Messerschmitt Me 262.

[George_Eller]

@awack

Hey george,
As you see the post made by buzzlightyear seems to have mistakes in it,
for starters there was only one XP-80 made and its weight was 6287 pounds empty and 8196 pounds loaded and the report states it was a p-80 weighed nearly 2000 pounds less than the me 262, the typical loaded weight of the early production P-80a 11.700 to 12.100 pounds and the loaded weight of the me 262 was 14.100 pounds.

The two XP-80a’s had an upgraded engine with a thrust of 4000 pounds
it should be noted that the production versions of this engine had a thrust of 3850 pounds

He also states that the p-80 had a higher critical mach number but the flight testing of the FE-4012 (recon version fitted with the nose of a fighter) took place during mid 1946 and the report states that the me 262 had a higher critical number than any current army airforce fighter.

Hi awack,

I am getting these figures.

XP-80A weights: 7,920 lb empty, 11,700 lb gross, 14,000 / 14,500 lb maximum take off weight
http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/usplanes/aircraft/shootstr.htm

Me 262A-1a weights: 8,378 lb empty, 9,742 lb typical, 10,154 lb gross basic, 14,110 lbs. maximum take off weight
http://www.warbirdalley.com/me262.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/messme262.html
http://www.pilotfriend.com/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/Messerschmitt%20Me%20262.htm
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/Me262/262PilotHandbook.pdf

XP-80 weights: 6,287 lb empty, 8196 pounds loaded.
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p80_1.html
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/Lockheed-L140/XP80.htm

Note that the maximum take off weight of the XP-80A and Me 262 are almost the same.

The empty weight of the XP-80A and Me 262 are very close - the Me 262 was 458 lb heavier.

However, the empty weight of the XP-80 and Me 262 differ - the Me 262 was 2,091 lb heavier.
Also the loaded weight of XP-80 and Me 262 basic gross weight differ - the Me 262 was 1,958 lb heavier - This seems to back up the statement by BuzzLightyear quoted at bottom that the side by side comparison was between a stripped recon verson of the Me-262 and the XP-80 (which was dimensionally smaller and had 1,000 lbs less thrust than the P-80A).
(In light of your quote: “Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (907 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance.”)

In 1946 after exhaustive flight testing the XP-80 was transferred to the Smithsonian Institution where it is on display today.
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/Lockheed-L140/XP80.htm

From:
LWAG The Luftwaffe Archives & Records Reference Group
http://www.lwag.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=705000&sid=dbc6c625cb0fa2b5468b2a8a6c929fb5

posted by Richard T. Eger, Sun July 30, 2000 7:37 pm

The following are key records taken from the Seymour, IN, newspaper relating to Freeman Field activities with captured aircraft at the end of WW II:

INFORMATION EXTRACTED FROM THE SEYMOUR DAILY TRIBUNE,
SEYMOUR, INDIANA, REGARDING CAPTURED LUFTWAFFE AIRCRAFT
BROUGHT TO FREEMAN FIELD AFTER WW II
(Data obtained by Richard T. Eger, ~9/72, 11/30/74, 3/1/75, and 3/8/75)

5/22/46

“Slick-up” Me-262 left Freeman field late afternoon bound for Wright Field, AMC HQ, where it will be subjected to a series of tests to determine its utmost capabilities. Plane, which came from Germany via a British aircraft carrier, was completely rebuilt and brought up to safety standards demanded by AAF. A new coat of special aircraft paint was applied to plane to bring out fullest speed capabilities. Several other aircraft of the same type (assume Me 262) are still assigned to the base (Freeman Field). (I presume the above was a quote, but I failed to use quotation marks).

Regarding critical mach number, the information I’ve seen rated the Me 262 faster in a dive.

There seems to be conflicting information on the Me 262 vs P-80 comparison tests at Wright Field after the war. I am just trying to get a more complete picture of what actually occured. It would be nice to see the records of all the studies that were conducted. BuzzLightyear stated that at least four additional comparison studies were done.

As I find more information, I will pass it on.

Best Regards,
George

More interesting information on the Me 262 vs P-80 comparison tests at Wright Field after the war.

The Great Planes
A Source About World War 2 Aviation

BuzzLightyear
Posted - February 04 2004 : 02:46:29 AM
http://www.tgplanes.com/Public/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=56&SearchTerms=Extraversion

BTW, I agree the P-80A was the best jet fighter to emerge from WWII. It simply gave up nothing to the Me-262 in terms of performance, being superior in just about every imaginable performance category. It was faster at all altitudes. Had a ceiling of some 8,000 feet higher. It had a better drag coefficient. It had a higher critical mach. It had better power-to-weight ratio. Better wing loading. Better range.

The P-80A roll rate was simply amazing for that era:

The only area where the P-80 could have used improvement was the stick force required in longitudnal manuevers with a signficantly forward center-of-gravity. It could be very high. As center-of-gravity shifted back, control stick forces were exceptionally light.

[b]I’ve seen (In the book Me-262, Smith and Creek, Volume 4) a summary of a direct comparison test done after the war that suggested the overall superiority of the Me-262. But it’s important to note that that comparsion was between a stripped recon verson of the Me-262 and the XP-80 (which was dimensionally smaller and had 1,000 lbs less thrust than the P-80A). This was the only test that I know of where both planes were present at the same place and time.

However, I know of at least 4 other comparison studies that were done by the USAAF between the P-80A and the Me-262. Results of two of those tests are unknown to me. The others concluded the general superiority of the P-80A. One pilot in one of the latter tests stated “The Me-262 may be the best jet fighter in service, but the P-80 is the best jet fighter in the world.” I guess he meant combat service. [/b]

Regards,
Buzz

[awack]

Me262-1A Specifications -
Engines: 2 x Jumo-004B engines with 1,980 lb S.T. (900 kg) each.
Weights - empty: 8,380 lb (3,800 kg) Operational: 14,110 lb (6,400 kg) Maximum: 15,720 lbs (7,130 kg)
unted

P-80A specifications -
Engine: One General Electric J33-GE-11 or Allison J33-A-9 with 3,850 lb S.T. (1,746 kg)
Weights - empty: 7920 lbs. Operational: 11,700 pounds Maximum: 14,000 lbs

Engine: One General Electric J33-GE-11 or Allison J33-A-9 turbojet, rated at 3850 lb.s.t. Later production blocks powered by 4000 lb.s.t. Allison J33-A-17. Dimensions: wingspan 38 feet 10 1/2 inches (without wingtip tanks), length 34 feet 6 inches, height 11 feet 4 inches, and wing area 237.6 square feet Weights were 7920 pounds empty, 11,700 pounds gross, and 14,000 pounds maximum takeoff. Fuel load: 425 US gallons normal, 885 US gallons maximum. Performance: Maximum speed was 558 mph at sea level and 492 mph at 40,000 feet. Initial climb rate was 4580 feet/minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 5.5 minutes. Service ceiling was 45,000 feet. Normal range was 780 miles, and maximum range was 1440 miles. Armament: Six 0.50-inch machine gun

Me 262: Empty Weight, w/o armament or ammunition, 8,378 lbs; weight
equipped, 9,742 lbs; weight loaded, 14,101 lb. w/ 396 Imp.
gal. (475 US gal.) fuel; 15,720 lb. w/ 565 Imp. gal. (678
US gal.) fuel.

     Wingspan: 41 ft.; Wing Area: 234 sq. ft. 

P-80A Empty weight, w/ armament, no ammunition, 7225 lb.: weight
loaded, 11,700 lb. w/ 470 US gal. fuel, 14,000 lb. w/ 800
US gal. fuel.

     Wingspan: 39 ft.; Wing Area: 238 sq. ft.

The normal cambat weight of the p 80a was 11.700 pounds, the combat weight of the me 262 was 14.100 pounds.
The maximum weight of the p 80a was 14.000 pounds, the me 262 was 15.720
The loaded weight of the xp 80 was 8.196 pounds, the empty weight of the me 262 was 8.379 pounds+ the fuel load alone was around 4.000 or so pounds(475 us gal) the test states the it was the gross weight that was nearly 2.000 pounds different, so i am almost 100 % sure it was not the xp-80 used in the test.

The recon version of the me 262 (me 262 A1a/U3) was the same as the fighter version, only difference was the recon me 262 had a different nose section witch housed photo equipment instead of guns and ammo, test me 262 number 4012 was given a fighter nose section.

[George_Eller]

@awack

The normal cambat weight of the p 80a was 11.700 pounds, the combat weight of the me 262 was 14.100 pounds.
The maximum weight of the p 80a was 14.000 pounds, the me 262 was 15.720
The loaded weight of the xp 80 was 8.196 pounds, the empty weight of the me 262 was 8.379 pounds+ the fuel load alone was around 4.000 or so pounds(475 us gal) the test states the it was the gross weight that was nearly 2.000 pounds different, so i am almost 100 % sure it was not the xp-80 used in the test.

The recon version of the me 262 (me 262 A1a/U3) was the same as the fighter version, only difference was the recon me 262 had a different nose section witch housed photo equipment instead of guns and ammo, test me 262 number 4012 was given a fighter nose section.

Maximum take off weight for P-80A: 14,000 / 14,500 lb
Maximum gross weight for Me 262: 14,272 lb.

The Lockheed P-80: Shooting Star helped United States catch up with Europeans
http://www.generalaviationnews.com/editorial/articledetail.lasso?-token.key=691&-token.src=column&-nothing

Before the XP-80 flew, the Army ordered two –80As. They had two more feet of wingspan than the XP-80 and were slightly longer. Power was now supplied by a 4,000-pound-thrust I-16, and the gross weight went from 8,915 pounds to 13,780, necessitating an overall stronger structure. The notorious short range of jet aircraft was alleviated somewhat by the development of 165-gallon underwing tip tanks. The second XP-80A was completed as a two-seater to carry an observer for the test equipment.

Me-262 A-1 Pilots Handbook
By F. D. Van Wart, 1st Lt., Air Corps
Date Prepared 10 Jan 1946 Release Date 10 July 1946
Headquartes Air Material Command
Wright Field Dayton, Ohio
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/Me262/262PilotHandbook.pdf

Section 1. C. The aircraft gross weight runs between 10,154 lb. (empty) and 14,272 lb. (with maximum fuel).

Section 2. Take off gross weight and balance

Section 2. d. 1.)The normal take off gross weight is 14,272 lb. 10,154 lb basic plus 4118 lb for fuel, pilot, and ballast.

[awack]

Hi, i now realize that what buzzlightyear is talking about and the test report are two diferent things.
The following is from the book ARROW TO THE FUTURE by Walter J Boynes.

The test at Wright Paterson were run by legendary test pilot Al Boyd. The USAAF compared the P-80 and Me-262 concluding: “Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (907 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter.” The P-80 handled better and had better visibility.

The Army Air Force also tested an example of the Me 262A-1a/U3 (US flight evaluation serial FE-4012), an unarmed photo reconnaissance version, which was fitted with a fighter nose and given an overall smooth finish. It was used for performance comparisons against the P-80. During testing in May-August 1946, the aircraft completed eight flights spanning four hours and 40 minutes. Testing was discontinued after four engine changes were required during the course of the tests, culminating in two single-engine landings." There were NO combat maneuvers done aircraft vs. aircraft

[George_Eller]

@awack

Hi, i now realize that what buzzlightyear is talking about and the test report are two diferent things.
The following is from the book ARROW TO THE FUTURE by Walter J Boynes.

The test at Wright Paterson were run by legendary test pilot Al Boyd. The USAAF compared the P-80 and Me-262 concluding: “Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (907 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number, from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter.” The P-80 handled better and had better visibility.

The Army Air Force also tested an example of the Me 262A-1a/U3 (US flight evaluation serial FE-4012), an unarmed photo reconnaissance version, which was fitted with a fighter nose and given an overall smooth finish. It was used for performance comparisons against the P-80. During testing in May-August 1946, the aircraft completed eight flights spanning four hours and 40 minutes. Testing was discontinued after four engine changes were required during the course of the tests, culminating in two single-engine landings." There were NO combat maneuvers done aircraft vs. aircraft

Thanks for the info awack,

Interesting - there were NO combat maneuvers done aircraft vs. aircraft.

I am very curious to learn more about these (five +) studies. If I am unable to find the complete reports online, I will try to obtain copies through the government archives if they are available to the public.

I will post what I am able to find.

All the Best,
George

[orionRider]

Hi everybody,

I just registered on this forum hoping somebody can help me.
I am currently building a flying scale model of the Me262 V4 (the last prototype with tail wheel). Unfortunately, there is very little data available about this bird.
I read on a russian site (via online translation) that the V4 with code PC+UD was destroyed in an accident on june 26, 1943. It would have been only a few month after its maiden flight.
However, other sources say this plane was presented to Hitler at Insterburg air base in november of the same year.
Digger wrote something about that in this post.

My question is: what happened to this plane after Galland flew it on may 22?

Any help (data, pics, refs, links,…) would be greatly appreciated

[Digger]

The Me 262 V4 first flew on May 15th 1943 and flew a total of 51 test flights before being damaged beyond repair at Schkeuditz on the 25th July 1943, due to overheating engines.

Source Me 262 Volume one by J. Richard Smith and Eddie J. Creek. Published by Classic Publications. ISBN 0 9526867 2 4

Hope this helps mate.

Regards Digger.

[orionRider]

That is just what I was looking for since about six month :shock:

I cannot thank you enough

Now, from what I have read elsewhere, the damaged V4 was probably not dismantled, but instead it was put on static display at the November 1943 air show at Insterburg. That would explain the reports of two planes being presented to Hitler.

The 51 flights are consistent with the life expectation of these early jet engines. I am even surprised that 1943 jet engines built with low grade materials lasted that long :eek:
Anyway, not many German fighters of this period survived more than ten missions, so 50+ flights was in fact more than they needed!

Obviously, the Germans would not have wasted brand new Jumo’s to repair an old prototype while so many new airframes required them. This explains why the V4 was eventually discarded.

I am delighted to learn that my ‘subject’ was not a failure. I hate building and flying a plane that was not successful.

Digger, is there by any chance a picture of V4 in this book?
I have found many photos of the whole stable, from V1 to V6, except for V4…

[Digger]

There does not appear to be a complete photo of the V4. As for the fate of the wreck, again no info, but i’m sure I have the info somewhere. The V3 and V5 prototypes have a lot more focus than the V4, but I will see what I can unearth.

Digger

[Panzerknacker]

This is beautiful

Official Me-262 training film, 1944.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8989132302692103060&q=video+google+me-262&total=33&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[orionRider]

Excellent, thanks Panzer!

[Panzerknacker]

No problem.

Shark vs Cobra:

This Messerschmitt Me262A-1a was flown by Oblt. Fritz Stehle, Staffelkapitän of 2./JG 7, (which was attached to Gefechtsverband Hogeback). On 8th May 1945, Stehle flew this aircraft from Zatec (Czechoslovakia) and surrendered to British forces at Fassberg. While en route to Fassberg, Stehle is reported to have claimed the last air victory of the war with this aircraft, shooting down a Soviet P-39 flown by Lt. S.G. Stepanov, 129 GIAP (22 GIAD) at about 4pm.

Image by Jerry Boucher.

[PA.Dutchman]

An ME 262 Completely restored can be seen at Willow Grove Naval Air Station in Pennsylvania at the small Delaware Valley Air Force Museum. It was completely taken apart piece by piece to restore and make blue prints for 5 replicas.

Here are photos I took of it. It is the last German ME 262 Trainer. It has been flown and was returned to the Museum and 5 replicas are being build for 1 Million a piece.

Here are some of the sites and the instruction German film used to train pilots.

The second reproduction was flown over Berlin in 2005 for their air show. Messerschmidt purchased it.

Training Video (long)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8989132302692103060&q=me262&total=320&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

http://www.vectorsite.net/avme262.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 (This has lots of links to other good sites)

Videos
http://www.youtube.com/v/SSwsZMiDKFw&rel=1



http://www.youtube.com/v/1THzcb-PBtM&rel=1
http://www.youtube.com/v/F508BnlCqMc&rel=1
http://www.youtube.com/v/IhQ2OytBq5Y&rel=1

German
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9204328304330343657]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4288339179198850450

[PA.Dutchman]

This site will tell you the complete story of the restoration and the replicas.

http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

The photos below are the very same ME 262 in 1945 as it was prepared to be brought back to the USA.

