Maybe the West misunderstands USSR history?

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#142

Cavalry Ganner where did you get this mixture of the myths,cold war propogandas and simply lie about Stalinists period?
I suppose from the Wiki ( or something like that):wink:
This "source’ wery like to wite the simular “statistic”.

For example, Robert
Conquest suggests that the probable figure for executions during the years of the Great Purge is not 681,692, but some two and a half
times as high. He believes that the KGB was covering its tracks by falsifying the dates and causes of death of rehabilitated victims,

Do the Robert Conquest ever know that the sach historical 'method" could get him the absolute fantastic figures of repressions?He could “prove” everything he waht in such way;)

According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,367 victims, of whom 681,692 were shot

What Soviet’s archives did he mean?
As far as i know the Historian who really hve read the archives give us the figure about 800 000 of executed since 1921-1953 i.e for the 22 years of Stalins period.
The russian historian Viktor Zemkov wrote after the study of the Russian central state archive( former Soviet Archive of October Revolution)
http://www.situation.ru/app/j_art_72.htm

In 1937-38 at the culmination moment of Stalin repressions, “great terror”, in THE USSR were produced 2,5 mln. arrests, while in the period from 1921 through 1953 on the political motives were shot 800 000 people
Besides, we suppose that about 600 000 died in the prisons i.e the total quantity of repressions wew about 1,4 millions of peoples.
…
Many people perished in the period from 1937 through 1953 in the course of repressions. In the very the most severe period - 1937-38 years - there were convicted for the different sentences in prison of more than 1,3 mln. people, from whom almost 700 000 were shot. In 1951 there was convicted of almost 55 000 people, into 1952 - 29 000…

This figures nowaday gets even the western historians

Gunner, the Centrall russian Archive and documents about repressions were opened for the western reseaches since 1992. And if they would not so lazy and would not prefer to speculate with figures in spirit of Cold war - welcome to the Moscow for the study;)
Nobody will prevent them.
By while we heread ONLY the stopid claims that “NKVD/KGB specially decrease it in several times”.

Both the Nazis and the Communists kept power at the expense of their peoples

Oh really ?
I’m not sure about Nazy , but during the period 1936-1989 the population of USSR has increased since 170 mln untill 275 mln i.e in over 100 millions ( this include the decreace the 26 mln dufring the WW2).
Let me notice you that NO ONE state in the west di not reache the simular resaul for that period.
True the soviets material standards of life were less , but social guaranties, free education and free medical service ( hight and special) were one of the best in the world.
True the ald Politburoo was not able to reforme the soviet economy ( like it did the China). But i/m really do not see the reason to say that it was “expence of their people”.
As we know today the China is the most dynamic economical development in the world ( they exceed even the USA and most of southern Asia states).
Soon they could be the world economic leaders - how you the sach perspective - the Communist CHina in the head of the world?
So do not do the premature conclusions when the game is not over;)

Cheers.

#143

It would be useful to compare the average human lifespans, for USSR and the West.
Anybody got that data?

Pozdrawiam,
Kovalski

#144

I will try to get it. I have seen it once before.
So far as I remember it declined sharply since 1980s.

#145

Well as for resources there are many this blog isn,t big enough to post them all but here are a few…

