This is blatant BULLSHIT . Very few Europeans are envious of the US. We have too much of our own history, achievements and background to be envious of your very short one. Yes, there was a period after WW2, when we saw the US as a beacon of freedom, but nowadays most of us a glad that we are NOT living there.
And you are right, the conservative interpretation of Christianity is a main point in putting us off, just ask any of the Brits here about Northern Ireland and what they think about the religious hypocrites.
Just a prediction -
Blah, blah, blah, anti-American heathen scum, blah, blah, blah, you’re all blather, blah blah blah, blather, blah, blah, blah, Holy freaking guacamole Batman, blah, blah, blah, don’t know the difference between a hand grenade and an RPG but I’ll argue about it anyway, blah, blah, blah, pointless strawman arguement, blah, blah, blah.
To be fair, a lot of European lefties are envious of the US’s economic record, and the fact that the US is successful, or even exists at all on its constitutional model proves their pet economic theories (particularly Marxism) and social model to be bunk. There’s also a lot of anti-American propaganda on the media in Europe & pro-Europe propaganda in the media in the US. For instance you hear on the BBC in mocking tones about the creationism debate in Kansas (that it should be on the science curriculum), but they’ll never mention that the same thing that the fundamentalists want in Kansas is already law in Holland, and has been for some time. You’ll hear that it’s sometimes hard in the US to get welfare (although almost nobody that /needs/ it can’t get it), but never that welfare in many European countries is so generous & easy to get that many people make a concious choice not to work & take welfare as a career, dragging the European economies down.
The US is still the land of opportunity - Europe’s going down the tubes.
I very much dissagree with that. Just a few posts ago one of the most anti-American comments yet made on this forum was posted - blatant as it can be. I’m not seeing anything that isn’t there. Take Jan for example. Now I hate to single someone out, but crap, it’s so obvious I feel like I’m only pointing to what is obvious. Virtually every post by Jan in any thread that discusses anything that is not devoted to something British, is the equivelent of the following:
“bla bla bla something America has failed at bla bla bla”
“bla bla bla so-and-so in the US government failed to bla bla bla”
It goes on and on with Jan. A 10 year old could see that. You don’t have to be able to read between the lines to see the sentiment of such consistency as that.
But I’d have to say that is one of the clearest examples of anti-Americanism. Most of the rest of it comes in the form of weaving the sentiment into debate. Such as posting criticism of US soldiers by refering to a video that supposedly shows them firing unaimed, carelss shots into the street, and then every British member of this forum jumped on the bandwagon and added their own criticisms of it and it went on and on. Further investigation of that video and other reports about that event on the Internet have shown that the soldiers were simply firing back at their attackers, as is common for both US and British troops when their convoys are attacked. And even once it is discovered that the soldier was only firing back at his attackers, you British fellows were so enthralled with your sentiments that you were unable to say, “Oh. Well that’s different. OK.” Instead, the banter continued, as though he’s guilty of something for returning fire! That’s still pretty obvious, but less than some of the commentary I see here.
But that’s not true. If you go back a bit in this thread, you’ll see that I criticized the US military for not posting a security force at the museum in Bahgdad that was looted, and that it pissed me off. You’ll also see that I agreed that Donald Rumsfeld screwed up by pinching on the number of soldiers sent to Iraq when he needed to send 40-50,000 more. I even said I thought that he should have been fired for it. Is that not criticising something American? You bet. I dislike some things that the US does, and I think there are a lot of things the US should do but does not.
I think what you are not understanding as I am, is that it is the genral flavor of many of the posts here that together are obviously anti-American. You know, there have been probably been, and I am not trying to exaggerate, somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 posts in this forum that are critical of something about America. I honestly cannot say that I’ve seen more than 2 that were critical of anything British, with the exception of my own reactionary posting of reports by Amnesty International in an attempt to highlight the hypocricy of all of the constant criticizing of the US military and claims that the US military is wreckless and does nothing to win over the people of Iraq, which is completely false. But from the mouths of the members of this forum who are British, I’ve seen only 2 or 3 posts that criticize anything British, and those were made in jest at that! That is one hell of a disparity.
Now if I, or Erwin, or anyone else who is not British posts something that is critical of something British, dear God in Heaven, here comes every British member of this forum to rant and rave endlessly about it and call them a moron, idiot, and numerous other insulting names, and all of the personal insults as well, while claiming that British shiot doesn’t stink.
This is utter and sheer hypocricy. It should end.
I have even on 3 or 4 occasions written lengthly posts, like this one, in which I have petitioned you fellows to draw the line on it somewhere, and for us to let bygones be bygones, and start anew, as if niether were offended by the other for anything. It amounted to nothing, each time.
