NDH (independent state croatia) military

[Chevan]

@15.JG.52_Vukodlak

Actually you are wrong on multiple issues…the Hungarians, Italians, Checks, Romanians or whathave-you fought as their own countries, soldiers with their own officers, under their own counties command and with their own uniforms and equipment. These croats (from the 369.) were mostly volonteers that fought as a part of a German unit, the 100th Yaeger division (the Croats were at the strength of one single regiment)…their uniforms , weapons and other equipment was German. The regiment was staffed by mostly german officers that were either “pure” German or Croats of German descent…actually all of the legion was comprised mostly like that…all the way down to lowly privates.

They all (the Croatian volonteers from the 369.) went on to fight at the side of who was still percieved to be the ony ally…as in the only ones that promissed an independent Croatia.
This promise was of course a bunch of lies and here’s proof by a non Croatian source
Gen. Maj. F.W. von Mellenthin in his book “Panzer battles” states:

"…Forty-sixth Panzer Corps of second army swept down on Belgrade from the northwest, and made rapid progress against negligable resistance. The Corps was opposed mainly by Croats, who had been so influence by our propaganda that some units mutinied and greeted us as “liberators”. The main body of the 46th Panzer Corps entered Belgrade on 12 April, while another panzer division occupied Zagreb and was received entusiasticallyby the population…

…On 11 April our army headquarters moved into Zagreb, where we found the population well-disposed towards Germany, a fact undoubtedly due to the efficient Imperial-Austrian administration before 1914. Unfortunately our political leaders saw fit to hand this area over to Italy, in deference to Mussolini’s ambitions. The Italians proceeded to set ip a Croatian state entirely dependent on themselves, and soon alienated some of our best friends."

---

Apparently mister Chevan you have trouble diferrentiating between fighting men and supporters of political parties and or ideas. So lets talk about it, a bit ,so that you may understand us Croats better here opon this subject.

Someone that fought in the Red Army was not automatically a communist…many sources speak of Russian soldiers having distrust, disdain and sometimes even outright hatred towards their own communist regime. That didnt make them deserters, faschists or less of a Russian in any way shape or form…it didnt even make them poor soldiers. Sometimes even your national heroes were indeed people that were cohersed to join the Communist party only for propaganda values.

The same principle goes also to other factions in that and in any other timeframe…so you indeed have many Germans who were never a part of the Nazi party (National Sotialist party of Germany that is). They never liked Hitler and they hated his presumptious behaviour as the GROFAZ. But they stayed in the Wermacht or luftwaffe and fought like praiseworthy soldiers…just like many Russians have on the opposite side.

And so, is it so unbelievable to you that a bunch of Croats like us set asside the ideologies ands propaganda of the time and “make” heroes of men that went on to fight for our Country…men that lived, fought and died honorably?

I put the parenthesis on make because we did not make them heroes…they already were heroes we merely acknowledge their struggles.

In the end I guess we are all entitled to our subjective oppinions but none of us have the right to our own facts.

Read my answer is here
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4417&page=5

[15.JG.52_Vukodlak]

@Egorka

Hello!

Were the Croation units formed as volontiers as for example in Denmark, Nederllands, ect?
Or were they forced by Germans to defend Croatian interests almost 2000 km away from the Motherland?

The members of the 369. were volonteers and is one of two infantry units sent as volonteers to the eastern front. Soon after its formation the Italians started to complain and demand that since Croats went to fight for Germans then they must fight for Italy as well. The intended replacments for the 369. that were in training in austria were then rerouted to Italy for equipment and reorganisation…the Italians called it the “Legione Croata Autotransportabile” or the “Mechanized Croatian Legion” and they were attached to the 3rd Celere Division “Principe Amedeo Duca d’Aosta”. This unit was completely destroyed (overrun after they were out of ammunition) fighting on the Don.

These were the only two infantry volonteer units (both at regiment strength) that Croatia had fighting outside Croatia…as part of the NDH regimes efforts. There were also the AA Legion (that was never really formed as such) the 15.(kroat)\JG.52 fighter legion the bomber legion and a naval legion. After the initial two 369. and the “Legione Croata Autotransportabile” were destroyed most of the personell was indeed drafted and assigned to the units. The reason why the Naval legion was formed is that the NDH didnt have permission from the Italians to have a navy at all. All of these units had sub par armaments and were plaged by poor logistical support…so in the 15.JG.52 when the rest of the squadron was flying in BF109g variants the Croats received the almost obsolete Bf109e-4 from the failed german african campaign.

Oh, and no most of these men were not Nazi, nor Croatian “pro” Nazi oriented.

[Egorka]

Hi Vukodlak,

Oh, and no most of these men were not Nazi, nor Croatian “pro” Nazi oriented.

Please do not take it as a provocation.
But do you also have the same high opinion about russian volontiers that fought for Serbs in the 1990s? Neither of them were nazi too!

Peace and love!

[15.JG.52_Vukodlak]

@Egorka

Hi Vukodlak,

Please do not take it as a provocation.
But do you also have the same high opinion about russian volontiers that fought for Serbs in the 1990s? Neither of them were nazi too!

Peace and love!

Hey Egorka,
I am seldom ever offended by an honest question but I do appreciate your distinction and tactful approach.

And to answer your question no in truth I dont. They, I assume were the same as some of the British, French, German and other foerign national volonteers that came as individuals that fought on Croatias side in that conflict. Not much better than guns for hire and adventurers mostly…at least the ones that I have personally met. I am not personally equainted with any Russians that did that for Serbia or their exploits, so I can’t comment on what kind of men they were. They were misguided and made a poor choice in picking a side is all I know.

I hold in much greater esteem the Serbs who fought alongside my countrymen. Truth be told I even hold in good esteem some of the Serbs we fought against just for the principles and restraint that they showed during the conflict…warriors like these are a rare breed everywhere.

[Egorka]

Vukodlak,

But what difference do you see between the members of 369th Croatian division in Stalingrad and the Russian volunteers in the Croatia in 1990s?

I can not say I speak with much knowledge, but their roles look the same to me. The later might even have better image in my eyes, because they (the one guy I know about) thought they are helping a weak side. I do not think those Croats joined 369th division because they thought that Germany was weak and needed help.

You see we have several key points similar: were volunteers, consciously went 1000 km from their land, helped foreign country.

Actually I am not judging either of them. Either could have clean conscious if did not commit purpusfull crimes. But the role was tragic and probably not what they themself intendet to be.

[15.JG.52_Vukodlak]

@Egorka

Vukodlak,

But what difference do you see between the members of 369th Croatian division in Stalingrad and the Russian volunteers in the Croatia in 1990s?

I can not say I speak with much knowledge, but their roles look the same to me. The later might even have better image in my eyes, because they (the one guy I know about) thought they are helping a weak side. I do not think those Croats joined 369th division because they thought that Germany was weak and needed help.

You see we have several key points similar: were volunteers, consciously went 1000 km from their land, helped foreign country.

Actually I am not judging either of them. Either could have clean conscious if did not commit purpusfull crimes. But the role was tragic and probably not what they themself intendet to be.

I am not sure what you are asking of me here. So Ill just reiterate and expand.

The difference between the two (in my eyes) is that I dont know jack about who those russian volonteers were or what they were like…and I have no opinion on them due to a lack of information.

Lack of information (on your friends behalf) is also when you describe that this friend of yours went to help a weak side…the Serbs had the JNA which was the third or fourth most powerfull military (if memory servs me right) in Europe at that time… and were fighting against Croatian civillians mostly.

Thirdly the 369. wasnt a division but a regiment, that was assigned to the 100th Jaeger division. After Stalingrad the Regiment was disbanded.

After that a new division strength unit was formed and manned by the intended replacements for the original 369. and survivors from the original 369. that fought at Stalingrad. This new division was named the 369. Vrazja Divizija (the devils division) in honor of the former “369. Kroatichen Verstaken Regiment” also known as the Croatian Volonteer Legion (or Hrvatska Legija in Croatian) and also the nickname “Vrazja” was given to it by its members in honor of a memory of a mostly Croat Austro-Hungarian Division that bore the same name and fought in WW1. This new 369. division after its forming fought only inside Croatia’s borders and included not volonteers but mostly drafted personell that was assigned to it.

And I really fail to see any similarities in the political situation of Croatia at the beguinning of WW2 as a caouse for Croats volonteering and and the political sitation that led Russian volonteers to Serbia in the 90-ties.

[Egorka]

@15.JG.52_Vukodlak

I am not sure what you are asking of me here. So Ill just reiterate and expand.

The difference between the two (in my eyes) is that I dont know jack about who those russian volonteers were or what they were like…and I have no opinion on them due to a lack of information.

Lack of information (on your friends behalf) is also when you describe that this friend of yours went to help a weak side…the Serbs had the JNA which was the third or fourth most powerfull military (if memory servs me right) in Europe at that time… and were fighting against Croatian civillians mostly.

Thirdly the 369. wasnt a division but a regiment, that was assigned to the 100th Jaeger division. After Stalingrad the Regiment was disbanded.

After that a new division strength unit was formed and manned by the intended replacements for the original 369. and survivors from the original 369. that fought at Stalingrad. This new division was named the 369. Vrazja Divizija (the devils division) in honor of the former “369. Kroatichen Verstaken Regiment” also known as the Croatian Volonteer Legion (or Hrvatska Legija in Croatian) and also the nickname “Vrazja” was given to it by its members in honor of a memory of a mostly Croat Austro-Hungarian Division that bore the same name and fought in WW1. This new 369. division after its forming fought only inside Croatia’s borders and included not volonteers but mostly drafted personell that was assigned to it.

And I really fail to see any similarities in the political situation of Croatia at the beguinning of WW2 as a caouse for Croats volonteering and and the political sitation that led Russian volonteers to Serbia in the 90-ties.

Hi Vukodlak,

Vuko = wolf, right? Dlak = ?

The guy I reffered is not someone I know, I just read his diary on the Internet. I vaigly remember that they were up to app. 50 people in their “russian” brigade. And he went to Serbia as voluntier (which was absolutely illegal in Russia) because he wanted to help a weaker side. He thought at least like that and some others he mentioned.

I just mean that those Croats that voluntiered (how many?) and ended up in Stalingrad, do you think their actions are of different nature compared to those russian voluntiers? Do not you think what they did was very similar?

Just want to know your opinion as I don’t know much about the conflict on Balkans in the 1990s.

Thanks!

[15.JG.52_Vukodlak]

@Egorka

Hi Vukodlak,

Vuko = wolf, right? Dlak = ?

The guy I reffered is not someone I know, I just read his diary on the Internet. I vaigly remember that they were up to app. 50 people in their “russian” brigade. And he went to Serbia as voluntier (which was absolutely illegal in Russia) because he wanted to help a weaker side. He thought at least like that and some others he mentioned.

I just mean that those Croats that voluntiered (how many?) and ended up in Stalingrad, do you think their actions are of different nature compared to those russian voluntiers? Do not you think what they did was very similar?

Just want to know your opinion as I don’t know much about the conflict on Balkans in the 1990s.

Thanks!

In the broadest sense, and with th lack of information…yep, I guess that it would be kinda sorta the same.

Vukodlak…Vuk = wolf; Dlak = hary so literally it would be a hary wolf…but it translates as Werewolf.

[Panzerknacker]

Some color plates ( not very detailed scans, that is for sure) of the book “Foreign Volunteers in the Whermacht” by Carlos Caballero Jurado.

[skoks]

The croats have been fighting for centuries for a free country and only God knows how they survived.They are the best fighters in the world(in my opinion)

srry i only read the starting of the chat i wasnt on topic

[skoks]

panzerknacker nice pics which book are those from???I don’t know much about croat history or politics but im on this forum to find out:)

[Panzerknacker]

The book is quoted above “Foreing volunteers in the Whermacht” by Carlos Caballero Jurado.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=Q5243

Welcome to our forum by the way.:rolleyes:

[Croat]

kako dobiješ činove ovo privat sargent i to, how can i get i higher rank like sargent or corporal:confused:

[Panzerknacker]

Simply participating in the forum, but avoid any spam in order to get the ranks :rolleyes:

[Croat]

Thank you what’s a spam

[Panzerknacker]

Spam is a repetitive, senceless, and or advertising post.

[Croat]

Za dom spremni!

[tankgeezer]

I am sorry that I cannot understand the politics of who was with whom in the war, in the places, and battles you all speak of. I am also Croatian through my Father’s side, His mother was Croatian,maiden name Snajow, from a village named Clana. His Father was from Germany, later Czech, or is it the other way round. at any rate, He left his ancestral home, Raspenau, which is the name of the Barony his family had held.I dont know if the title is yet exstant. The Family name is Raspe. He left all of that behind, and walked eventually into Croatia, and settled there. also in Clana. He and his future wife emigrated to the U.S. in 1906. But, they didnt actually meet or know of each other until after they were both here. I am a second generation American, my father being the first. I dont know anything more about the history of Croatia, so reading your posts is a great pleasure for me. Thank you all. - Raspenau -

[Croat]

Možemo mi i na hrvatskom pričat a?

[Kato]

I have a question to Croats. A bit off the topic. But what are the origins of the Croation nation. I’ve heard the Croats origianally lived in the Carpathians in the territories of modern Ukraine and by the IX century a half of the nation had moved to the Balkans and a half of them remained and later contributed to creating the Ukrainian nation. Or is it incorrect information?