^ The Sword and the Shield: The Mikrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB by Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, pp 86
and 87
^ Stalin’s Terror: High Politics and Mass Repression in the Soviet Union by Barry McLoughlin and Kevin McDermott (eds). Palgrave
Macmillan, 2002, p. 6
^ Great Purges Spartacus Educational
^ a b N.G. Okhotin, A.B. Roginsky “Great Terror”: Brief Chronolgy Memorial, 2007
^ On Leaving the Communist Party by Howard Fast, November 16, 1957
^ Another view of Stalin by Ludo Martens, Progressive Labor Party website
^ a b Communism: A History (Modern Library Chronicles) by Richard Pipes, pg 67
^ Soviet Repression Statistics: Some Comments by Michael Ellman, 2002
^ Stalinism in Post-Communist Perspective: New Evidence on Killings, Forced Labour and Economic Growth in the 1930s by Steven Rosefielde,
1996
^ Comment on Wheatcroft by Robert Conquest, 1999
^ Gulag: A History by Anne Applebaum, pg 584
^ Life and Terror in Stalin’s Russia: 1934-1941. - book reviews by Robert Conquest, 1996, National Review
^ “Pictorial essay: Death trenches bear witness to Stalin’s purges” CNN, July 17, 1997
^ “Mass grave found at Ukrainian monastery”, BBC, July 12, 2002
^ “Wary of its past, Russia ignores mass grave site”, by Fred Weir, The Christian Science Monitor, October 10, 2002
^ Twentieth Century Atlas - Casualty Statistics - Biggest Battles and Massacres
^ “Former Killing Ground Becomes Shrine to Stalin’s Victims” by Sophia Kishkovsky, The New York Times, June 8, 2007
Rehabilitation: As It Happened. Documents of the CPSU CC Presidium and Other Materials. Vol. 2, February 1956-Early 1980s. Moscow, 2003. Compiled by A. Artizov, Yu. Sigachev, I. Shevchuk, V. Khlopov under editorship of acad. A. N. Yakovlev.
Eternal Memory: Voices From the Great Terror. 1997. 16mm feature film directed by Pultz, David. Narrated by Meryl Streep. USA.
Robert Conquest: The Great Terror: Stalin’s Purge of the Thirties. 1968.
Robert Conquest, The Great Terror: A Reassessment, Oxford University Press, May 1990, hardcover, ISBN 0-19-505580-2; trade paperback,
Oxford, September, 1991, ISBN 0-19-507132-8
J. Arch Getty and Oleg V. Naumov, The Road to Terror: Stalin and the Self-Destruction of the Bolsheviks, Yale University Press, 1999.
J. Arch Getty and Roberta T. Manning, Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, New York, Cambridge University Press, 1993.
Nicolas Werth, Karel Bartosek, Jean-Louis Panne, Jean-Louis Margolin, Andrzej Paczkowski, Stephane Courtois, The Black Book of
Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, Harvard University Press, 1999, hardcover, 858 pages, ISBN 0-674-07608-7.
Chapter 10: The Great Terror, 1936-1938.
John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, In Denial: Historians, Communism, and Espionage, Encounter Books, September, 2003, hardcover,
312 pages, ISBN 1-893554-72-4
Barry McLoughlin and Kevin McDermott, Stalin’s Terror: High Politics and Mass Repression in the Soviet Union, Palgrave Macmillan, 2002.
Arthur Koestler, Darkness at Noon, 1940, ISBN 0-553-26595-4
Rehabilitation: Political Processes of 30-50th years, in Russian (Реабилитация. Политические процессы 30-50-х годов), editor:
Academician A.N.Yakovlev, 1991 ISBN 5-250-01429-1
Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956, HarperCollins, February, 2002, paperback, 512 pages, ISBN 0-06-000776-1
Eugene Lyons, Assignment in Utopia, Harcourt Brace and Company, 1937.
Vadim Rogovin, "Two lectures: Stalin’s Great Terror: Origins and Consequences Leon Trotsky and “The Fate of Marxism in the USSR”
Mehring books,ISBN 0-929087-83-6 1996
Vadim Rogovin, “1937: Stalin’s Year of Terror.” Mehring books, ISBN 0-929087-77-1 1996.

And as for the Chinese and my statement about at the cost of there peoples
we here in the states buy 90% of their products recalled this year is toothpaste that somhow is laden with the glychol an ingredient of anti freeze
also found in pet food produced in China. Peanut butter with ecoli bacteria and vegitables with the same problem. They have the most pollution of any country on earth and has effected the health of many Chineese people.
And here in the states we have the best halth care that money can buy.
and our congress is ready to pass a 4.9 TRILLION dollar budget for the year 2008 thank you! I do agree everyone is doing fine but just remember we here in the United States Finnce it all by buying everthing they can produce. And remember this economicly speaking when we have a cold the rest of the world has pnumonia. The buying power of the US is awesome. Immagration is our problem if anything hurts us its the muti million immagrants that illegally migrate here from all over the world now a days many from the former soviet block countrys and Russia.

Wally
Cavalry Gunner

#146

This is from JAMA JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICINE ASSN

Causes of Declining Life Expectancy in Russia
Francis C. Notzon, PhD; Yuri M. Komarov, MD; Sergei P. Ermakov, PhD; Christopher T. Sempos, PhD; James S. Marks, MD; Elena V. Sempos, MD

JAMA. 1998;279:793-800.

Context.— Russian life expectancy has fallen sharply in the 1990s, but the impact of the major causes of death on that decline has not been measured.

Objective.— To assess the contribution of selected causes of death to the dramatic decline in life expectancy in Russia in the years following the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Design.— Mortality and natality data from the vital statistics systems of Russia and the United States.

Setting.— Russia, 1990-1994.

Population.— Entire population of Russia.