And here in this thread, devoted to debatable subject matters, what is it that has made up the bulk of the thread? Discussion about something that is negative about America! What other subject matters are here? Do you see one single thing negative posted about anything other than something which is American? It even includes the ridiculous insinuation that US soldiers play Duke Nukem because they wear sunglasses for eye protection, even though British soldiers wear them too. This evolves into a discussion about how the US does nothing to try to “win the hearts and minds” of the Iraqis, which is false. Then it turns to twisting the intentions of an Iraqi blogger to mean something anti-American, which it was not. Then it was claimed that British soldiers never make mistakes and kill civilians, which they do. And so on and so forth. It never ends. One insult, and typically completely unfounded claim, after another.
I am capable of criticizing something American. I have a number of times. But the pattern of criticizing only things which are American is revealing, and to anyone who is not British here, it is also offensive, at least to me. Now after so much anti-Ameriican criticism, and so much reaction to it, how are you British fellows going to trust that if I criticize something British that I am not spewing anti-Britishism? How am I to trust you that when you criticize somethiing American you are not spewing anti-Americanism? There has been damage done to the trustworthiness of people’s opinions on things, all because of the consistency of criticism of America being the norm and criticism of Britain being non-existant.
I don’t pretend to believe that anything I say is going to change the attitudes of anyone here. You are all (I think) adults and your attitudes are probably pretty set. But I do hope that if you take the time to read this and think about it, you will at least see the hypocricy and inability of any of you to accept that anything British is unreproachable, and if it’s American it’s gotta be worth criticizing, and that using personal insults and name-calling is somehow acceptable.
Well, I just have seen it in the example of my ex wife, who married an American and moved to California (with her head full of ideas about the land of milk and honey), how easy it is to drop out of the system and how hard you have to work to get a foot back in again.
I make no secret out of the fact that I’m an oldfashioned social democrat (of the Helmut Schmidt line). I consider myself to be an educated blue collar worker, a species which is unfortunately dying out. I believe in a fair days work for a fair pay, I also believe that salaries should be at a levels permitting a decent standard of living.I’m increasingly worried about the growing discrepancy between worker’s and manager’s salaries (e.g. in the 1950s the CEO of a big company would earn about 20 times as much as a skilled worker, but today it is 200 times and increasing. Also, if I fck up on the job, I can expect to get fired. I’ve seen enough examples of CEOs fcking up on the job by bankrupting their companies and getting a golden parachute).
I want to have a social security network that catches me if I loose my job or my ability to work and gives me a chance to get back onto my own feet (three years ago my old boss f*cked off with our company pension funds, never to be seen again. We found out from the newspapers that he had bankrupted the company, even though we had plenty of orders. For three months we were paid by the labour office until another company took over.), and I’m willing to pay for it, but I’m strictly against freeloaders (I like Lenin’s words: “Who doesn’t work (to his ability) shall not eat!”).
I think there are committments, like educating the next generation, which should be paid for by everybody.
I don’t think that a company shareholder is ther pinnacle of creation. IMO, a successfull company is made up out of several parts: Investors, management and workers. If any of them fails, the company will go belly up. I, as a worker, demand respect from my superiors.
BTW, the biggest part of out economic problems in Germany are the expenses for the reunification. Back then Helmut Kohl made the mistake of converting east German marks into Deutschmarks at one to one, even though the inofficial exchange rate was fifteen to one. At this time he was facing an election, with bad polls for him. He wanted to get the votes of the East Germans by includuing them e.g. into the west German pension system even though they had never contributed and since he didn’t want to raise taxes shortly prior to an election, he financed the reunification from the reserves of the social security system, virtually bankrupting it and, because afterwards the social security contributions had to be inbcreased to cover the new demand, making German labour uncompetitive.
The Schröder government was the first German government to tackle the problems and to try reforms, but most were blocked by the conservatives in the second chamber of parliament, where they have the majority, because they couldn’t permit the social democrats run successfull economic reforms where they failed.
What you’ll find is that where anybody posts anti-british ‘blather’ - like the Gurkhas and the falklands - the ‘Brits’ will round on them. It happens that Erwin posted some ridiculous comments about both, and as a result of the resulting debate he is now better informed. People tend to round on you (IRONMAN) because if you see something you disagree with, you charge at the person making the comment screaming and possibly painted blue in honour of the Black Watch, who fought on the Somme like that. :roll: The best example on this is the four page flame war on the elevation for maximum range, where you made insulting and abusive post after post, despite being completely wrong and the other posters trying to explain it.
