Morality in War: Did Nazi Atrocities Justify Harsh Allied Tactics

You raise the interesting question of why suddenly at the end of a war after people were being shot and bombed and torpedoed and mined out of hand for years in their hundreds of thousands by both sides, the victors suddenly became very formal and legal.

One thing that rarely happened even up to that point was that generals got executed by either side after being captured. Why?

Why did the Yanks have deep moral debates about whether it was right or wrong to blow Yamamoto’s plane out of the sky when they knew where he was going? Some felt it was an assassination and wrong.

When did the same American commanders ever have a similar debate about attacking another Japanese person or aircraft, or committing their own men to battle and death?

What was it about targeting and killing a specific person like any of the many other Japanese they killed that worried the Yanks about killing Yamamoto, and made them and the other Allies want to run the IMTFE rather than just slaughter a few mass murderers the same way they’d condoned the slaughter of millions?

Why did targeting a single important person cause them such concern when they unleashed bombardments on ships and shores that they knew, or hoped, would kill thousands of people?

Was there a form of class privilege practised and acknowledged between generals?

Were the IMTFE trials instances of justice or merely events which needed to occur to confirm in the Allies’ minds that what they did was right?

Was Curtis le May right or wrong when he said that if America lost the war he’d have been tried as a war criminal for the Tokyo firebombings?

Doesn’t his comment suggest that he knew his actions would fail the tests applied to Axis people charged with war crimes?

The unpopular reasoning of the Indian judge at the IMTFE points to more areas for debate about moral and legal hypocrisy, but it also points to areas for debate about the influences which led the Indian judge to his position, as it does about the other judges and the positions they took.

A Brief history of the IMTFE

Starting on 3rd May 1946 and ending in November 1948, twenty-eight Japanese leaders were tried before a panel of eleven judges. The judges came from Australia, Canada, France, Great Britain, India, Netherlands, New Zealand, Philippines, USSR, and USA. Philippines and India gained independence during the time of the trial. The mandate of the tribunal covered acts committed between 1st January 1928[5] and 2nd August 1945.

Article 10 of the Potsdam Declaration stated that ‘stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals, including those who have visited cruelties upon our prisoners’. The criteria to define war criminals did not allow the prosecution of allied forces. The Charter of the IMTFE was a slightly modified version of the charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal drawn up at the London Conference[6]. The three categories of offences tried were:

  1. overall conspiracy to carry out wars of aggression in East Asia and Indian and Pacific Ocean areas;

  2. ordering, authorising or permitting conventional war crimes; and

  3. not taking adequate measures to prevent the occurrence of conventional war crime.

After the examination of over four hundred witnesses and four thousand documents, eleven were sentenced to death by hanging; sixteen to life in prison; one to twenty years’ imprisonment; and one to seven years imprisonment. There were no acquittals, but two died during the trial and one was found to be mentally incompetent.

There were five judges who gave separate opinions[7]. Sir William Webb from Australia (and President of the IMFTE) stated that the fact that ‘leader in the crime’ (the Emperor) had not been indicted must be considered while passing sentences. The French judge Henri Bernard complained of procedural shortcomings and stated that:

‘a verdict reached by a tribunal after a defective procedure cannot be a valid one’.

Judge Radhabinod Pal from India pointed out the necessity of considering acts of Western powers before judging Japan and argued that all defendants were innocent of all charges. Judge B.V.A. Roling of the Netherlands argued that no conspiracy existed and that five of the defendants were innocent. Judge Delfin Jaranilla of the Philippines argued that many sentences were:

‘too lenient, not exemplary and deterrent, and not commensurate with the gravity of the offence or offences committed’ (Hosoya, 1986, p.11).

It is interesting to note that the two most extreme views, of acquittal and more grave sentences came from judges of newly independent countries. It may be pointed out the judge from Philippines had suffered personal injury and loss at the hands of the Japanese (Nandy, 1995, p.64).

  1. Radhabinod Pal’s Dissenting Judgement

Radhabinod Pal was the only judge who raised the issue of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to suggest that the trial was farcical. His judgement was not read out at Tokyo and was even banned for a while. Although scholars outside India have largely ignored Radhabinod Pal’s judgement, the few comments that it has received are widely conflicting. Nationalist historians in Japan have hailed it as a vindication of their utter victimisation[8]. Hideki Tojo, who was Prime Minister during the war and sentenced to hanging, even left a haiku in Pal’s honour. (Nandy, 1995, p.56) Some others have described it as a misconceived attempt to translate Gandhian notions of ahimsa (non-violence) rather inappropriately into international law. Chomsky has hailed it as a courageous indictment of American criminality[9]. More recent historical accounts have again nearly ignored him[10]. Pal is often described as being the only judge on the tribunal who was formally trained in international law (Minear, 1986 and Saburo, 1986). Within India, Pal has been almost totally forgotten by legal scholars and historians. One of the only exceptions, which earned the qualification in the previous sentence, is an essay by psychoanalyst and social commentator, Ashis Nandy (Nandy, 1995).

Radhabinod Pal’s possible motivations will be discussed later while we now turn to the content of his judgement. It is littered with quotes from scholars of international law of the time[11]. His contradictory statements that the victors should be brought before tribunals, while stating that vengeance or retribution are not ethical values, may be described most charitably as being representative of his dilemma. In one of the most revealing sentences, he states that:

‘questions of law are not to be decided in an intellectual quarantine area…we cannot afford to be ignorant of the world in which disputes arise’.

The judgement contains a detailed account of political events of the war. The basic premise seems to be that war in the Far East was the sporadic activity of groups rather than a well-defined conspiracy with clear commanders. This characterisation of war as mere international conflict seems to naturalise the atrocities in war. Pal also tried to justify that Japanese intervention in Chinese territory to prevent a communist take-over would not amount to aggression.

Legally speaking, the judgement clearly stated that new crimes cannot be created under international law and enforced without precedent. Further aggression and conspiracy to commit aggression did not exist as crimes in international law and therefore cannot be created ex post facto. This reflects Pal’s inherent conservative attitude towards the expansion of international law.

Now, turning to Nandy’s article, there are certain startling insights to be found. Contrary to Western authors’ accounts, Nandy’s biographical sketch of Pal clearly indicates that this law-teacher-turned High Court Judge had no formal training in international law (Nandy, 1995, p.70). By placing Pal in the context of the nationalist movement in India, the sympathetic treatment of Japanese may be influenced by the strong Japanese alliance forged by certain Indian nationalists especially in Bengal (Pal’s home state) arguing that the enemy of the British is their friend. The connection between politically active Bengalis and Japan may be traced to their celebration of the 1905 victory of Japan over Russia. In 1946, around the same time as Pal’s appointment, a sensational trial was underway in India of nationalists who fought with Japan against the British army with Nehru as the defence counsel.
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/law/elj/lgd/2001_1/jayasimha

I’d like to see the justification for this too.

Covenanter, I wouldn’t mind an answer to this, either.

Morality in war has to be an oxymoron!

Ceirtanly, first about Morgenthaus case.

  1. We read of the “pogrom” in 1919 when soldiers search the jewish quarter for arms, this so called pogrom does not see any casualities mentioned, the report does not mention the fact that jewish citizens were often symphatizing with soviet Russia and as such were under constant surveillance, the report claims mass robbery but given that earlier it states that jews were murdered ( thats what a pogrom is ) and then claims there were some “bruises” its questionable in nature.

2.The actuall digging up of the graves i cannot really counter and if it was done its appaling however searching of processions and funerals was a routine if an unwelcome job knowing the sympathies of the jewish population.
The Israeli Jews do far worse to their palestinian citizens and the threats are similar to those faced by the Poles from the Jewish population.

Matter of fact 90% of NKVD units responsible for the wipeouts in Poland were jewish in origin during WW2 which gives some scope to the sympathies of the Jews in Poland towards the communist regime.

3.Bereavement and econimic boycott.

Jewish groups attempted to monopolise whole branches of industry, the statue that said 50% polish in fact said that 50% of the business would belong to poles of any non jewish descent ie ukrainian, russian and others.

What is claimed as economical repressions were actually an agressive anti-monopoly policy aimed at the Jews who while portrayed as poor victims in reality monopolised entire regional branches of manufacture and business based on relgious prejudice towards non-jews.

  1. Political repressions.

This one is particularly rubbish, we read that the sole reason of creating a large district is to make Jews a minority, of course it never occured to the anti-polish prejudiced authors that Poland was an organisational mess and creating large artificial urban units simply improved management and had nothing to do with Jews.

  1. National restrictions.

Ok this baby is funny.

Jews were not allowed to advertise in yiddysh nor use it in formal documents… DOH ?! Poland was struggling to become a uniform country without alienating anyone, Jews could use all the yiddysh they wanted provided it did not interfere with the smooth running of public affairs which it obviously did if for example an employer has received a document proving his employees previous experiences in yiddysh.

But wait it gets better.

Jews cannot use yddish while being goverment figures… no sh*t imagine our David or Abraham explaining some elderly polish woman how to do her taxes…in yiddysh.

The philosophy behind this was that as a gov figure everyone has to understand you or you are not the right person in the place, hardly prejudice.

6.Economical prejudice.

Jews complain that just because they form 30% of the cities population they receive only 30% of the food aid, the report in its bias did not mention that Jews in Białystok were among the wealthier groups and most of the food went to the truly needy who were mostly non-Jews.

Prejudice indeed !

That is the deal with these kind of documents, you never knew who compose them and there bias is often obvious.

As for mr Nathan Strauss and his report about pogroms, mr Strauss was a member of the soviet partisan unit which comprised mostly of Jews, between 1943-44 they burned three villages murdering their total population, along with few other Jewish “defenders” there is a comfortable prison cell and a lifetime or rotting in it if he ever comes to Poland.

Personally i think the guy deserves to be friend on an electric chair and nothing that filthy criminal will ever write wont get a comment from me.

The third article i need to deal with separately since its quite long.

Also for the reason of jewish claims of pogroms, theres great money to be had especially in times of turmoil when its hard to prove something didnt happen and far easier to prove it did, without pictures, bodies, graves or names general statements or documents purposefully turned tail like the one i commented, given without context are used to pry money from the polish goverment and gain quiet support from the west since its always better to be “pro-semitic” especially in a goverment that gets elected.

Also part of the reason while jewish communities start things like that is simple guilt, Jews commited massive and horrible crimes against their polish hosts, today its easier to portray themselves as victims rather than face the fact that jewish community in Poland is guilty of soviet guild genocide on Poles during and immidietaly after the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Morel

This fellow is one of the sixteen thousand Jews that the polish govt is after for crimes of murder or genocide on the polish nation, initially the list was far larger but most of these criminals die peacefully in Israel, while Israel invents pogroms to cover what really happened between 1939-1947.

Solomon Morel killed more polish men women and children than all the so called “pogroms” claimed both in reality and fiction and he’s not even the most wanted one, just the most famous one.

In summary, your position is: Non-Jewish Poles never did anything to the Polish Jews before the war except give them the best place they ever had to live, but if non-Jewish Poles did do anythng to the Jews the Jews deserved it, primarily because of things the Jews were going to do after the war began because nothing happened to them before the war apart from things they deserved which didn’t happen but which were invented by Israel to cover up Jewish racial guilt for persecuting non-Jewish Poles after the war began.

Has it occurred to you that the Polish Jews were sympathetic to the Russians in WWII as a result of the persecution they received from the non-Jewish poles? That’s the conventional historical view, outside Poland anyway.

Don’t waste your time dealing with the third article. Anyone who reads your absurdly pro-Polish rants in this and other threads can already predict what you’ll say. You’ve largely said it already.

Still, it was worth reading your last post for what has to be a contender for the award for the most ridiculous statement ever made in a historical debate.