Main Outcome Variables.— Mortality rates, life expectancy, and contribution to change in life expectancy.

Methods.— Application of standard life-table methods to calculate life expectancy by year, and a partitioning method to assess the contribution of specific causes of death and age groups to the overall decline in life expectancy. United States data presented for comparative purposes.

Results.— Age-adjusted mortality in Russia rose by almost 33% between 1990 and 1994. During that period, life expectancy for Russian men and women declined dramatically from 63.8 and 74.4 years to 57.7 and 71.2 years, respectively, while in the United States, life expectancy increased for both men and women from 71.8 and 78.8 years to 72.4 and 79.0 years, respectively. More than 75% of the decline in life expectancy was due to increased mortality rates for ages 25 to 64 years. Overall, cardiovascular diseases (heart disease and stroke) and injuries accounted for 65% of the decline in life expectancy while infectious diseases, including pneumonia and influenza, accounted for 5.8%, chronic liver diseases and cirrhosis for 2.4%, other alcohol-related causes for 9.6%, and cancer for 0.7%. Increases in cardiovascular mortality accounted for 41.6% of the decline in life expectancy for women and 33.4% for men, while increases in mortality from injuries (eg, falls, occupational injuries, motor vehicle crashes, suicides, and homicides) accounted for 32.8% of the decline in life expectancy for men and 21.8% for women.

Conclusion.— The striking rise in Russian mortality is beyond the peacetime experience of industrialized countries, with a 5-year decline in life expectancy in 4 years’ time. Many factors appear to be operating simultaneously, including economic and social instability, high rates of tobacco and alcohol consumption, poor nutrition, depression, and deterioration of the health care system. Problems in data quality and reporting appear unable to account for these findings. These results clearly demonstrate that major declines in health and life expectancy can take place rapidly.

From the National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, US Department of Health and Human Services, Hyattsville, Md (Dr Notzon); MedSocEconomInform and the Ministry of Health of Russia, Moscow (Drs Komarov and Ermakov); Department of Internal Medicine and Division of Nutritional Sciences, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (Dr C. Sempos); the National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, US Department of Health and Human Services, Atlanta, Ga (Dr Marks); and the Mid-Atlantic Kaiser Permanente Medical Group, Gaithersburg, Md (Dr E. Sempos). Dr C. Sempos is now with the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute, National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Md.

Wally
Cavalry Gunner

#147

Wow what a list thats good Stalin saw his Closest Cabinet and Trusted Military leaders. What I ment was he didn’t go out in the streets and stayed in his offices afraid of the people and of a military revolt. because of his purges of both the people and the military he had no Idea how his fate was going to turn in those days. Luckily for him the Nazis turned out to be exterminators rather than liberators This drew the Russian people to him instead of away from him, their fate was much better in his hands rather than the Nazis.

Wally
Cavalry Gunner:roll:

#148

We also increased our popllation from 1945 to 2007 from 160 million to 300 million as of January this year. I always was under the influance that Russia had some 275 million at the outbreak of wwll but I would have never thought that today we outnumber the Russians in population by some 25 million people by your numbers Go Figure! Russia is 3 times bigger than us in land area were getting pretty crowded over here…

Wally
Cavalry Gunner

#149

Mate the life level was not declined since 1980.
As i rember we still rised untill 1989 when the economic crisys sharply come to the suface.

#150

Gunner this is true about 1990-94 when the system crisys in Russian has rised till the facticaly the desintegration in the 1994 ( the war in Checnij).
I mean the period till 1985 - the soviets life was far from it was portrayed in the Western Cold war press and cinema.
Believe me i lived in USSR :wink:

#151

Who are We?
And where have you get the crazy figures about “275 million at the outbreak of wwll” sir ;)?

The whole Russian Impaire in the 1914 ( together with Poland and Finland) was no more the 160 of millions of peoples according the Tzar’s census?
So you wish to say that since the hurd times of 1918-1941 the population “suddenly” has increased over 100 mln.?
And this is after the repressions of 1937-39 and losing of Finland and Poland?:wink:
Sorry Gunner what is you historical method?

#152

Wow! That is a new fancy way to admit a mistake! So many words instead of just saying: “I did not know about this. I can see now that my veiw that Stalin hid for 12 days when the German Invasion started, was product of cold war time.”

But it is OK. I know it is difficult to admit mistakes. We are humans here , we understand.

As you could see Stalin did not do much out of ordinary. He did not just wonder arround the streets before the war anyway.

#153

Chevan,

I ment the average life span decreased since 1980s during the 1990s. Or in the nineties compare to eighties. It was the consequense of the Perestroika.

