During WW2 the Japanese soldiers said they couldn’t regard the British soldiers as soldiers since they “didn’t fight”. The Battle of Singapore was a brilliant military success by the Japanese against superior numbers and equipment of British infantry (140.000 Brits against only 40.000 Japanese).
Have any idea why 140,000 Brits got wacked by 40,000 Japanese? Something to do with being the best trained military in the world?
although you like to belittle the role of logistics in warfare (you claimed logistics had nothing to do with the victory at Chosin where the USMC were supplied with food clothing and ammunition unlike their Chinese opponents) The Garrison in Singapore had been held for a number of months under close seige by the Japs our supply lines were severed and even if we were to have broken out we would not have had anywhere to fight through to, consequently we were forced to lay down arms.
we were not killed in those ratios! we were merely encircled with nowhere to run, and a heroic last stand was not on the cards - Custer et al, is a poor use of men and resources, as it was the Japs were angry enough when they fiunaly pushed into Singapore anyway. Wars can only be fought when the troops are supplied with food ammunition and objectives, in view of hte situation in the far east we had no feasibly attainable objectives for which to fight.
Shuttup
where is the URL for the nurses website quote? and dont post me any more links that have rr.director as a source!
re - Panzers V Shermans - the armour involved made our weapons futile, if it doesnt pentrate it doesnt penetrate,
I can force a pen through a newspaper but regardless of how many times I hit a telephone direcotry withg a pen I will never get through it! these are not shaped charge weapons in WW2 these are surface explosions agaisnt hte steel there is no reason why sequential hits would be “more” effective.
(metal fatigue and subsequent internal scabbing are negligable as it would (I presume) be cold forged steel)
Like friendly fire? Didn’t I say “sht happens" some time back? OH WAIT. You were griping about Americans then. But when it’s British getting 138 tanks and lots of other vehicles including mobile artillery wiped out by a handfull of German tanks, it’s "sht happens”. :roll:[/quote]
Yes but that was losses through enemy action not through friendly fire dont see the connection.
Please feel free to qoute which Japanese commander/soldier said that, maybe it was one of the cooks bigging it on leave in Tokyo. Feel free to provide a link.
IRONMAN if you roll over and expose your underbelly I will stamp on it!
“Couldnt respect British soldiers because they didnt fight?”
Which respectable country “fought” the japanese civilian population from 30’000 feet?
superior numbers dont always win - “the best trained best equipped” military in the world got hounded by a bloke in flip flops carrying a nailbomb for several years somewhere out east, I cnat remember where? any Ideas?
I would like to dare Ironman to tell this to the face of a Burma vet, no matter if British or Indian.
Jan (very pissed off) :evil:
What are you on about, I was there for Iraq 1 too, didnt you read anything? UK Military aircrew just dont take amphetemines etc to make them stay awake. Theres no need to.[/quote]
And the US aircrews don’t take Provigil either.
The United Kingdom Parlaiment
“Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South):To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, pursuant to the Answer of 11th October, Official Report, column 65W, on Provigil, what the conclusions of the research were, with particular reference to using these pharmaceutical agents during times of hostilities; and if he will make a statement.”[/quote]
I have no idea what if anything US aircrew take, I have not been present in an Ops Room when many US aircrews have been preparing for sorties and I have not served on any US Aif Force squadrons, I only know that UK Mil Aircrew dont take anything.
Sorry for the decent Americans on this site, but whenever you talk to a German WW2 vet, there are soldiers from two nations which got respected:
The British and (grudgingly, because it went against the Nazi ideology of the eastern European “subhuman”, which they were taught in school), the Russians.
The Russians for their capability to withstand and fight in the worst enviromental surroundings and their ruggesness, and the British for their defiance and their fighting capability in the way they used small units.
The German soldiers were envious of American supplies, especially foods, but considered the way US troops often handled situations as cowardly:
E.g. if a British unit would come upon a village, they would sent out a recce detail. If there was resistance encountered, they would go in and clear the village house for house, using infantry, but at the same time causing minimum damage to the civilians, at a higher risk to themselves.
An American unit in the same situation would call in an airstrike or a concentration of artillery and flatten the village until nothing would move anymore, then go in.
I’ve heard this story again and again from various German veterans.
A popular joke with the German Wehrmacht:
A Landser’s dream:
The air force and political and strategic leadership of the British,
the supplies of the Americans,
the winter clothing, the artillery and the tanks of the Russians,
and as opponents the Italians.
Jan
Irn-man
I can tell you how many RAF fast jets are in Iraq = None at all, and thats not breaking Opsec either. Zero…
Best you do some homework then:
just a quick note - isnt that table hotlinked from IRONMANS image server same as teh ship loss diagram?
where did you find the graph IRONMAN and the figures if it was CIA world fact sheet reference the URL
Bullshiot. A 76er will take out a Tiger in a few rounds. Good Lord. They just didn’t hit a darned thing.[/quote]
You have absolutley no idea you trolling mal-informed, unread and inexperienced metal-person.