It can be seen very lightly the Number 35 painted on the side of it. The restored plane has all the original markings on it along with the number 35.

[Major_Walter_Schmidt]

I hope few of the replias will be of the Me262 b-2 Nachtjagers.<modified me262b-1 to be nightfighters>.

And does the jumo004 work? Does it fly?

[PA.Dutchman]

I understand the five will be Fighters, not the Trainer version. Go to that site and you can get all the information that is available.

Isn’t it one beautiful plane? When you watch the video of it flying it is a site to behold.

[PA.Dutchman]

This should take you to the very video of the Berlin 2005 Air Show and the Replica taxing down the run way and flying over the city.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7620890100890480&q=me%2B262&pr=goog-sl

[PA.Dutchman]

Dear Major Walter Schmidt,

The ME 262 that I posted under German Military had its gun ports covered with some kind of plugs all these years.

When they were taking it apart to restore and make blue prints for the replicas they found the original Machine Guns were still installed.

[George_Eller]

Great pics, video clips, and info PA. Dutchman.

Thanks for sharing.

[PA.Dutchman]

The Germans did some amazing things with amazingly little resources through out the war.

All through the war they had issues with limited supplies, and that helped us to win. God help us if they had unlimited supplies and production as we did.

But here was a new form of powered aircraft, developed at a time when things were hard to come by all over Germany and look what the Germans did in spite of all these limitations. Sure it wasn’t perfect and thank God it wasn’t or we would have been in real trouble.

So the USA and Russia take the all ME 262s they can home with them and what do we do with them? We learn how to make our own jet planes from their ME 262. But we had all the necessary materials they didn’t, and we still screwed up.

At the Delaware Air Museum a Colonel went over the ME 262 piece by piece with me for an hour to show me all the things we used from these outstanding planes to this day.

The swept back wings. We tried to fly one in Korea (Shooting Star)without swept back wings and the ME 262 out flew it in secrets tests conducted by the US Air Force. The little piece on the edge of the wing that moves back and forth on its own is used on every jet fighter to this day. It was first used on the ME 262. The design was superior to our flying jet boxes by GE.

How many American TEST Pilots did not die because of the things we learned and used on our jets from the ME 262? Many many such advancements from the ME 262 spared many Allied Pilots in the years after the war.

Take their battle helmet they first used it in World War I. It was superior to anything anyone else had for the rest of the century. We used the old English Pot helmet in World War I and into World War II. Mean while the German helmet first designed in World War I keeps protecting their heads and ears better than anything we have.

OK now we go int Korea with the same old helmet, then Vietnam and early wars in the Middle East all the time using the old style World War II Helmet. How many men died and were permanently injured because of those old helmets. Finally after nearly 90 years the United States finally adopted the German Style helmet. The one German has been using successfully for nearly 90 years is finally adopted by the US and the United Nations.

So maybe Germany had some flaws in their early jets, but I would hate to think what we would be flying if we hadn’t captured their ME 262 and used them for our own designs.

And again the helmet after 90 years how many Americans died using a helmet that was only good for shaving out of. Too many!!

One more thing. I read a lot about the ME 262, their engine wasn’t necessary a bad design, they lacked the best metals and materials to make the best engine.

If you made the same engine today with the best of materials the engine would work great for a first attempt at a jet powered aircraft. It was in its state better than anything the English or the USA had. We never did get anything into the War to fly against it but more propeller driven planes.

If it was such an inferior plane how come every country in the world was trying to get as many as they could to take home for testing and design after the war. Check it out the US and Russia took all the good jet planes they could get home with them.

They took the U-21 Subs, both the Nautilus and the first Russian subs came from the U-21.

The Space programs were both the result of the work of the German during the war. It was God Almighty Himself that gave us the edge and the win in the end.

Much of our Best tanks and other hardware have their design traced by to a German Tank of the 1940’s.