#154

Chevan,

I ment the average life span decreased since 1980s during the 1990s. Or in the nineties compare to eighties. It was the consequense of the Perestroika.

So far I found only this page: ПРОДОЛЖИТЕЛЬНОСТЬ ЖИЗНИ НАСЕЛЕНИЯ

Men’s life expectancy for some countires (Russia is the lowest):

Women’s life expectancy for some countires (Russia is the lowest):

Note the jump in the Russia’s men life expectancy in the 1985. It is due to the Gorbachev’s alcohole consumption regulations policies.

BTW, as I understand Russia in these graphs does not equal USSR.

#155

All I can go on is what I’ve learned in college and every documentary on the subject that I’ve seen over the last 40 years.That Russia very much outnumbered the Germans who had only 75 million people. And those were the numbers. Concerning your numers I can assume that if a fact, the U.S. population and the Russian popultion are pretty much on parrellel or have been very close during the last 70 years or so.
Hitler is quoted having said that concerning Russia that he could be much like the British Empire ruling the nation of India where some 70 millon people Ruled
some (at that time) 400 million people.Population is and always has been a difficult subject gathering REAL numbers is really hard Ive done this concerning our country the range of numbers often relates back to who’s numers one is willing to believe. like Before this post I’ve tryed to get some real numbers on this subject and have read numbers from 1941 Russia that range from 111 million to 270 million and Iam not in to throwing darts to fugure it out as all of these sources are from credible establishments i.e. Universitys ,Government Agencies ECT.

Ive done this with our own civil war and the numbers are vastly diffrent from many sources.

Wally
Cavalry Gunner:confused:

#156

No no mistake here, you just as most times misinterperate the posts.And try to do a good job at turning the spin on the subject your way.But I don’t really care! see I hold a masters degree in history and majored in modern and military history. I also was In the U.S.Army for some 10 years and served along many of your borders and in a couple of wars.
On top of that (hey Iam liking this opportunity to vent) my neighbors are from POLAND and 2 of my friends are from UKRAINE so now and then I get a little personal input on the situation over there that brought them here.
I also had my ex wifes grandfather who was from Lithuania When the Russians were about to take back the Balkins he prefered to leave his fate to the GERMANS rather to live under STALIN and he got out of there and after the war wound up in New York City.
Now that ,along with what Ive been tought over the last 40 years lead me to believe that most of your posts are posted to mislead. And just that leads to the heading of this thread. We here in the West do not understand the Russians and probably never will… And that is a shame, but after some 45 years of propaganda from both sides bringing 2 societies to really hate each other what does one expect.

Wally
Cavalry Gunner:rolleyes:

#157

Here is a great film on German Russian Conflict

<embed style=“width:400px; height:326px;” id=“VideoPlayback” type=“application/x-shockwave-flash” src=“http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=151798573345986466&hl=en” flashvars=""> </embed>

Wally:D
Cavalry Gunner

#158

Here is a link to a good film on the German Invasion of Russia 35 min and if you like it you can also see part 2.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=151798573345986466

Wally
Cavalry Gunner

#159

Heres another link to a great short biography of Joseph Stalin For a College History Project.And a link to part 2 leading up to present day Russia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15TxVgFEmPM Part 1 A short Biography

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jC06yA3EhKY link to part 2

Wally
Cavalry Gunner

#160

And did somebody in college told you about that in the 1941( in the moment of Invasion) the Germans FULLY controlled the territory with population over 150 mln of peoples ( plus 75 of GErmans).
Besides the such high-industrial states like the France and Chechoslovakia ( only chehoslovakia prodused as many wearpon as the whole Britain in that time).

And those were the numbers. Concerning your numers I can assume that if a fact, the U.S. population and the Russian popultion are pretty much on parrellel or have been very close during the last 70 years or so.

No Russian population but but Population of the USSR !!!
The Population of USSR after the war increased constantly from about 200 mln till the 275 mln if the mid of 1980 this was more the the population of the USA in this time 240 mln).
However after desintagration the USSR the pure Russian Federation population was less then 165 mln in 1993 for the moment.

Cheers.

#161

Oh really you are so great specialist of the my ( and Egorka) histroy to say him that his posts goes to mislead?
Do not make us laught sir.
My ancestors live in the Russian impare/USSR for the all time AND NO ONE has emigrated to the west . I personaly lived in USSR 14 years till the collapse. So you will tell me about the USSR’s life and try teach the my history : what figures are arong and what was right?
:smiley: