hey!,blockead hasn`t nothing to do there!.
but international playboy 8)
Tinwalt, again, using a wpn in the assault does not make it an assault rifle, otherwise the Brown Bess, Martini-Henry, SMLE, No.4 etc etc etc would be classed as such. Sheesh! Get with the programme!
It could be worse, I suppose - you could be using the Brady Campaign definition (more than 2 out of: pistol grip, flash suppressor, det. mag, bayonet mount, folding stock)…
By that rational, swords and lances are now assault rifles because some of the Light Brigade won the Victoria Cross during an assault, for which their weapon were ideally suited.
Also now reclassified as assault rifles - Lancaster bombers (several pilots won VCs during the aerial assault on Germany in a weapon that was designed to do it, Self Loading Rifle (FN-FAL/L1) which Lt Col H Jones of the Parachute Regiment was carrying during an assault on Argentine positions in 1982 (he won the VC to), as well Lee-Enfield 0.303in rifles, Sten sub machine guns, Spitfires, Mosquito (bomber and fighters), Martini Henry repeating rifles and several different types of ship, all of which were weapons that helped their user to win the VC during an assault of one kind or another.
Medics & platoon commanders, you say? What, you mean people whose standard wpn is the M1 carbine?
I’m sure you’ll find plenty of WW2 era citations for people using Garands, BARs, Thompsons, M3 grease guns etc.
Why this obsession? I know they’re lovely to shoot (have you ever shot one?)
We’ve already ascertained that the M2 carbine technically falls within the definition (select fire, intermediate cartridge), but its effective range is just not up to the job. Remember that the whole concept of an assault rifle is to replace the two types of personal wpn (i.e. rifle and SMG) with one system that can do both jobs - this is what the Germans planned to do, the Russkies were the 1st to do, and almost everyone else has done since. The M2 carbine does not fill this requirement - if it had, the US would have ditched the Garand and the SMGs, since this would simplify parts, spares and ammunition logistics. The effective range is just not up to the rôle, so they didn’t do it!
The M1 carbine, however, does not even fall within the broad definition, so STFU about it.
:roll:
Man of Goat, (since I am a “Tinwalt” to you, you are officially “Man of Goat”!)
You have trouble believing that many of MOH recipients in WWII used an M1 Carbine to earn it? There is a reason for that, you see. Those men acted with valor and courage to assult the enemy and make a profound differece for thier fellow soldiers. Since the M1 Carbine is suited to an assult role and the M1 Garand is not, you can see why those men who were using a carbine, or men who picked one up to conduct their assult and did those acts of valor and courage, represent a respectable percentage of those who received the citations. It’s really very simple, you see.
Earning the citation requires some act of extreme valor and/or courage that makes a profound difference. Assulting enemy positions and wiping them out, qualifies for consideration of such a citation. Is it really any wonder to you why many of those men who assulted enemy positions did so using an M1 Carbine? It really should not confounded you so.
Surely. But how does that take away from the fact that many were ararded to men using an M1 Carbine in an assult role?
Now you guys are taking this thing way off-topic, so let’s stick to the topic shall we? I can’t help your bumfuzzlement over the success of the M1 Carbine in combat or as an assult weapon. You’ve already proven that it simply will not seep into your skull. But we really do need to stay on topic -
Outstanding Soldiers of WW2.
You’re confusing a wpn with a man’s bravery…
You’ve made claims that more citations were for chaps using carbines - why not provide some figures to back yourself up? You’ve got to do better than just claim it.
Ironman, you’ve been proved a halfwit by so many people now, why don’t you just come clean? You’re 12 years old aren’t you? It’s nothing to be ashamed of, you’ll grow up one day. We don’t hate you for it, we just want you to be honest. One day you’ll be a big enough boy to join the army or learn about shooting guns, instead of playing computer games, but until that time you really ought to live your childhood.
Gerard Ross Norton - Victoria Cross
Country: South African
The following information is taken from Wikipedia:
"He was 28 years old, and a Lieutenant in the Kaffrarian Rifles, South African Forces, attd. 1/4th Bn., The Hampshire Regiment (later The Royal Hampshire Regiment) during the Second World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.
On 31 August 1944 during the attack on Monte Gidolfo, Italy, Lieutenant Norton’s platoon was pinned down by heavy fire. On his own initiative and with complete disregard for his own safety, he advanced alone and attacked the first machine-gun emplacement, killing the crew of three. He then went on to the second position containing two machine-guns and 15 riflemen, and wiped out both machine-gun nests, killing or taking prisoner the remainder of the enemy. Throughout these attacks he was continuously under fire from a self-propelled gun, nevertheless he calmly went on to lead his platoon against the remaining enemy positions.
He later achieved the rank of Captain. Gerard Ross Norton died on 29 October 2004."
Quentin George Murray Smythe - Victoria Cross
Country: South African
The following information is taken from Wikipedia:
"He was 25 years old, and a Sergeant in the Royal Natal Carabineers, South African Forces during the Second World War when the following deed took place for which he was awarded the VC.
On 5 June 1942 in the Alem Hamza area, Western Desert, Egypt, during an attack on an enemy strong-point in which his officer was severely wounded, Sergeant Smythe took command of the platoon although he was himself wounded in the head. When our troops came under enfilade fire from an enemy machine-gun nest he attacked it with hand grenades, capturing the crew. Although weak from loss of blood, he continued to lead the advance and stalking an anti-tank position, he gain attacked and captured it single-handed killing several of the enemy.
London Gazette, 11 September 1942. Alem Hamza, Libya, 5 June 1942, Sergeant Quentin George Murray Smythe, Royal Natal Caribineers, South African Forces. Although handicapped by a wound in his forehead, causing much loss of blood, Smythe managed single handedly to obliterate a machine gun post, taking all the surviving crew prisoner. Then, again single-handedly and armed only with rifle and bayonet, he promptly did the same with an enemy anti-tank gun crew, after which he consolidated the position. However, because of the deterioration of the situation elsewhere, Smythe found himself ordered to withdraw. In spite of a vigorous attempt by the enemy to cut him off, he managed to lead his men back to their lines. It was for this action Captain Smythe was awarded the Victoria Cross."
DUNHAM, RUSSELL E. - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company I, 30th Infantry, 3d Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Kayserberg, France, 8 January 1945. Entered service at: Brighton Ill. Born: 23 February 1920, East Carondelet, Ill. G.O. No.: 37, 11 May 1945. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at risk of life above and beyond the call of duty. At about 1430 hours on 8 January 1945, during an attack on Hill 616, near Kayserberg, France, T/Sgt. Dunham single-handedly assaulted 3 enemy machineguns. Wearing a white robe made of a mattress cover, carrying 12 carbine magazines and with a dozen hand grenades snagged in his belt, suspenders, and buttonholes, T/Sgt. Dunham advanced in the attack up a snow-covered hill under fire from 2 machineguns and supporting riflemen. His platoon 35 yards behind him, T/Sgt. Dunham crawled 75 yards under heavy direct fire toward the timbered emplacement shielding the left machinegun. As he jumped to his feet 10 yards from the gun and charged forward, machinegun fire tore through his camouflage robe and a rifle bullet seared a 10-inch gash across his back sending him spinning 15 yards down hill into the snow. When the indomitable sergeant sprang to his feet to renew his 1-man assault, a German egg grenade landed beside him. He kicked it aside, and as it exploded 5 yards away, shot and killed the German machinegunner and assistant gunner. His carbine empty, he jumped into the emplacement and hauled out the third member of the gun crew by the collar. Although his back wound was causing him excruciating pain and blood was seeping through his white coat, T/Sgt. Dunham proceeded 50 yards through a storm of automatic and rifle fire to attack the second machinegun. Twenty-five yards from the emplacement he hurled 2 grenades, destroying the gun and its crew; then fired down into the supporting foxholes with his carbine dispatching and dispersing the enemy riflemen. Although his coat was so thoroughly blood-soaked that he was a conspicuous target against the white landscape, T/Sgt. Dunham again advanced ahead of his platoon [b]in an assault on enemy positions[b] farther up the hill. Coming under machinegun fire from 65 yards to his front, while rifle grenades exploded 10 yards from his position, he hit the ground and crawled forward. At 15 yards range, he jumped to his feet, staggered a few paces toward the timbered machinegun emplacement and killed the crew with hand grenades. An enemy rifleman fired at pointblank range, but missed him. After killing the rifleman, T/Sgt. Dunham drove others from their foxholes with grenades and carbine fire. Killing 9 Germans–wounding 7 and capturing 2–firing about 175 rounds of carbine ammunition, and expending 11 grenades, T/Sgt. Dunham, despite a painful wound, spearheaded a spectacular and successful diversionary attack.
