Messerschmitt Me 262.

World War II German Military
#164

But again it was late in the war the Germans had limited supplies of quality and necessary materials to build the engine the ME 262 needed.

It has been found that had they had the quality materials and supplies and their engine build under ideal conditions it would have done an outstanding job.

But this wasn’t the case so to get the ME 262 up and flying under the worse of war time conditions was quite a feat.

The Replicas and the Restored ME 262 are using GE jet engines close to the very same size and power ratings of the original engines.

However there is a group who is in the process of building a ME 262 with the originally designed engine, but with the best of materials. It is believed by this group the engine would have been successful had they had the time and necessary alloys to build a quality engine.

Britian and the USA had the materials and alloys and they could not come up with a working plane design to come close to the operation ME 262.

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#165

Germany had three viable jet designs as fighters. Compared to two for the British, and only one for the Americans, and none for the Russians.
Germany : He.280. Me.262, He.162 C or D.
Britain: Gloster Meteor, De Havilland Vampire.
America: Lockheed P80.

It is of significant note that the Me.262 outperformed and outmaneouvered the British and American designs. (And as has been mentioned, was doing so years after WW2.)

Therefore, Germany would actually have been wiser to curtail production of the aged Me.109 in favour of the He.280 or the He.162.
The He.280 and He.162 could very easily have served alongside the Me.262, which despite its various problems was nonetheless a superlative aircraft.
The Germans also had three very viable engines on their hands :
He. Os11, BMW 003, and Junkers 004.
Yes each of these engines did have developmental issues, but none were insurmountable.

There was basically only one “Allied” jet engine type, either the RR Derwent or DH Ghost, both of those being Whittle pattern. (The American Whittle pattern copies are essentially irrelevant, being little different from the British forebears.)

Thus, it would have made sense for Germany to have transitioned to a largely jet-powered fighter force, against which the Allies would have basically been defenceless. Therefore, upgrading the piston engine fleet would have been redundant, apart from the cases of perhaps 3 fighter aircraft families, namely:
Ta 152H, FW 190 D9, He.219.

Regards, Uyraell.

#166

The P/F-80 Shooting Star would have been more than a match for the Me262…

#167

Ehm can you please provide more info on P/F-80 Shooting star , maybe a little bit off topic but for first time i meet that name ( i admit i am amateur with the fighter planes ) :slight_smile:

#168

Here’s a thread on it:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/polls/me262-vs-p-80-a-562.html

The P-80 was designed in late 1944 and was almost ready for operational service by the end of the war. It was generally thought to be better than the Me262 as a dogfighter, but missed operational status by a few months at the end of the war. It would serve in Korea, but was somewhat obsolete by that time and the second generation of fighters such as the MIG-15 and Sabre had left the F-80 behind…

Unfortunately, the early prototypes were riddled with problems and ended up killing America’s best ace, Richard Bong, who died as a fuel pump failed on a test flight…

http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html

#169

Sorry to disagree, but that simply is NOT so.

When a production P80/F80 was flown in tests against an Me.262 the resulting report so scared the Americans that it was not published until the late 1990’s.

The Me.262 outperformed the P80 in all flight regimes, and only marginally lacked in acceleration.

The P80 had been designed to fight the Me. 262 but in fact would not have succeeded in that task : which the report makes very clear.

The P80 did have one virtue: it’s construction technology allowed it to be produced quickly, while replacement designs were being schemed. Yes, it would have shredded almost any propeller-driven opponent it might have met in a dogfight, but it would have been a rare event indeed had a P80 triumphed over an Me.262.

It was, among other things, this same report that began a chain of events culminating in the F86 Sabre, which is aerodynamically a clone of the Me.262, employing the same wing, and an HG series rudder. Granted, the Sabre ends up with a single, and better engine over the two of the Me.262: however: the Sabre came about to redress the deficiencies of the P80.

Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

#170

Do you have any links to the report? Because I’ve never seen anything more favorable to the Me262 than it was pretty evenly matched and may have had a firepower advantage. The Shooting Star would almost have certainly have had a significant throttle and engine advantage as piston engine fighters such as the P-51 were capable of shooting down the 262 when “cherry-picking” over Luftwaffe aerodromes due to the engines spooling problems…

The P-80 was also clearly more maneuverable…

#171

To be honest, I’ll have to go digging again, but the report was mentioned in two sources I can think of, off hand.

One source was a link from the site where the process of the “new build” Me.262s was detailed.

The other source comes from a book in which Colonel Watson of the USAF (the USAAF, in 1945, of course) and his jet recovery missions are mentioned. The report is mentioned shortly after the Watson section.

Memory is a little vague at this point (over a decade since I last checked all this) But I seem to recall the comparative fly-off as having taken place in two stages, between 1946 and 1947, after which the Me.262 was placed in storage. Bell Aircraft had been given the contract to refurbish the Me.262 before the flight comparison tests.

For years, in the time of my youth, there circulated a tale that 2 Me.262’s had been refurbished and flown, rather than one, this on the advice of Watson himself. I have yet to find adequate confirmation of that aspect though.

Incidentally, the same report is mentioned in Edward Maloney’s monograph on the Me.262, of which I have a copy, published approx 1967, from memory.

Regards, Uyraell.

#172

Not buyin’ it until I see the report! :smiley:

Everything I’ve heard is the Me262 was vastly overrated and provided the P-80 had worked out all of its early kinks (like a nasty habit of killing America’s best pilots during testing), it would have been a better dogfighter…

#173

the report is posted right here in this thread, page 12 by George Eller.

#174

Errr… this is page 12, at least for me! Post number?

#175

You mean page ten. After reviewing, the problem with the test was that it featured a lightened Me262 Reconnaissance version which was one or two thousand pounds lighter --not the fighter version-- against the XP-80 Which also was the less powerful test version of what would evolve into the P-80A…

The P-80A was almost 3000lbs lighter and more agile…

See this post, as there were several studies done at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio…

http://ww2incolor.com/forum/showpost.php?p=107252&postcount=142

#176

Gentlemen, I was stunned to read on Spiegel’s WW2 page that Germany had managed to manufacture under very hasty conditions and in the last months of the war 1200 of these jets. But they were unable to get many flying effectively.

This caused me to entertain another “what if” scenario. What if, say a couple of years before the end of the war, Germany had the same 1200 or so of these planes manufactured and effectively flying. I just arbitrarily pick that time frame trying to avoid the scenario that involved a frantic effort and last ditch stand.

How would the Allies have handled such a situation if a better planned and earlier effort had been successful? Could it have possibly ended the war in Germany’s favor? I guess I am wondering if these jets were that important a fighting machine and capable of overwhelming Allied forces if introduced at an earlier date.

Just wondered what you experts thought.

Thanks

#177

The jets would not be the problem. Nor even jet fuel. It would be the pilots.

The closing of the pilot schools in 42-43 is what caused the shortage they had more than anything else. And I have no doubt training compenent jet fighter pilots was much harder than those using prop planes.

Deaf

#178

Never the less with these planes even with 10 pilots Germany would have a greater chance no doubt about it - it’s like me in F-18 and you in P-41 , even with some months experience i still have a chance and you not because you will fly so slowly . One thing was missing at the end - the fuel that caused the germans to stop the fighters , otherwise even 100 allied fighters wouldn’t be a problem for formation of ME-262 even with pilots with some months training , simply the Fuhrer didn’t believe the war would turn so badly against the russians that’s why such projects were delayed .If introduced earlier the allies wouldn’t stand a chance with their old planes .

#179

Even with that utopian number of Me-262’s built the Allied would still have total air superiority. They’d still have bombed the airfields and their fighter planes would still have lurked around the German airfields, destroying the jets while starting or landing.

#180

Well, if we assume the Me-262s were effectively deployed as the “what if” supposes, how on earth would allied bombers and fighters have been able to approach German airfields, or lurk around destroying German jets on the ground?

Am I wrong to think that 1200 such planes would be able to defend themselves against bombing and fighter plane attacks? Are you suggesting the Allies had sufficient number of planes to counter the 1200 jets?

At first glance I tend to side with Ivaylo in post 3, ie, the Allies would not have stood a chance. But I am unsure.

It seems to me that of all the “what ifs” I have seen discussed this one involving the actual manufacture of 1200 jets by the Germans coming though at the end of the war is a “what if” that might very likely have realized the greatest consequences had the Germans planned a little better and a little earlier. I always thought they had only a few of the aircraft built and those more experimental models.

#181

Quite correct.

And the 262 had a short range. So they could not have flew far to meet the huge onslot of fighters and bombers. And even then, THE ATOMIC BOMB WOULD HAVE BEEN USED.

Just takes one B-29 to get past those jets. Just one, day or night. Even a British Lancaster could have dropped it.

I think even Adolf Gallad said the jets would have just delayed the inevitable.

Deaf

#182

Just by their overwhelming numbers. Furthermore with jets being busy dog-fighting allied fighters the major part of bombers would have approached their goals.
Allied planes would carry on firing back and in reality more than just one Me-262 was shot down by one of the numerous B-17 gunners. The Me-262 was not invulnerable, you know.
Also don’t forget that the British kept bombing mostly at night time. The need to convert Me-262’s to night fighters would also split the assumed armada.

Am I wrong to think that 1200 such planes would be able to defend themselves against bombing and fighter plane attacks? Are you suggesting the Allies had sufficient number of planes to counter the 1200 jets?

All Allies combined, sure as hell. Besides, it’s purely fictional to suggest that this high number of German jet fighters could more or less be in the air at the same time at the same place.

#183

As far as “what if” scenarios, they’re largely useless to debate. But since we are, we can go on and on (which is why they’re sort of amorphous and pointless). But the idea that the German super weapons would have made much of an impact completely ignores that the Allies, especially the US, were only months from fully deploying numbers of their own jets such as the P-80 Shooting Star and Gloster Meteor; both planes were believed to be superior to the Me262 without its Achilles Heal of very slow take off and landing speeds. Not that 1800 Me262s wouldn’t quickly have been smothered even by piston engined P-51s and Spitfires ‘cherry-picking the goal’ over what remained of Luftwaffe aerodromes. And not to mention Flammenwerfer’s point regarding the complete lack of even minimally trained and proficient German pilots by the end of 1944…