Now why would 3 shots from a 75mm Sherman V ever penetrate a Tiger 1 at 2000 yards? To correct Walther slightly, the Firefly had the 17 pounder gun and indeed could take on a Tiger at range, but in no way was it still as good.
Please read anything on penetration of shells and you will find out mate. there are many instances of US tank forces suffering the same fate - Kasserine, the Bulge and also in Normandy.
Sorry, I just had a brainfart, of course it was a 17 Pdr, the 6 Pdr was by then quite obsolete.
Jan
OK I’m going, I’ll see if I can reach terminal velocity tomorrow :lol:
Hopefully not seeing as we’re doing static line :lol: :lol: :lol:
Debating with Ironman confuses me. Sometimes I think it is like fighting with a pig in the mud. Both will get dirty and the pig actually enjoys it.
Jan
Jan I cannot agree more, I think he just does it to get his post ratio up! read this if you think the US was any better against the same German enemy:
http://www.3ad.com/history/news/spearehead.west/g3.chapaters/normandy.htm
And before you start - its just 1 unit.
Edited for Sp.
Not essentially true, the 6lbdr had tungsten rounds by this time and was still arelatively good gun, and could still be towed by a Jeep. Definately not a 17 pounder though.
Want to comment on the completely made up numbers you’ve used?
“Wittmann in Villers Bocage”
On 13th June 1944, a week after D-day, following a drive from Beauvais under repeated air attack, 2nd Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 led by Michael Wittmann had 6 Tigers located in the area of Hill (Point) 213 ahove Villers Bocage. His orders were to stop the advance of the 22nd Armored Brigade of the British 7th Armored Division (the famous ‘Desert Rats’) from advancing through the township, outflanking the German line and gaining the road to Caen. Wittmann’s company hidden behind a hedgerow spotted the enemy column, which passed him at a distance of 200 meters. At about 8:00am, Wittmann attacked the British column on the main road, while the rest of his company (4 Tigers as one brokedown) attacked the British forces around Hill 213. Soon after, Wittmann destroyed Sherman Firefly and Cromwell IV and headed south to attack the rest of the enemy transport column. After knocking out 8 half-tracks, 4 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns, Wittmann reached the crossroad with the road to Tilly-sur-Seulles. At the crossroad, he destroyed 3 Stuart tanks from recon unit and reached the outskirts of the town of Villers-Bocage. While in town, Wittmann destroyed 4 Cromwell IV tanks and single half-track and turns into Rue Pasteur. Following up the street, he knocked out Cromwell IV and Sherman OP tank, reaching the main street of Villers-Bocage. At the end of Rue Pasteur, Wittmann’s Tiger was hit by Sherman Firefly from B Squadron and he decided to turn back as being too far forward without any infantry support and in a build-up area. He turned in the direction of Caen to join the rest of his company. On his way back, Wittmann’s Tiger was attacked by another Cromwell IV, which he destroyed as well. Back at the Tilly crossroad, British soldiers from 1st Rifle Brigade opened fire at Wittmann with their 6 pdr anti-tank gun, immobilizing his Tiger. Wittmann and his crew managed to escape on foot towards the Panzer Lehr positions 7km away near Orbois. The rest of his company at the Hill 213, destroyed the rest of the A Squadron of 4th County of London Yeomanry Regiment (“Sharpshooters”) including 5 Cromwell IV and Sherman Firefly, while capturing 30 men. During this short engagement, Wittmann’s company destroyed 4 Sherman Firefly, 20 Cromwell, 3 Stuart, 3 M4 Sherman OP, 14 half-tracks, 16 Bren Carriers and 2 6 pdr anti-tank guns. Wittmann’s attack was followed by another one by Tigers of Hauptsturmfuehrer Rolf Moebius’ 1st Kompanie of sSSPzAbt 101 and Panzerkampfwagen IV tanks from Panzer Lehr but was repulsed by anti-tank guns from 22nd Armored Brigade. Following day, British withdrew from the town leaving it to the Germans, who occupied it for next two months. The British drive on Villers Bocage and Caen was stopped cold by Wittmann’s attack and following actions.
Like friendly fire? Didn’t I say “sht happens" some time back? OH WAIT. You were griping about Americans then. But when it’s British getting 138 tanks and lots of other vehicles including mobile artillery wiped out by a handfull of German tanks, it’s "sht happens”. :roll:[/quote]
See above comments about numbers of tanks destroyed.
Shit happens in war - getting a tank destroyed by the enemy is expected, and something that every soldier makes his peace with before a war. Getting a tank destroyed by the USAF because their pilots can’t tell the difference between the British and Iraqi flags is something different.
The “Battle of Singapore” was indeed a disaster - but how many of the men captured were front line soldiers, and how many were rear area soldiers or local Militia such as the Malaya Regiment, locally raised home guard regiments raised from British men in the area and local natives? The Japanese attitude of the time was to despise anyone who didn’t commit Sepuku before capture, as was demanded by Bushido. If you’d have asked them about the Americans they captured, they’d have said the same thing. They saw all westerners as weak and lacking in honour, not just the Brits.