My quic kguess would be that USSR won as the rockets were removed from Turkey, but USA had political victory. Almost 99% of people in Europe/USA still think that Kenedy saved the world from Nuclear War from that crazy Khrushchev .
That about sums it up.
But, having lived through that event, I’m bloody glad that one or other of them didn’t push the button!
Well both sides did win IMO. Kennedy got to say he got the nukes out of Cuba. Khrushchev got to say he stopped a US invasion of Cuba. Let not forget Cuba was a major factor…and dont mean just the missiles. By placing the nukes there the USSR put the ball in the US court and said what are you going to do.
- Live with it…that wasnt going to happen.
- Invade Cuba and remove the nukes. Bad idea because it was found out later that some where ready to go. Plus this would have most likely sparked WW3. Might add that Castro had suggested to Khrushchev that he launch a first strike in the face of a US invasion of Cuba. I think about here is where the Soviets were thinking their friendship with Castro might not have been a good idea.
It was a bold move on the USSR part and im not sure what they were thinking would result. Thankfully someone in the White House came up with the Blockade idea. This allowed for talks while stopping further build up. The time to talk was important while both leaders where having war plans shoved down their throats.
If you have ever seen the movie “Thirteen Days” about the crisis. I would love to see the same story but from the Soviet side.
Maybe sometimes the West misunderstood the USSR but not all the time.
I have heard form some americans that read the transcripts of the talks in the White House that the american generals were really pushing for nuclear strike or similar action. I never heard of this about USSR. But I have not been studying this topic much yet.
To your knowledge, where there specific war plans for any kind of “hot” war in USSR during the crysis?
I dont know of any plans by the US or USSR for direct attacks on those countries. Im sure they had them but most were nuclear attacks.
If you mean starting a hot war between the countries then…
Yes…I heard a recording once where Chief of Staff of the Air Force Curtis LeMay told Kennedy in so many words to quit messing around and start ordering the air strikes on Cuba. The other generals were very pro-invasion as well. There was a massive build of troops for a possible invasion if the nukes werent removed. The blockade was the last chance for peace and it damn near failed. There is no doubt in my mind that any military action by the US or USSR would have resulted in WW3. Note also that at the same time was another scary crisis between India and China.
I would say that Washington was in chaos over the issue and can only assume the same for Moscow. Would be nice to know the other side of the story and what plans the Soviets had. Open to anyone to answer!
Well, Sneaksie, I see that there is still a great deal of suspicion and resentment on both sides, certainly on your side. When this worthless administration is well and truly kicked out of Washington, DC after the next presidential election, perhaps there will be changes. Our current Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice is a cold warrior from way back. Ditto Rumsfeld, Cheney and Wolfowitz and Perle.
Rice was more interested in star wars and pointing big missiles at Russia/the Soviets than in Iraq or terrorism, which explains her gross incompetence when faced with a war in that quarter. But truly, the fish rots from the head down, so the source of this bumbling can be found on the doorstep of the White House, I’m afraid. Having said that, I am not sure that Mr. Putin is what we would call a “tall, cool drink of water” either. He has all the appearance of of moving away from democratic principles, but I am no expert on him.
Very interesting RS. Kennedy, however, had asked that the missiles in Turkey be removed well before the guacamole hit the fan in Cuba. The missiles in Turkey were Thor MRBMs and already considerably out of date and obsolote. It infuriated Kennedy that these missiles had not in fact been removed precisely because it had all the appearance of a quid pro quo which, in Kennedy’s eyes, looked bad. They were going to remove them anyway because Atlas ICBMs could do the same job better - larger payloads - from here. At any rate, that’s what I heard and read. Whether it is true or not, historians can better answer.
Great Kennedy quote. I do recall it vaguely. I hope we don’t get into another Cold War. What purpose would that serve? Besides, as a nation we have so thoroughly bankrupted ourselves in Iraq that I doubt we have the resources to crank it up again, and the guy in the White House is a lame duck who has been thoroughly discredited already.
I’m more inclined toward RS’ view. I’d have to ask my jewish friends about this. It is true from my personal observations that the jews I know or have known in San Antonio and Houston and Dallas are part of a fairly tightly-knit community. The high school I attended in Houston had a very large jewish population. It was also a very good school, partly as a result of that. I have numerous jewish friends, some that I have known for nearly fifty years. They are Americans and I don’t see them as being anything else unless I attend a bar mitzvah or a bat mitzvah and am reminded of their religion. I am privileged to know a number of cowboys who happen to be jewish, one of whom - Kinky Friedman - actually ran for governor of Texas last year. Americans of jewish origin are so thoroughly integrated into American society that it would be like trying to separate two colors of water after they have been mixed together. They have raised the bar in this society in terms of literature, scholarly research, medicine, scientific research, architecture, engineering, entertainment - you name it. When Hitler lost or chased out his jewish scientists, it was America’s gain in a big way, and Germany’s big loss, thank heaven. We have always been a haven for many.
Frankly speaking I’m share the point of Egorka about jews. ( not becouze he is my countyiman ;))
The jews do not feels themself as other nations, moreover they not behave as other ethnic groups.
In fact the jews is one of the richest and powerfull ethnic group in the world and at the same time the group that the present themself as the most “opreessed and pursued” ethnic group in the world.
The jews is the group that the most succesfully defends its ethnic interests than any other group in the world.And honestly speaking i think we have to learn a much from their experience.
We really have to study the jewish way of succes.
Here you have contradict for yourself.
You say all the jews that you know is the part of fairly tightly-knit community, right?
And then you say "Americans of jewish origin are so thoroughly integrated into American society that it would be like trying to separate two colors of water after they have been mixed together’
May i ask you did you somewhere see the Americans non-jewish origin who so carefully observes its ethnic clearness and who is the part of such close community?
I’m strongly doubt the afro-americans, indians or sombody else in America has a such strong ethnic ties as the jewish community has.
I have the jewish friend too- and i have to say all they are the peoples who has a bright mind ( with good feeling of humor) but i could not say they more clever or has a more adventages for the success realising its ambitions.
The great succes of jewish comminity in the world is determinenated ONLY by its internal mutual ethnic assistence and interaction.In fact they lead a most tightly-knit ethnic policy in every country that they live.
Having that ethnic system that helped the jews succesfully survived all the repressions and problems nowadays the jews has a most good chances to realise itself in society, has a better chances in bisiness and in the science and other fields where the jews already widely presented.
So my point is - only the naive man could think that we have an equal right and possibilities in the society where the such strong ethnic group is widely presented in the power structures of society.
For instance in the Rusiia the 7 of 10 superichest oligarhs has a jewish origin - you may say whatever you want about the more “clever jewish intellect” - i will never believed in this race-superiority bulshit. But the fact is fact and in society where the Jews has a total percentage of population is no more 1-2% they could get is over the 30-40% and in some field much more percentage of the places.
I do not wish to say it bad( the jews really could be enough good in the ruling elite, they excellent scientists and culture activists) , but … its wrong.
We have to understand that we “lose the competition” with the tightly-knit jewish comminity in the every our state. We lost the possibility of national and individual self-expression. And we lost our national origin culture when the “our” ruling elite chanched it by the its “international culture”.
Who do say its bad?;)I am? Not
Having the majiority in each gov the jew really could joind the world and we could get the perfect SINGLE state in the Globe on day, due to them.
But … we all ( who non-jews) will ONLY the second-race in this world.
Just think about it;)
Cheers.
Well this sorry again royal for the persistence to the your posts.
But i just see the tupical clishes in your point.
Endeed the time of existense of Third Reich ( 12 years) don’t lets us the possibility to assert the Germans fundamental science has a big lost in comparitions with the World.
But we have to notice the GREAT technological progress of the Germans industry.
In fact they could developed the rocketry system of V-2 that was widelly used in the both USSR and USA after the war. Only after the 4-5 yyears after the war the our ingeners could ONLY REPEAT the Germans achivements in that field.
Moreover the Germans had in the 1944 the best piston high altitude fighter (Ta-152H) and the best jet aircraft Me-262 . And do not forget about the best tanks and U-boats.
So as we see the Germans tecnological advantage in manies fields was even more than the allies.
True the US made first the a-bomb, but the USSR could repeat it already in the 1949 (with help of american stealed datas) or coud create own project of A-bomb in the 1950. I have no any doubts that the tecnological adventage of Germans could help repeate it already in the 1946-47. But who know, this is just one more fantasy on theme " what could be"
Just do not think i wish to justify the Nazy anti-semitism.This was a worst think in any way.
But i just to notify you to fall down in opposite extreme point - there only the jews who are the best scientist in the world and who “only moves the science forward”.
Cheers.
I think the experience might be very different in different parts of the world.
There is no evidence here that Jews do not behave as other ethnic groups, except for (a) being over-represented in medicine, law, science, business, and various forms of intellectual and artistic endeavour and (b) participating more rapidly and successfully in the wider community than many other ethnic and religious groups.
Jewish convicts were in the first group of convicts, and the first settlers, to land in Australia. My city, Melbourne, has the highest proportion of Jews in any Australian city and is believed to have the highest proportion of Holocaust survivors of any Jewish community anywhere outside Israel. Proportionate to the national population, Australia accepted more Holocaust survivors than any other nation except Israel.
Nonetheless, before the war there were significant sections of the Australian Jewish community opposed to allowing Jewish refugees in from Europe for a variety of reasons which, in sum, were that the opponents felt that the immigrants could jeopardise the life that Jews had in Australia free of the discrimination Jews experienced in Europe. Against that, there was a pre-war proposal which went moderately close to success to establish a Jewish homeland in Australia, which received a lot of state government support. The saga is covered in Leon Gettler’s The Unpromised Land, which is good read on both that topic and the wider issue of Zionism and conflicts within the Zionist movement. Here is an interview with Gettler which covers the essence of the book http://www.abc.net.au/rn/relig/ark/stories/s1438826.htm
There is undoubtedly prejudice here towards Jews, as is there is towards Muslims and various migrant groups and between various national, ethnic and religious groups. Unfortunately there seems to be a rise in threats and attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions, but this emanates from isolated groups rather than reflecting general hostility. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/06/13/1087065032706.html
We don’t have the European experience over a couple of millennia and the ingrained attitudes it seems to have produced and handed down the generations. Leaving aside occasional bigots and nutcases, there isn’t any strong negative feeling, or generally probably any negative feeling, here towards Jews as such.
The exception is Zionists, who have influenced Australian foreign policy, and not to our national advantage. But similar criticisms could be made of some Muslims, and for that matter Greeks and Lebanese and Italians and Serbs and Croats and Turks and sundry others living here who have sought to influence Australian foreign policy to achieve their external aims, although generally not with anything like the success of the Zionists. These activities often cause other Australians, as they do citizens of other countries where similar events occur, to question the loyalty to the host country of those advocates of another country’s interests. I think the rise in acts against Jews and their institutions probably corresponds with issues about Israel, the Palestinians, and so on and in part reflects hostility from some fringe, and not so fringe, Arab and Islamic elements along with the usual neo-Nazi nutcases etc.
Suspicions about loyalty which arise legitimately from an assessment of the actions of people advocating external interests are very different to the notion which has permeated Europe for centuries that Jews are automatically a separate people with no allegiance to their host country, and not to be trusted.
The history of Jews in Europe is not that they sought to be separate but that they were forced to be separate by the dominant Christian communities and governments. It’s illogical and unfair to blame Jews for not being part of the nation when the nation prevented them being part of it; didn’t want them to be part of it; and often mistreated them shockingly for no reason other than that they were Jews.
As for Jews not being loyal to their nation, there is no evidence that Jews were any less loyal than anyone else, given an equal chance. There is, however, evidence that people hostile to Jews don’t want to believe that and won’t hear a word which contridicts their prejudices. Here’s a case which encapsulates the problems Jews face when nobody wants to treat them fairly or rationally, about national loyalty or anything else.
We have Felix A. Theilhaber, a Berlin physician, to thank for most of what we know about Germany’s Jewish fighter pilots. Theilhaber served with distinction as a doctor in the German Army during World War I, and was dismayed to constantly hear in the media that Jews were not doing their part in the war effort. He was especially dismayed to hear that there were no Jewish fighter pilots because Jews were too cowardly to fly; he knew this was a lie and was determined to set the record straight. In 1916 he wrote a book called Die Juden und der Weltkrieg (The Jews and the World War). In 1918 he wrote Jüdische Flieger im Kriege (Jewish Flyers in the War) and revised it in 1924 as a volume called Jüdische Flieger im Weltkrieg (Jewish Flyers in the World War), in which he gave accounts of over one hundred Jewish soldiers who flew for Germany. The book was coldly received in Germany, and Theilhaber had a difficult time trying to advertise it or sell it.
You sir Rising Sun just do not tell us about thing that you do not enough know.
I mean befor the claiming the all European nations in the 'illogical and unfair hostinity toward the jews" you have to study the history of the relations in Europe.
I’m very glad for the Australia where the jewish influence was a as good as you have wrote.
But unfortinatelly i could not say it about my coulntry where the jewish-bolshevicks had leaved the bold bloody trace in history.But again this is not the point agains the all jews, at that same time there were a lot f jews who were a excellent members of society - the scientists , authors of book , directors of films and ets.
Your “neitral” point do not express the whole depth of complex relation between of the jewish comminities and other native races in the world.
Quote = What thread is about!
I think we might be getting a bit off topic here. Let try and stick to issues that deal with the West misunderstanding the USSR and vice versa.
I think it’s directly relevant. As I noted in #70
"Just in case anyone thinks that drifting into matters concerning Jews as a race or anything else has nothing to do with Western understanding of USSR history, it is very much at the source of USSR history, as illustrated by this summary of the significance of Jews in the creation of what became the USSR. "
Chevan’s posts here, and comments from Russian members in other threads, point to that significance; to the different perspective on and relationship with Jews in the USSR; and to the inability of people in the West with a very different perspective on and experience with their Jewish communities to comprehend the Soviet position.
To understand why the West might not have understood the USSR, it’s necessary to understand a theme which runs through the USSR from its inception.
The Western view of Soviet treatment of Jews from about the 1960’s was that they were oppressed and discriminated against, and on some versions not much better off than they were under the Nazis. It was one of the constants in why the Soviets were bad and the West wasn’t, and actively promoted by Western governments; Zionists; Israel; and various Jewish groups.
I think it’s a worthwhile exercise to discuss this issue, but you’re the boss so I’ll leave it to you to decide whether you want us to desist.
Risin Sun you wonder me more and more.
The assetion that “jews in USSR were discriminated not much better way than thay were under Nazy” is most sensless think that i’ve somewhen heared. May be you don’t know but the percentage of the jews among the soviet scientists , cinema directors and theather actors WAS the one of the biggest in the world.
True they were limited in the emigration to the Israel ( after what the rumors about pursuring of jews in USSR had appear in West) but for the any ather groups of soviet sitizents the emigration was FORBIDDEN. So the jews were EVEN in relatively better conditions that the other soviet ethnic peoples.
If you wath in the early soviet repablic in 1917-1939 when the jews HAD the ABSOLUTE majority in the ruling elite of USSR - you found that the jews in the USSR has a much more rights ( and the real possibilities) to make the state carier.
In that moment the former russian inteligencia were practically fully changed by the new jewish intelligencia that formed the culture, scientist live of USSR.
So from the jewish point the USSR was not as much “bad” as much it coul seems now. ( or as much it like presents the some of the people;)
BTW the USSR was only the SINGLE state of the world where the anti-semitism was a crime , pursuited by the law.
This was a first law ( it sound “About of ethnic minorities” or something like that) that bolshevics in 1917 has accepted
Cheers.
Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I’m not putting that forward as my belief but just as what was presented by some people.
Here’s a fairly typical Western Jewish assessment of aspects of being a Jew in the USSR.
The promises of the Russian Revolution of 1917 offered hope to the Jews that the injustices of the Tsarist period would end, and that a new period in the history of the Jewish people living in that area of the world would begin. With the passage of time, it became clear that these were hollow promises, and the communist successors to the Tsars began a systematic campaign to eradicate all religion, including Judaism. In 1952, Stalin had a number of leading Jewish cultural figures murdered. In early 1953, fifteen Jewish doctors were arrested in what became known as the “Doctors’ Plot.” Only Stalin’s death, in March 1953, saved the doctors, who were subsequently released. Under Khrushchev a new campaign emerged to stamp out the Jewish religion and Jewish culture. Jews began to be excluded systematically from many institutes of higher education and professions. Many of the remaining synagogues were closed, and, in the early 1960s, a number of Soviet Jews were imprisoned.
…
Meanwhile, official Soviet policy denied the existence of anti-Semitism in the USSR. Khrushchev, himself, denounced the pogroms of the Tsarist era, and Prime Minister Kosygin in the mid-1960s went so far as to assert that “the road is open” and “no problem exists” for Soviet Jews who might want to leave for Israel. This remark provoked an increase in applications from Soviet Jews, primarily in the Baltic republics, for emigration to Israel in 1965 and 1966. As the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union worsened, Jews in the West began to react with concern. In April 1964, the American Jewish Conference on Soviet Jewry (AJCSJ) was founded to spearhead a national campaign on behalf of Soviet Jewry. The AJCSJ established contact with the US Government, seeking to make the issue of Soviet Jewry an item on the bilateral agenda between the United States and the Soviet Union.
In 1967, in response to these early Soviet Jewry advocacy efforts, the Soviets permitted limited Jewish emigration. The Six-Day War in June 1967 brought this emigration to a virtual halt. At the same time, the success of the Israelis in defending the Jewish homeland sparked a reawakening of Jewish consciousness and pride among a segment of Soviet Jewry. The harsh sentences given to a group of individuals gave new impetus to the Soviet Jewry advocacy movement in the United States. All but two of the group were Jewish and were tried on charges of treason for an attempted airline hijacking. This episode was followed by a new crackdown on Soviet Jewish activists and the beginning of an anti-Zionist campaign by the Soviet government. It was at this time that the state-sponsored Anti-Zionist Committee was created and a steady stream of anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic, and anti-Israel material was published.
http://www.ncsj.org/AuxPages/history.shtml
And another current assessment of Jews in the Soviet Union, from the UNHCR.
Moreover, Jews in Russia lived in constant fear of pogroms, murderous anti-Jewish riots that were frequently organized or incited by the Tsarist authorities as a way of deflecting popular discontent.[3]
Although the Bolshevik regime which came to power after the 1917 Russian Revolution initially attempted to distance itself from anti-Semitism, Soviet leaders eventually returned to policies of discrimination against Jews. In general, the Soviet record on human rights was abysmal. While the Soviet constitution and laws guaranteed its citizens numerous political and civil rights on paper, in practice these guarantees were not enforced. Soviet citizens" rights, including the rights to freedom of expression, freedom of movement and travel, freedom of religion, and many others, were regularly violated. The interests of the state had primacy over those of the individual, and law enforcement agencies and state security structures worked to protect the Communist Party’s hold on power, with little or no regard for human rights. There were no legal constraints on state power, and no means of redress against abuses.[4]
Jews suffered a great deal under this system. The Soviet era witnessed the destruction of Jewish religious and cultural institutions. Attempts to deflect popular discontent included scapegoating Jews and resurrecting anti-Semitic myths and slanders. Jews were discriminated against in education and employment.[5] Discrimination was facilitated by the fact that Jews whose parents were both[6] Jewish were – and still are – identified in their Russian passports as being of Jewish nationality (in Russia, Jews are defined as a nationality, not as a religious group – Jews who either practiced no religion or who converted to Christianity were still identified as Jews). Anything that expressed Jewish national or cultural identity – studying the Hebrew language, attending synagogue – was grounds for being harassed by the KGB, dismissed from one’s job, or imprisoned on either political or criminal charges.
The Jewish cultural revival and emigration movement that began in the 1960’s had mixed consequences for Jews. Many Jews were allowed to emigrate, but emigration made life more difficult for those who stayed behind. Jews were treated by the state as potential traitors on whom the state should not waste education or other resources. Jewish “Refuseniks,” many of whom remained in the Soviet Union against their will, suffered severe harassment and imprisonment. The ability of some Jews to leave Russia – seen by many Russians as a privilege they did not share – also increased societal hostility among those who had no such options.
Chevan wrote:
True they were limited in the emigration to the Israel ( after what the rumors about pursuring of jews in USSR had appear in West) but for the any ather groups of soviet sitizents the emigration was FORBIDDEN. So the jews were EVEN in relatively better conditions that the other soviet ethnic peoples.
A commnet: The Jews were the ONLY group of people that actually could emmigrate from USSR based on just teir nationality and no other reasons.
So, does the last sentence in the last quote in my last post accurately express the attitude of some, many or all Russians at the time?