COOLIDGE, CHARLES H. - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization: Technical Sergeant, U.S. Army, Company M, 141st Infantry, 36th Infantry Division. Place and date: East of Belmont sur Buttant, France, 2427 October 1944. Entered service at: Signal Mountain, Tenn. Birth: Signal Mountain, Tenn. G.O. No.: 53, July 1945. Citation: Leading a section of heavy machineguns supported by 1 platoon of Company K, he took a position near Hill 623, east of Belmont sur Buttant, France, on 24 October 1944, with the mission of covering the right flank of the 3d Battalion and supporting its action. T/Sgt. Coolidge went forward with a sergeant of Company K to reconnoiter positions for coordinating the fires of the light and heavy machineguns. They ran into an enemy force in the woods estimated to be an infantry company. T/Sgt. Coolidge, attempting to bluff the Germans by a show of assurance and boldness called upon them to surrender, whereupon the enemy opened fire. With his carbine, T/Sgt. Coolidge wounded 2 of them. There being no officer present with the force, T/Sgt. Coolidge at once assumed command. Many of the men were replacements recently arrived; this was their first experience under fire. T/Sgt. Coolidge, unmindful of the enemy fire delivered at close range, walked along the position, calming and encouraging his men and directing their fire. The attack was thrown back. Through 25 and 26 October the enemy launched repeated attacks against the position of this combat group but each was repulsed due to T/Sgt. Coolidge’s able leadership. On 27 October, German infantry, supported by 2 tanks, made a determined attack on the position. The area was swept by enemy small arms, machinegun, and tank fire. T/Sgt. Coolidge armed himself with a bazooka and advanced to within 25 yards of the tanks. His bazooka failed to function and he threw it aside. Securing all the hand grenades he could carry, he crawled forward and inflicted heavy casualties on the advancing enemy. Finally it became apparent that the enemy, in greatly superior force, supported by tanks, would overrun the position. T/Sgt. Coolidge, displaying great coolness and courage, directed and conducted an orderly withdrawal, being himself the last to leave the position. As a result of T/Sgt. Coolidge’s heroic and superior leadership, the mission of this combat group was accomplished throughout 4 days of continuous fighting against numerically superior enemy troops in rain and cold and amid dense woods.
For those of you reading this who have never seen a simple question avoided, that was what it looks like!
Consequently I shall repeat the question:
That is true Mr. Schätzer, it is a light rifle, and as such, it did not shoot pistol ammunition. Albiet a weak rifle, but effective at it’s maximum effective range, as are all weapons. It may not be effective at 600m, like a standard or sniper rifle, but it was a dandy little weapon.
does this quote mean that a standard rifle is effective at 600 metres unlike the M1 carbine, IRONMAN?
and below is the emboldened script of TURGIDPHALLUSs post.
France.
carrying 12 carbine magazines.
crawled 75 yards under heavy direct fire toward the timbered emplacement shielding the left machinegun. As he jumped to his feet 10 yards from the gun and charged forward.
His carbine empty.
proceeded 50 yards through a storm of automatic and rifle fire to attack the second machinegun.
then fired down into the supporting foxholes with his carbine dispatching and dispersing the enemy riflemen.
again advanced ahead of his platoon in an assault on enemy positions[b] farther up the hill. Coming under machinegun fire from 65 yards to his front, while rifle grenades exploded 10 yards from his position, he hit the ground and crawled forward. At 15 yards range, he jumped to his feet, staggered a few paces toward the timbered machinegun emplacement and killed the crew with hand grenades. An enemy rifleman fired at pointblank range, but missed him. [b]After killing the rifleman, T/Sgt. Dunham drove others from their foxholes with grenades and carbine fire
175 rounds of carbine ammunition
HARRELL, WILLIAM GEORGE - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization: Sergeant, U.S. Marine Corps, 1st Battalion, 28th Marines, 5th Marine Division. Place and date: Iwo Jima, Volcano Islands, 3 March 1945. Entered service at: Mercedes, Tex. Born: 26 June 1922, Rio Grande City, Tex. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as leader of an assault group attached to the 1st Battalion, 28th Marines, 5th Marine Division during hand-to-hand combat with enemy Japanese at Iwo Jima, Volcano Islands, on 3 March 1945. Standing watch alternately with another marine in a terrain studded with caves and ravines, Sgt. Harrell was holding a position in a perimeter defense around the company command post when Japanese troops infiltrated our lines in the early hours of dawn. Awakened by a sudden attack, he quickly opened fire with his carbine and killed 2 of the enemy as they emerged from a ravine in the light of a star shellburst. Unmindful of his danger as hostile grenades fell closer, he waged a fierce lone battle until an exploding missile tore off his left hand and fractured his thigh. He was vainly attempting to reload the carbine when his companion returned from the command post with another weapon. Wounded again by a Japanese who rushed the foxhole wielding a saber in the darkness, Sgt. Harrell succeeded in drawing his pistol and killing his opponent and then ordered his wounded companion to a place of safety. Exhausted by profuse bleeding but still unbeaten, he fearlessly met the challenge of 2 more enemy troops who charged his position and placed a grenade near his head. Killing 1 man with his pistol, he grasped the sputtering grenade with his good right hand, and, pushing it painfully toward the crouching soldier, saw his remaining assailant destroyed but his own hand severed in the explosion. At dawn Sgt. Harrell was evacuated from a position hedged by the bodies of 12 dead Japanese, at least 5 of whom he had personally destroyed in his self-sacrificing defense of the command post. His grim fortitude, exceptional valor, and indomitable fighting spirit against almost insurmountable odds reflect the highest credit upon himself and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.
KELLEY, OVA A. - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization: Private, U.S. Army, Company A, 382d Infantry, 96th Infantry Division. Place and date: Leyte, Philippine Islands, 8 December 1944. Entered service at: Norwood, Mo. Birth: Norwood, Mo. G.O. No.: 89 19 October 1945. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Before dawn, near the edge of the enemy-held Buri airstrip, the company was immobilized by heavy, accurate rifle and machinegun fire from hostile troops entrenched in bomb craters and a ditch less than 100 yards distant. The company commander ordered a mortar concentration which destroyed 1 machinegun but failed to dislodge the main body of the enemy. At this critical moment Pvt. Kelley, on his own initiative, left his shallow foxhole with an armload of hand grenades and began a 1-man assault on the foe. Throwing his missiles with great accuracy, he moved forward, killed or wounded 5 men, and forced the remainder to flee in a disorganized route. He picked up a M-1 rifle and emptied its clip at the running Japanese, killing 3. Discarding this weapon, he took a carbine and killed 3 more of the enemy. Inspired by his example, his comrades followed him in a charge which destroyed the entire enemy force of 34 enlisted men and 2 officers and captured 2 heavy and 1 light machineguns. Pvt. Kelley continued to press the attack on to an airstrip, where sniper fire wounded him so grievously that he died 2 days later. His outstanding courage, aggressiveness, and initiative in the face of grave danger was an inspiration to his entire company and led to the success of the attack.
21 posts from IRONINGMAN so far.
That is true Mr. Schätzer, it is a light rifle, and as such, it did not shoot pistol ammunition. Albiet a weak rifle, but effective at it’s maximum effective range, as are all weapons. It may not be effective at 600m, like a standard or sniper rifle, but it was a dandy little weapon.
does this quote mean that a standard rifle is effective at 600 metres unlike the M1 carbine, IRONMAN?
McGRAW, FRANCIS X. - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company H, 26th Infantry, 1st Infantry Division. Place and date: Near Schevenhutte, Germany, 19 November 1944. Entered service at: Camden. N.J. Birth: Philadelphia, Pa. G.O. No.: 92, 25 October 1945. Citation: He manned a heavy machinegun emplaced in a foxhole near Schevenhutte, Germany, on 19 November 1944, when the enemy launched a fierce counterattack. Braving an intense hour-long preparatory barrage, he maintained his stand and poured deadly accurate fire into the advancing foot troops until they faltered and came to a halt. The hostile forces brought up a machinegun in an effort to dislodge him but were frustrated when he lifted his gun to an exposed but advantageous position atop a log, courageously stood up in his foxhole and knocked out the enemy weapon. A rocket blasted his gun from position, but he retrieved it and continued firing. He silenced a second machinegun and then made repeated trips over fire-swept terrain to replenish his ammunition supply. Wounded painfully in this dangerous task, he disregarded his injury and hurried back to his post, where his weapon was showered with mud when another rocket barely missed him. In the midst of the battle, with enemy troops taking advantage of his predicament to press forward, he calmly cleaned his gun, put it back into action and drove off the attackers. He continued to fire until his ammunition was expended, when, with a fierce desire to close with the enemy, he picked up a carbine, killed 1 enemy soldier, wounded another and engaged in a desperate firefight with a third until he was mortally wounded by a burst from a machine pistol. The extraordinary heroism and intrepidity displayed by Pvt. McGraw inspired his comrades to great efforts and was a major factor in repulsing the enemy attack.
