So now Amnesty International lies? Now their reports are invalid because they are old?
Listen to yourself. Squirming for release. Looking for a way to discredit facts because they prove your insane assertions were blather all along. It’s sad.
Get over it. You assertion that American soldiers are at times wreckless but british are not is BULLSHOT. Please, quit spouting garbage that you believe because you are anti-American, liberal, and gullible.
Go to channel 5 it is looking good.
“He also said two British soldiers were killed in a “friendly fire” incident near Basra when their Challenger II tank mistakenly was targeted by another Challenger crew Monday evening.”
http://www.helenair.com/articles/2003/03/25/iraq/01_basra.prt
Looks like he did not aquire his target so well as you say all British do eh? Shot happens in war dude. The British are not innocent.
So now Amnesty International lies? Now their reports are invalid because they are old?
[/quote]
at what point does Crab lie?
“Hassan said at least 1,200 civilians had been killed since British troops encircled Basra on March 25. He said he doesn’t know how many people died when the fighting escalated last weekend.”
http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/printer_041003F.shtml
WOW. That’s a lot of wreckless British shooting. British cowboys!
and your point is?
Remember, you were biotching because an American soldier fired his AR out the window of a vehicle into the sky to clear the rad while under attack. It seems rather silly now in light of the truth, doesn’t it.
I suggest from now on that you cap your anti-American blather because it stinks up the place. :roll:
Find another place to spout your “Americans are wreckless cowboys” and “British count theior rounds and never fire without an aquired target and knowing what they are shooting at”.
We have seen that it’s BULLSIOT
So now Amnesty International lies? Now their reports are invalid because they are old?
Listen to yourself. Squirming for release. Looking for a way to discredit facts because they prove your insane assertions were blather all along. It’s sad.[/quote]
Where do I accuse them of lying?
Quote my original post in full, including the section where I say they lie in bold.
That is twice now you have openly accused me of lying, with no justification. That’s two apologies you owe me. I await the retraction and PM with bated breath.
To address the point, even though certain persons will refuse to read it:
I noted that the report was out of date, and that investigations after its publication indicated that many of the conclusions reached were incorrect, not least because they did not have the more recent information available to them at the time. Note that ‘incorrect’ means that they are in error, whilst ‘lying’ means that they are in error through malicious intent. I reiterate to avoid confusion to slower members of this site and non-naive-english speakers: The Amnesty Report cited is incorrect on a large number of points, but does not, to my knowledge, contain lies.
The report is invalid in many places because the evidence used to draw conclusions has been superceded.
I would not be shocked if some British troops have committed war crimes, but you’ll need better evidence to show that our doctrine and tactics are as wrong as you claim.
I’m not squirming, it was my first post on the topic and as such I had no assertions to defend. You misrepresent me, again.
As a final point, if Amnesty International are a fair and reliable source of evidence then I have one word for you. Guantanamo.
You mean the only people killed in Basra have been killed by British troops. That’s a very big assumption.
Your defensiveness is telling. I suggest that you guys stop spouting your anti-American blather about US soldiers being wreckless and British so perfect and careful. We have seen that it’s bullsiot.
British soldiers shoot wrecklessly at times, just like any other force.
British forces accidentally kill their own at times, just like any other.
British forces include asswipes who torture captives at times, just like any other.
The British government tries to cover it up, just like any other.
British shiot in a toilet, just like any other.
So against the contention (not mine, I hasten to add before you misrepresent me again) that the US Army drill of firing into the air as part of anti-ambush drills is a poor drill, you cite an example where a drill has been poorly executed (assuming that correct execution of the target acquisition drill would have avoided the friendly fire incident, which is the most favourable assumption for IRONMAN’s argument).
That’s offering an example of a poorly executed drill as evidence that the drill itself is flawed. It’s not actually relevant to the argument about the validity of firing into the air as a reasonable tactic.
Unfortuantely we can’t forget bloody sunday and consequently we have been forced to learn from it, I am not sure what was learnt from the Mai lai, massacre. Ireland is right next door and our troops patrol past that tower block every day I should imagine. therefore it is a reminder for all of us of why we cannot use force in the presence of high concentrations of Civilians, Snipers fired on our troops and our response led to at least one civilian fleeing the scene being thought of as a threat and he was shot from behind. It was a hard lesson to learn for everyone.
Do not belitle the situation in Northern Ireland and do not…(breathe in very slowly)
ready
ready
go
AHHH FUCK OFF THIS IS MY LAST POST. FROM NOW ON I SHALL MERELY OBSERVE AND CRINGE AT YOUR BANALITY.
YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO WAR.
YOU HAVE TRIED TO ARGUE WITH CAREER SOLDIERS ON THE BASIS OF A COMPUTER GAME.
YOU HAVE TRIED TO STEAL AUTHORITY AND CREDIBILITY VIA YOUR FATHER’S WAR RECORD.
YOU HAVE NO MILITARY EXPERIENCE AND YET CORRECT CAREER SOLDIERS.
YOU SUPPOSE THAT WE DO NOT HAVE OUR OWN EXPEREINCE OF THE US MILITARY ON WHICH TO JUDGE, PREFERRING TO BELIEVE IT IS THE LIBERAL PRESS THAT WARP OUR MINDS (BECAUSE CLEARLY NO OTHER PRESS HAS AN AGENDA)
YOU EMBARASS YOUR COUNTRYMEN WITH YOU INSOLENCE AND RHETORIC.
YOU ARE A STEADFAST FOLLOWER OF A PARANOID VISION THAT WE ARE ALL OUT TO SLANDER YOUR NATION WHEN IN FACT ALOT OF IT IS MERELY OBSERVATION.
YOU THINK WE HATE ALL AMERICANS, WE DONT HATE “ALL” AMERICANS WE HATE OBNOXIOUS JUMPED UP COCKS AND IMBECILES OF DUBIOUS HUMAN WORTH WITH IDEAS OABOVE THEIR STATION, IN SHORT IRONMAN YOU ARE THE ONLY AMERICAN I RESENT.
YOU LIVE IN A FREE COUNTRY THAT GRANTS YOU THE OPORTUNITY TO LIVE A FREE LIFE LEARN WHATEVER YOU WILL AND TRAVEL THE WORLD ALMOST WITH IMPUNITY AND YET YOU SQUANDER THIS BY REMAINING THE MOST PAROCHIAL MINDED SMALL TOWN-BIG FISH I CAN IMAGINE.
FINALLY AND LAST BUT BY NO MEANS LEAST, YOU ARE A TROLL THAT PLAYS COMPOUTER GAMES.
INVESTIGATE SEX AND THE AFTERLIFE - translation on request.
soldiers resorted to lethal force even though the use of such force did not appear to be strictly necessary
sUCH AS FIRING OUT OF THE WINDOW OF A MOVING VEHICLE WITH NO INTENDED TARGET!
FUCKSTICKS
Amnest International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=42C1E8D46E7223DF80256E5C00479F27
Killings by UK forces
In a number of cases UK soldiers have opened fire and killed Iraqi civilians in circumstances where there was apparently no imminent threat of death or serious injury to themselves or others. In most such cases documented by Amnesty International, soldiers resorted to lethal force even though the use of such force did not appear to be strictly necessary in order to protect life. The following cases are just some of those studied by Amnesty International.
Numbers added by me for clarity of argument below.
Amnesty International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=42C1E8D46E7223DF80256E5C00479F27
“On 9 and 10 August 2003 there were violent demonstrations by Iraqis in Basra to protest against the lack of fuel in the city. On the second day, demonstrations were concentrated in northern Basra. In Karmat 'Ali, hundreds of youths gathered near the main transport garage in the early morning and threw stones at vehicles passing on the main road and at a patrol of three UK military armoured vehicles attached to B Company of the First Battalion the King’s Regiment. Soldiers opened fire. Hassan Hameed Naser, an unemployed single man, was shot dead, apparently by the UK soldiers.”
Amnesty International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=42C1E8D46E7223DF80256E5C00479F27
“He said that suddenly a soldier positioned on the third vehicle, closest to the garage, began firing randomly.”
"A UK military spokesman commented on the events at the time: “There are four protests in northern Basra. They have turned into some small riots. There has been an instance where some UK soldiers came under fire, and they returned aimed shots.”
Returned fire? On kids throwing rocks???
poll in progress at off topic, place your vote before the mods find it
Amnesty International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=42C1E8D46E7223DF80256E5C00479F27
"By that stage Hazam Jumah Kati’ and 'Abed ‘Abd al-Karim Hassan were both walking back home along the narrow road. The patrol opened fire. Jumah Kati’ told Amnesty International: “Then a man came and told me: ‘There are people dead on the road. They killed two people’. A group of us went to the patrol. One of us spoke English a bit. He asked: ‘Whom did you kill?’ The soldier told him to accompany him [to the bodies]. I said to Captain Tai: ‘Why did you kill?’ He said: ‘I am sorry. There was a mistake. I apologize.’ I repeated the question: ‘Why did you kill them?’ He said: ‘It was dark. One colleague was in a hurry. I am sorry. I don’t accept such behaviour.’”
Hazam Jumah Kati’ was hit by seven bullets in his chest and stomach. He died immediately. 'Abed 'Abd al-Karim Hassan was hit by five bullets in the right arm, the right leg, the chest and lower body and died later from his injuries."
Amnesty International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=42C1E8D46E7223DF80256E5C00479F27
“On 21 August 2003 a soldier from B Company of the First Battalion the King’s Regiment shot and killed Hanan Saleh Matrud, an eight-year-old girl, in Karmat 'Ali.”
Amnesty International
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=42C1E8D46E7223DF80256E5C00479F27
“Walid Fayay Mazban, a 42-year-old driver, was shot dead on 24 August 2003 at a temporary checkpoint in Sikek, Basra, by a soldier from the First Battalion the King’s Regiment. He was the sole breadwinner for his wife, two children and two parents.”