Erwin has posted things critical of Britain and not been leapt on since the Falklands Debate. It’s partly in the way you conduct yourself in the debate. Telling someone that they are ‘wacko’ and ‘in outer space, dude’ when they have just posted a factually correct statement with supporting references does not endear you to them.
As for leaping at Walther, why? After his first post on the thread, you go for him. He’s not one of the people who regularly disagrees with you and yet you accuse him of all kinds of things. Then again, he is the leader of the Great Anti-American Conspiracy that has been set up by HM Government to bring down the Colonial’s interim Washington Administration by being rude to IRONMAN on a discussion forum.
I dissagree. I think it pertains more to European countries that anywhere else. For example, when the Frensh get pissed at the US, thy do things like burn the American flag. That’s something you will rarely if ever see in Asian countries. And the Middle East? Well, they can hardly be placed into the picture since because the US is a friend of Israel they have always been and will always basically be somewhat anti-American, unfortunately. Besides, they are not Christian predominantly, as Europe is. The greatest amount of anti-American literature in the world is published by Europeans as well. And most of the anti-American propaganda and slant that is published on the Interent is from Western Europe as well, even though Asia is pretty well connected to the Internet for the middle class.
No, I’m afraid that the majority of the anti-American frack comes from Western Eurpope.
You see, that’s just it. The people of Asia or rather outside of Europoe don’t say that. They love American culture and try to mimic it. What you are describing is a sentiment felt by Western Europeans. As for me, my vibe is one of reactionism. When I hear the anti-Americanism, whether blatant or subtle, I react to it, then some of you gripe that I’m complaining about nothing. It’s simple. No anti-Americanism, no reactionism. How simple can that be![/quote]
Im not British aight? get that into your head! Ive never been to Europe so it looks like your claim has failed. Why did you put Asia into the picture I never mentioned them! Middle East is not Asia I do hope you know. and more anti american stuff comes from western Europe? How about Iran, Saudi Arabia, even Iraq, dont you think there are allot more burnt American flags in those countries? People there are allot more willing to give up their lives and attack American targets than people from Western Europe! So the people who crashed the planes in the world trade center where French? dont think so.
To be fair, a lot of European lefties are envious of the US’s economic record, and the fact that the US is successful, or even exists at all on its constitutional model proves their pet economic theories (particularly Marxism) and social model to be bunk. There’s also a lot of anti-American propaganda on the media in Europe & pro-Europe propaganda in the media in the US. For instance you hear on the BBC in mocking tones about the creationism debate in Kansas (that it should be on the science curriculum), but they’ll never mention that the same thing that the fundamentalists want in Kansas is already law in Holland, and has been for some time. You’ll hear that it’s sometimes hard in the US to get welfare (although almost nobody that /needs/ it can’t get it), but never that welfare in many European countries is so generous & easy to get that many people make a concious choice not to work & take welfare as a career, dragging the European economies down.
The US is still the land of opportunity - Europe’s going down the tubes.
I will be moving to the US sooner or later, btw.[/quote]
Now that was well said and I commentd you for it. Let me throw in my 2 cents.
The US flucked up in Iraq 1 badly. Since we devoted ourselves to the war, Bush 1 should have finished the job by taking Bahgdad, instead of allowing us to go through this chit again years later and at greater expense. Bush 1 is a complete dumbass! (I like Bush 2 though 8) )
Also, the welfare/social services situation in the US is probably more flucked up than you might think. Here’s an example. When I was about 19 I visited my mom from the nearby town I was living in and spent the day with her. I took her grocery shopping and the black woman in front of us who was wearing expensive clothes bought about $200 of groceries with Food Stamps. As we left the store behind her, she got into a brand new Cadillac Sedan Deville (a pretty expensive American car, most Americans cannot afford). This pissed me off! In the US, if you are caucasian and especially if you are middle aged (according to government research), you get the short end of every stick. Now we did not need or want food stamps, but I’m refering to other things, like getting a good job and being treated fairly on it. It’s not at all the opposite as some would have you believe. If you’re white, you are looked at as a potential racist and possible rights infringer. If you get into a dipute with a black co-worker, you are automatically in the wrong and possibly repremanded for it, even if you did nothing wrong. It’s flucked up. I have had experiences like that myself when I was a younger man. I blame the libertarians myself, but I am sure there are other causes for this messed up condition.
I dissagree. I think it pertains more to European countries that anywhere else. For example, when the Frensh get pissed at the US, they do things like burn the American flag. That’s something you will rarely if ever see in Asian countries. And the Middle East? Well, they can hardly be placed into the picture since because the US is a friend of Israel they have always been and will always basically be somewhat anti-American, unfortunately. Besides, they are not Christian predominantly, as Europe is. The greatest amount of anti-American literature in the world is published by Europeans as well. And most of the anti-American propaganda and slant that is published on the Interent is from Western Europe as well, even though Asia is pretty well connected to the Internet for the middle class.