There’s a very good reason that it’s far easier to prove something happened than that it didn’t happen. The evidence supports it, unlike your posts which are long on strongly felt opinion and Polish self-pity and short on evidence and generally devoid of sources.

And I’m still waiting for evidence that the French treated their Jews worse than the Poles treated theirs 1919- 1934.

IMO, the Allied Air Raids during the last months of the war were pretty useless (=not justified). As most of the German Army was captured or without supplies, it didn’t make much sense to bomb the infrastructure anymore, since it just caused problems such: germans could not even deliver food to POW/concentration camps.

_

True, in hindsight.

But it’s like saying that a boxer shouldn’t have landed the last few winning punches after his opponent got up off the canvas after a count a minute from end of the fifteenth round.

If the other corner doesn’t throw in the towel, you keep slugging away until they do, or until you knock your opponent out.

True, but it should be also noted that the Allies literally stopped all but tactical air support (bombing) at the tail end, because there was literally nothing left to bomb…

you won’t know it is dead,… untill it is dead

Or until the referee steps in and stops the fight.

True, but the problem is that there wasn’t any referee in WWII, unlike some minor conflicts where other nations might have some influence in stopping the conflict.

Not that there was much sign of effective referee action, or often even the presence of a referee, in the former Yugoslavia or Sudan or much of black Africa and sundry other places since WWII, like Kenya, Angola, and Belgian Congo, and larger internal killing feasts such as Indonesia, China, Cambodia etc.

Actually i would like to point out that bombing germans is fully justified by the fun way their children scream “mine gott nein !” when their skin peels off after being napalmed.

No seriously Germans and Russians are warmongers and need to be sterylized, as do Americans for being obese burger munching morons without basic geography knowledge, Jews for making everyone to apologize for holocaust when in reality they helped Hitler to power, anyway Poland should rule all of your shithole cowardly holes and i ought to be able to shoot you and your loved ones for even trying to discuss with me.

I. Am. Fucking. Right.

Everyone who disagrees needs a brain tumor to kill him in a particulary painfull and gross way.

Seriously.

Ps. that was worth every ounce of the ban i’m getting, bubye armchair generals :smiley:

Personally, I don’t think you should be banned.

I’d leave your latest posts and encourage you to make more in the same vein as shining testaments to the fact that every nation has bigoted fuckwits in its ranks, and that Poland has done rather better than many other nations in producing you. It confirms your endless proclamations of Polish superiority in every field.

It’s just that your achievements here must be a major embarrassment to most other Poles.

So, just for the record, I and I expect all other members don’t think you’re representative of Polish thinking or the Polish people, but just a sad and bitter little person who crops up in all nations from time to time.

Pity you still haven’t been able to show me how France treated Jews worse than Poland did 1919-34, but historical evidence for your nasty opinions isn’t your strong point, is it?

Probably explains why you’ve been quiet for a while.

Spending all that time trying to find evidence to support rubbish, and coming up empty handed.

And here’s something just to give you a bit of a laugh, which you badly need. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Q1y5EAN4E

Oh, I haven’t banned him. We need exemplar idiots that are disgruntled, but he does have two points (more) points, one for trolling, and one for insults. Three more will do it though. I’m quite willing to tolerate his internet wanking if it gives him something to do and prevents him from joining a Polish right wing party and lighting immigrants on fire…

You mean the klutz can use a match?

Oy! Vey!

Vill vonders never cease? :wink:

First of all, Burgers are great!! Uff, haven’t had one for a while, maybe for lunch to celebrate my American moroness and inherit genetic flaw and inability to use Google maps…

Secondly, you owe your freedom more to America than any other nation you intellectually flaccid little jerk:

http://www.hallersarmy.com/background.php

http://www.sonsofpoland.org/

Ps. that was worth every ounce of the ban i’m getting, bubye armchair generals :smiley:

Oh, never fear. You don’t need to brag to your Polish friends about your martyrdom as of yet. Assuming you have friends…