POWER, JOHN VINCENT - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization. First Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 20 November 1918, Worcester, Mass. Appointed from: Massachusetts. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty as platoon leader, attached to the 4th Marine Division, during the landing and battle of Namur Island, Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands, 1 February 1944. Severely wounded in the stomach while setting a demolition charge on a Japanese pillbox, 1st Lt. Power was steadfast in his determination to remain in action. Protecting his wound with his left hand and firing with his right, he courageously advanced as another hostile position was taken under attack, fiercely charging the opening made by the explosion and emptying his carbine into the pillbox. While attempting to reload and continue the attack, 1st Lt. Power was shot again in the stomach and head and collapsed in the doorway. His exceptional valor, fortitude and indomitable fighting spirit in the face of withering enemy fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.
23 posts and he has avoided this question 3 times in this thread and 5 times overall.
That is true Mr. Schätzer, it is a light rifle, and as such, it did not shoot pistol ammunition. Albiet a weak rifle, but effective at it’s maximum effective range, as are all weapons. It may not be effective at 600m, like a standard or sniper rifle, but it was a dandy little weapon.
does this quote mean that a standard rifle is effective at 600 metres unlike the M1 carbine, IRONMAN?
Does this mean a Carbine is different to a standard rifle?
SCOTT, ROBERT S. - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization: Captain (then Lieutenant), U.S. Army, 172d Infantry, 43d Infantry Division. Place and date. Near Munda Air Strip, New Georgia, Solomon Islands, 29 July 1943. Entered service at. Santa Fe, N. Mex. Birth: Washington, D.C. G.O. No.: 81, 14 October 1944. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty near Munda Airstrip, New Georgia, Solomon Islands, on 29 July 1943. After 27 days of bitter fighting, the enemy held a hilltop salient which commanded the approach to Munda Airstrip. Our troops were exhausted from prolonged battle and heavy casualties, but Lt. Scott advanced with the leading platoon of his company to attack the enemy position, urging his men forward in the face of enemy rifle and enemy machinegun fire. He had pushed forward alone to a point midway across the barren hilltop within 75 yards of the enemy when the enemy launched a desperate counterattack, which successful would have gained undisputed possession of the hill. Enemy riflemen charged out on the plateau, firing and throwing grenades as they moved to engage our troops. The company withdrew, but Lt. Scott, with only a blasted tree stump for cover, stood his ground against the wild enemy assault. By firing his carbine and throwing the grenades in his possession he momentarily stopped the enemy advance using the brief respite to obtain more grenades. Disregarding small-arms fire and exploding grenades aimed at him, suffering a bullet wound in the left hand and a painful shrapnel wound in the head after his carbine had been shot from his hand, he threw grenade after grenade with devastating accuracy until the beaten enemy withdrew. Our troops, inspired to renewed effort by Lt. Scott’s intrepid stand and incomparable courage, swept across the plateau to capture the hill, and from this strategic position 4 days later captured Munda Airstrip.
STRYKER, STUART S. - Medal of Honor Recipient
Rank and organization. Private First Class, U.S. Army, Company E, 513th Parachute Infantry, 17th Airborne Division. Place and date: Near Wesel, Germany, 24 March 1945. Entered service at: Portland, Oreg. Birth. Portland, Oreg. G.O. No.: 117, 11 December 1945. Citation. He was a platoon runner, when the unit assembled near Wesel, Germany after a descent east of the Rhine. Attacking along a railroad, Company E reached a point about 250 yards from a large building used as an enemy headquarters and manned by a powerful force of Germans with rifles, machineguns, and 4 field pieces. One platoon made a frontal assault but was pinned down by intense fire from the house after advancing only 50 yards. So badly stricken that it could not return the raking fire, the platoon was at the mercy of German machine gunners when Pfc. Stryker voluntarily left a place of comparative safety, and, armed with a carbine, ran to the head of the unit. In full view of the enemy and under constant fire, he exhorted the men to get to their feet and follow him. Inspired by his fearlessness, they rushed after him in a desperate charge through an increased hail of bullets. Twenty-five yards from the objective the heroic soldier was killed by the enemy fusillades. His gallant and wholly voluntary action in the face of overwhelming firepower, however, so encouraged his comrades and diverted the enemy’s attention that other elements of the company were able to surround the house, capturing more than 200 hostile soldiers and much equipment, besides freeing 3 members of an American bomber crew held prisoner there. The intrepidity and unhesitating self-sacrifice of Pfc. Stryker were in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service.