No, I’m afraid that the majority of the anti-American frack comes from Western Eurpope.
You see, that’s just it. The people of Asia or rather outside of Europoe don’t say that. They love American culture and try to mimic it. What you are describing is a sentiment felt by Western Europeans. As for me, my vibe is one of reactionism. When I hear the anti-Americanism, whether blatant or subtle, I react to it, then some of you gripe that I’m complaining about nothing. It’s simple. No anti-Americanism, no reactionism. How simple can that be![/quote]
Im not British aight? get that into your head! Ive never been to Europe so it looks like your claim has failed. Why did you put Asia into the picture I never mentioned them! Middle East is not Asia I do hope you know. and more anti american stuff comes from western Europe? How about Iran, Saudi Arabia, even Iraq, dont you think there are allot more burnt American flags in those countries? People there are allot more willing to give up their lives and attack American targets than people from Western Europe! So the people who crashed the planes in the world trade center where French? dont think so.[/quote]
You did not understand my post somehow. Please read it again. My emboldenment.
I dissagree with everthing you said, particularly the above. You see, something like that is much milder thatn calling someone “idiot” and “Tinwalt” and “moron” and other such things. I have been trying not to use similar insults, and only resort to the above when the level of perpesterousness goes just too far.
But isn’t Clinton pretty liberal? I mean, look at this North American Free Trade Agreement that opened the door for US companies to outsource their manufacturing and take away American jobs. That really pissed a lot of Americans, and the fact that he was able to convince Congress to pass it boggled a lot of minds here in the US. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I get the feeling that you are liberal, if you like Clinton and dislike Reagan.
So when I explained why 45° was not the angle for optimum range, the abuse you threw at me was justified?
When I described the powers that the Queen has retained in certain countries as their head of state, the abuse you threw at me was justified?
Given that the above claims by me are indisputable facts, why did you not only argue with them, but verbally abuse me in your response? Is that how you were taught to construct arguments on your philosphy course?
Professor: <long speech, containing such things as a premise, rational argument and then conclusion>
IRONMAN: Holy freaking Guano Professor-Batboy! You’re a freaking wacko! Seriously, dude, like wtf?
Professor: Hmmm… You have fully illustrated the mistakes I have made. However, to make your point stand you must use the word ‘blather’ more often. Try also dismissing the premise as ‘shiot’, ‘chit’ or other mis-spellings of rude words.
Sheeesh. I only made an observation, sort of a question, and you pull a bunch of unrelated crap from a hat and shake it around? :roll:
I use those intentional mis-spellings out of respect for the forum. I don’t approve of using a lot of cussing on the Internet. I would not want to assist the search engines in turining up this site when someone searches for bad language, such as “fuckers”+“WWII” or worse yet, “asshole”+“angle for optimum” :lol:
But isn’t Clinton pretty liberal? I mean, look at this North American Free Trade Agreement that opened the door for US companies to outsource their manufacturing and take away American jobs. That really pissed a lot of Americans, and the fact that he was able to convince Congress to pass it boggled a lot of minds here in the US. I guess what I’m trying to say is, I get the feeling that you are liberal, if you like Clinton and dislike Reagan.[/quote]
Well, the outsourcing is pure capitalism and has nothing to do with socialism. You go where the profit is maximised. Wages in India and China are lower, as a result there is more beneath the bottom line for the share holders.
On the other hand, peventing outsourcing by legislation would be a socialist measure.
If you want to live in a pure capitalist society you’ll have to live with the drawbacks as well. Go back to economics 101.
I concede.
I am wrong, IRONMAN is right. I am consumed with anti-American hatred. I am a twisted individual whose blathering has finally come back to haunt me.
How did I come to realise this? Well, once you have responded to debate with sufficient rolling eyes emoticons, you must be right. Socrates was the first to realise this. The scrolls were lost for many centuries, but rediscovered shortly after Al Gore invented the internet. Thus, in the face of the overwhelming evidence of lots of :roll: I must concede defeat.
But it’s not capitalism in the case of NAFTA. Not for the US anyway. It was an apeasement to Latin American countries stop their griping about the US not buying more products from their coutries when they buy so much from the US. They wanted more economic strenght and griped at the US to get it because the US is the largest importer of their products. It was also lobbied by US companies which are always looking to outsource and save money, and in the end, take jobs from Americans. The decision to do something like that which benefited them more than the US is purely liberal in cause. Moderates and Conservatives would not make such a decision.
