Librarian and PDF, your debate about engines is clearly one of the most fine posting I ever seen here.
However being this a topic about the Messer 262 we should keep the topic in this aircraft and in this case his engines.
We can open a topic exclusively devoted to engines if someone is interested.
Thank you for the amazing infor dear Librarian.
You continie to wonder me of your high detailed engeens posts;)
I’ve never even heared about Tu-487, i’ve read aboutthe manies soviet experimentals aircrafts that were not passed in serial profuction, but about the Tu-487 i was not able to find any inro in the russian net.
Was it a really flight aircraft or it was only the project?
And thanks for the last post engines diagrams.
I have strong suspicions that the efficiencies quoted for the Elsbett engine are somewhat… dodgy. The claims on their website don’t quite hang together and I suspect that they’ll probably fall afoul of the Second Law in practice.
OK, so they built a working prototype. Was it ever independently tested to confirm their claims? Did it go into series production? Why, if it was such a massive advance on other engines did nobody else license the technology, and why does the company now not have anything to do with it but instead sell conversion kits for engines to run on vegetable oil?
Apologies for the skepticism, but there are an awful lot of charlatans about making claims like that.
Panzerknacker, if you don’t like the way the thread is going either rename it or split the threads in two. Personally I’ve never thought that moderators trying to keep a thread on-topic is a sensible thing to do - this is a discussion board, not a question and answer centre.
I think if I did a poll then Librarian would be voted the most polite member of this forum!
The last place where the Me-262s were manufactured…in the woods. The reason was the increasingly heavy bombing offensive in the german factories.
I’m actually shocked that the Luftwaffe was able to shoot down P-51s by 1945.
I’m actually shocked that the Luftwaffe was able to shoot down P-51s by 1945
And why not, despite the overwhelming numeric inferiority it could be done if you was in the right time/location.
The Me-262 was a proficient Mustang killer.
Well i think the Me-262 with his 4x30mm gun!!! was an excellent hunter of strategical bomber.I was covicted in when fought in computer fly simulator Il-2. However the Me-262 was not so good in fighter Vs fighter combat.
Simply coz it had no enough manevreability and the jet engeenes Jumo004 were wery vulnerable. Even SINGLE 12-mm BULLET of mashingun could light up it.
In the Net combatans of the P-51 with Me-262 the Mustangs had more great overal scope.
BTW one time i was puzzled why the Mustangs were so dangerously explosive.
While i’ve know it had a great fuel tank - for the road back to the Airfields.
So even the single shell of german fighter’s gun could cause the explosion of P-51.
So much allied pilots died for this reason.
I could be wrong, but I recall that Mustangs actually shot down more Me-262s…
I’ll check.
Well, a P-51 pilot by the name of Urban Drew shot down two Me-262s on a single mission as well…
October 7th. Drew was flying with wingman McCandless when he spotted the German airbase at Achmer and went down for a look. Two Schwalbe’s were just taking off when Drew dived on them, McCandless keeping right with him. The first Me 262 exploded when hit by the .50s of “Detroit Miss”. Drew says he was surprised when the second Me 262 tried to climb away, allowing him to turn inside and shoot away the jet’s control surfaces. When Drew returned to base, he found that not only had his wingman failed to return after being hit by flak following Drew’s victories, but the gun camera also failed. Only after the war did Drew learn his wingman had survived.
More than 40 years later, an Air Force clerk noticed Drew’s claim for two Me-262 victories on the same mission. She contacted a custodian of German war records, who knew former Luftwaffe pilots who might be able to shed light on the claim. Georg-Peter Eder had been set to lead the Me-262s of JG 7 that day, but when his aircraft had problems taking off the two-ill-fated pilots took off to lead JG 7. Eder says he saw a yellow-nosed P-51 dive on the Me 262s and shoot them down. Eder couldn’t read “Detroit Miss” on the nose of the Mustang, but his account was sufficient to confirm Drew’s two Me-262 victories.
And BTW, US pilots would fly over Luftwaffe aerodromes in hopes of catching a Me-262 landing or taking off, when it was vulnerable and essentially useless in air-to-air combat…
Well i think the Me-262 with his 4x30mm gun!!! was an excellent hunter of strategical bomber.I was covicted in when fought in computer fly simulator Il-2. However the Me-262 was not so good in fighter Vs fighter combat.
Simply coz it had no enough manevreability and the jet engines Jumo004 were wery vulnerable. Even SINGLE 12-mm BULLET of mashingun could light up it
Well, still is matter of discussion, somepeople in the Luftwaffe like General Steinhoff tough that the best job for the Me-262 was to clean up the sky of fighter to allow the special Fw-190 armored formation to engage the bomber undisturbed.
And yes a single 12,7 mm round from the fighters or the bomber defensive MGs could cause trouble for the Me-262.
Well, a P-51 pilot by the name of Urban Drew shot down two Me-262s on a single mission as well…
Yeap and I think is not the only case, the Me-262 pilots claimed about 350 aircraft and loose 150 Messers in turn.
Those “claims” again.
Many of those 350 aircraft were presumably bombers, not fighters.
Yea PZ those 350 aircrafts could be particulary the bombers.
Navartheless 350x150 is not the bad kill ratio for the Me-262.
However could we 100% believe for the Germans “claims”?
Yes the situation was so serious for the Germans that they have to use the special cover - the few FW-190 or even uber-fighter TA-152 simply for covering the landing and taking off Me-262 over airfields.
This was additional problem that do not let us consider the Me-262 strongly positively.
Nevertheless i agree with point the Me-262 was the BEST jet fighter of its time.
Those “claims” again.
Many of those 350 aircraft were presumably bombers, not fighters.
The proportion must be 60 % bombers and the rest fighter and recce airplanes.
And the claims are this, judge by yourself:
Again we have a problem where the majority of those claims which ocurred in the last several months of the war would not have been verified. As far as I am aware Chevan it was predominantly the Fw-190D-9 which performed most of the airfield defense duties of at least JV 44.
Again my apologies all my reference material is stored at the present time, so details are sketchy.
Regards digger
The Jv 44 FWs were used but did not shoot down any intruder.
Bomber variants: Me-262A-2a/U1.
Following the Fürherbefel of May 25th 1944 to manufacture most of the Me-262s as bombers the Ausburgs technicians sought to improve the accuracy of his Sturmvogel ( Attack bird)
This subversion had the nose mounted armament reduced to 2 × MK 108 cannon. The spare room in the nose was used to install a Tief- und Sturzfluganlage (low- and dive-bombing flight device) to improve bombing accuracy. Only 3 of this version were built, because Hitler revoked his order that all Me 262 be fitted with bombing devices. All subsequent aircraft were intended for the interceptor role once again.
Since they never met, we’ll never know for sure. But it’s been said that the Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star may have had a slight edge over the Me-262…
The Lockheed P-80 was deployed in North Italy in 1945 to counter two very anoyying german jet recce aircrafts, the Arado 234 and the Messers Me-262A-1a/U3.
Me-262A-1a/U3
I’d say it had a massive advantage over the Me-262. Personally I reckon even the early mark Meteors had an advantage over the Me-262 as fighters, and the late marks would have spanked it (the Me-262 wasn’t well suited to development, the wings were much too thick).