quota i will relax and enjoy, but i could not.
Becouse i don’t know who will be the next -Iran, Belorussia or maybe N/Korea?
What what?
What did you say about Tailban in there?
cheers.
I think Bush has run his course and will be unable to start anymore wars in his final
Thanks Nick for this interesting travel to the US history.
Little Bighorn was the pinnacle of the Indians’ power. They had achieved their greatest victory yet, but soon their tenuous union fell apart in the face of the white onslaught. Outraged over the death of a popular Civil War hero on the eve of the Centennial, the nation demanded and received harsh retribution.
I can imagine what was this “retrebution” like - the whole henocide of indians perhaps.
You could say that about virtually any army in almost any large scale war…
That’s right mate, but only germans mostly in the East made it publically for the politic purposes.
I think Bush has run his course and will be unable to start anymore wars in his final
[/quote]
I would to believe you, but something mention me that this is not simply the US pathific fleet has come recently to the Gulf. ?
Some of 18 “execution photos” taken of some of the 1,800 Korean civilians/political prisoners removed from the Taejon Prison in early July 1950, suspected of having “socialist or communist” sympathies, immediately prior to their execution by South Korean police acting under orders from Syngman Rhee in concert with U.S. military officers. Photo taken by U.S. Major Abbott, Army Liaison Officer, with a Leica camera, developed and printed by attaché office staff. Lt. Col. Bob E. Edwards, the U.S. Army Attaché in charge of documenting the executions, was quoted as saying, “General treatment of Prisoners of War after evacuation from front has been good.” Photo from U.S. National Archive collection.
These are South Korean civilians, not North Korean ones. Check the dates - these executions took place two months before the North Korean invasion of the south, when the US military control of things was pretty loose. These people were “executed” for being suspected communists - most likely rather in the manner in which the KGB or any South American Junta would round up and murder their opponents. Morally wrong no doubt, but not a war crime (if only because it didn’t happen in time of war!).
Sorry pdr sure you right it was the Sout Koreans civilians.
most likely rather in the manner in which the KGB or any South American Junta would round up and murder their opponents
Mate i don’t know about Junta but neither KGB shoted the people for “being suspected”.
This i tell you as the man who lived when KGB existed.
The mass killing of “suspecteds” was a lovely method of Nazi in occuped territories.
Nevertheless the execution the people in South Korwea befor the two month the War is the strange IMO.
Why they killed them if they could not to know the war will began. As i remember the official reason to of Korean war was the “Sudden N/Korean attack”. So if they know about attack two month before? This is very strange.
Morally wrong no doubt, but not a war crime (if only because it didn’t happen in time of war)
But this is still a CRIME. And this crime was made with participation of six US officers.Don’t you think this normal?
Even during the Purges and the Great Terror of the 1930s? The impression I have of that period was that the KGB (or whatever they were calling themselves at the time - Cheka?) were pretty much given a quota of people to round up with no specifications on what they had to have done or even if they were guilty of anything. I am not suggesting they continued to do this into the 1980s.
I believe they were shot for being suspected infiltrators/spies. Although the attack itself appears to have been largely without warning, there was a great deal of tension between the two countries beforehand and this may have led to the killings.
Not normal nowadays, but probably was at the time. Remember moral standards change over time. Furthermore, it was probably not regarded as being a crime at the time.
Oh come on Chev, the NKVD/MGB/KGB never killed civilians?
The Red Army troops and secret police committed many atrocities whilst occupying Germany…
The ad hoc shootings of Korean civilians, while tragic and horrific, were not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres of Soviet civilians by the Reich, and you know it!
The North Korean Army murdered far more civilians before they were driven out of Seoul in 1950…
The killings happened in “the heat of the moment,” much like a “crime of passion.”
Nevertheless the execution the people in South Korwea befor the two month the War is the strange IMO.
Why they killed them if they could not to know the war will began. As i remember the official reason to of Korean war was the “Sudden N/Korean attack”. So if they know about attack two month before? This is very strange.
No. Rhee killed them because he regarded them as a threat, just as the far more vicious Kim Ill Sung killed many more civilians suspected of pro-South Korean sympathies…
But this is still a CRIME. And this crime was made with participation of six US officers.Don’t you think this normal?
Yes, but, what about the Soviet Red Army officers that presided over Kim Ill Sung’s murders of North Korean dissidents?
[QUOTE=pdf27;95300]Even during the Purges and the Great Terror of the 1930s?
Do you mean the Big Red terror of 1918-21.
That’s true. The bolshevics made a henocide of native russian population not KGB.
Great Purge of 1937-38 is another matter.
This was a Purge of Bastards who killed the people in previous times.
[quote]
The impression I have of that period was that the KGB (or whatever they were calling themselves at the time - Cheka?) were pretty much given a quota of people to round up with no specifications on what they had to have done or even if they were guilty of anything. I am not suggesting they continued to do this into the 1980s.
Not right to equal the NKVD of 1927-1939 and post war KGB.
Moral standards change over time - are your words?
Do you know fro instanse the a lot of former coloborationist with Hitler ( i mean the Army of Vlasov who were sended back to USSR) and even the former member of Police battalions who guilt of participation were proved weren’t shoted - they get a different stretch -10-15-20 years but were not shoted.( Except the leaders and men who had personal gult in killing of peoples )
This is was in USSR in 1945-48. when “bloody murder Stalin” was in power.
After the war it were no killing of “suspected” in USSR Surprising ?
i only know one case of killing the peoples in Novocherkassk - but this was a time of Krushev in 1961.
How doy you think why today in Baltic states there are a lot of former Waffen-SS veterans proudly marshed in pro-nazi parades?
Becouse they were sended to the prison for 10-15 years for the participation in the SS but THEY WERE NOT SHOTED. Becouse although they perticipation was proved , but there was NOT proved they killed the people. NOBODY kiled them for being “suspected” of sympaties of Nazi.
I believe they were shot for being suspected infiltrators/spies.
I/m too believe there were a mostly “enemy of people” ( who killed the russian people in 1918-1927) were executed during the Great Purge. That was right and they got the revenge for its “durty work”.
Not normal nowadays, but probably was at the time. Remember moral standards change over time. Furthermore, it was probably not regarded as being a crime at the time.
Mass killing of prisoners couse “being suspected” is a crime of definition.
Even in USSR the guilt of “suspected” man must be proved, then he probably would sended to the prison or psihyshka (clinic).
Oh mate , sure you right the fact that NKVD killed the people justified the execution of South Koreans who sumpatized the communist ideas?
I/m so stupid this was revenge for comrade Stalin. US sanctioned to kill the prisoners becouse the Stalin did it;)
The Red Army troops and secret police committed many atrocities whilst occupying Germany…
It was a war and it was the resault of henocide on the occuped Soviet territories.Althoug this could not be justified but it could be understand.The Germans killed 16 million in the East.
So how many americans civilians killed the S.Korean who sumpatized the communists to be the shoted the South Koreans dictatorship under americans observation.
BTW Red amy and NKVD were not capable to kill so much Germans as it were killed by Allied during firebombing compain
The ad hoc shootings of Korean civilians, while tragic and horrific, were not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres of Soviet civilians by the Reich, and you know it!
Do you know mate Koreans lost 1,5 millions of civilians. This is don’t look like not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres. This proved that in this was the killion of civilians was a common matter of both sides. And i don’t see the reason to “justify the killings” of Korean by the S.Korea regime with USA becouse the N/Koreans did it.
I don’t see the reason why the N/Korean war criminals are worst then the S.Korean ( who covered by USA today).
The North Korean Army murdered far more civilians before they were driven out of Seoul in 1950…
This is just suggestion Nick.This is the part of anty-N.Koreans hysteria which support the USA nowadays in its political purposes.
Indeed the rate of civilians killing was rough equal and even if considering the fierce Firebombing compain the N/Korean perished much more.
Yes, but, what about the Soviet Red Army officers that presided over Kim Ill Sung’s murders of North Korean dissidents?
Any source pleas Nick where did you read about Soviet Army officers in Korea?
Quite probably - I haven’t had the time to dig into it properly, and there is reason enough to suspect that those in power at the time will have at least attempted to cover up a proportion of those executions/murders which did take place. Funnily enough Russian and Western accounts differ when it comes to the number killed…
There is the BIG difference between first Bolshevicks murders , the times when a lot of them were executed by Purge and postwar KGB indeed.
If the bolshevick killed everyone who didn’t support them( or simple neitral people ) from the class and native reasons. ( it was pure henocide) Then The Stalin’s purge’s aim was to “clear the party” from murders. The KGB task was the supporting the state safety. Its methods were soft but effective. They threat dissidents - soviet five column:sended to the climic or prison, or sended them out from the SU but not killed them.
I am not wondering the Russian and Western fugures deffer in tens times- there is nothing strange if to study the history in works of “historians” like dissidents ( who run away to the west in Cold war period).
If you will to study the English WW2 history on the work of D.Irving - you will find many “interesting” which quite differ from the official point
Therefore neither so called “Western accounts” could never be the true in nature, becouse it has not basis on the archive datas.
But they weren’t “executed” as such. They were killed from a distance and were not at any time under control, nor in the custody, of the US troops. And what’s rather puzzling is your thin, mocking veneer and constant obsession with any atrocities carried out by Americans or Western Europeans, and your hypersensitivity to any criticism of Soviet Russia, or of Vlady Putin…
BTW, how many massacres in Chechnya have been carried out by the Russian Army? Why don’t you fixate more on things you can actually change?
That certainly doesn’t justify nor excuse what happened. But it was far from shooting people in a village that had been secured, as the Germans hed in WWII.
I question whether you understand the actual context of events, or if your translator only works selectively when shit-stirring…
It was a war and it was the resault of henocide on the occuped Soviet territories.Althoug this could not be justified but it could be understand.The Germans killed 16 million in the East.
So how many americans civilians killed the S.Korean who sumpatized the communists to be the shoted the South Koreans dictatorship under americans observation.
I have no idea what your point is.
BTW Red amy and NKVD were not capable to kill so much Germans as it were killed by Allied during firebombing compain
You have benefited from the “firebombing” of Germans at least as much as I have…
Do you know mate Koreans lost 1,5 millions of civilians. This is don’t look like not on the scale of the premeditated, calculated massacres. This proved that in this was the killion of civilians was a common matter of both sides. And i don’t see the reason to “justify the killings” of Korean by the S.Korea regime with USA becouse the N/Koreans did it.
I don’t see the reason why the N/Korean war criminals are worst then the S.Korean ( who covered by USA today).
Well, that’s what happens when countries fight civil wars. The Soviet Russians fought on the side of a brutal dictatorship that now starves its own population through its intransigence and nihilst policies.
How glorious!
This is just suggestion Nick.This is the part of anty-N.Koreans hysteria which support the USA nowadays in its political purposes.
Indeed the rate of civilians killing was rough equal and even if considering the fierce Firebombing compain the N/Korean perished much more.
Any source pleas Nick where did you read about Soviet Army officers in Korea?
And what about the North Koreans that are starving to death for the system that the gleeming Red Air Force helped sustain there?
And I think I read about the Soviet officers in the air war thread you started…
Oh no Nick , you again about Putin.
I/am wondering, every time when we speak about unpleasant things you try to change the theme to the Putin and KGB. Nice method Nick;)
Firstly find any my post where i am praising the Putin.
I am a little sensitive when you justify the US crimes becouse Stalin did it.
You like a little child Nick.
Secondary the bolshevicks massacre of the people today a widely known and studied.
But we practically nothing know about Korean period.Don’t you think so?
BTW, how many massacres in Chechnya have been carried out by the Russian Army? Why don’t you fixate more on things you can actually change?
What i can to change Nick? The situation in Chechnys has stabilised nowadays. There is much safer then it was 3-5 years ago. Week ago the federals annihilated the goup of terrorists in in the Osetia border( they prepeared the terrorist attack in the Dagestan).
But unfortunatelly i could not to say it about Iraq;)
It seems mate you prefere to give the advises to me instead of fixation on things which you can actually change.
That certainly doesn’t justify nor excuse what happened. But it was far from shooting people in a village that had been secured, as the Germans hed in WWII.
Was it far from Germans or not is controversial question.
You know Nick mass killing the people who were “suspected in something” is very simular as the Bolshevik terror in 1918-22 and Nazy races purge in Germany till the WW2.
I question whether you understand the actual context of events, or if your translator only works selectively when shit-stirring…
I simply use the special KGB-translator, but shhhhhh…
You have benefited from the “firebombing” of Germans at least as much as I have…
And you have Chechen&Putin benefited from the every time when you do not know what to say about topic of thread …
Well, that’s what happens when countries fight civil wars. The Soviet Russians fought on the side of a brutal dictatorship that now starves its own population through its intransigence and nihilst policies.
How glorious!
That’s right Nick.
But as we could to find in the hystory the USA&Co also supported not the
fluffy kittens in S.Korea.
And what about the North Koreans that are starving to death for the system that the gleeming Red Air Force helped sustain there?
The famine in the NKorea, its economic blockade and the constant anty-N.Korean hysteria in western medias this is whole another thread.
BTW Red Air Foces succesfully helped the China in 1946-47. As we know today the China’s economic success will eclipse the USA through 15-20 years.
And I think I read about the Soviet officers in the air war thread you started…
The thread which i started tells about soviet air officers who defended the Korea from the firebombing , but not ones who participated in mass killing of prisoners. Feel the difference Nick.
) in that the the German’s carried out “reprisal” massacres in revenge for attacks whereas the Americans, in this instance, killed a minuscule number in comparison in order to prevent them from crossing their lines.
