Panzer projects & prototypes.

World War II German Military
#41

Well, everything could be hit by the artillery, the thing was that the Alkett is quiet a large target, it was efective in mineclearing but a smaller vehicle with deminig rollers or Mayal could as effective and less complicated.

The germas also used a large amout of remote controlled Explosive charge transports , wich were controlled by radio o a wire from a tank, in the Kursk bulge those were used intensively. The explosion of the expendable vehicle triggered the mines in a large sector.

Leichte Ladungsträger Goliath Sd.Kfz.302

#42

Oh yes I have seen those little things in a German WW2 film where they tested it and that little thing has on massive exlosion in it. I would rather chose the Leichte Ladungsträger Goliath Sd.Kfz.302 to clear mines than the Alkett-Raümgerät.

Henk

#43

Great info panzer. I never knew they made those.

Henk

#44

Panzer IV Ausf. J with hidraulic drive.

In late 1943, Zahnradfabrik Augsburg equipped normal (turretless)Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf G/H with newly developed hydraulic steering system. Thoma (non-liquid) oil drive transmission was installed and drive sprocket was replaced with the new one. The power train consisted of twin oil pumps driven by Maybach HL 120 TRM engine. In order to accommodate all the changes, entire engine deck and rear was modified.
In mid 1944, this prototype was fitted with modified hydraulically operated turret instead the original electric powered. Tests were carried on but were never concluded and for testing purposes the only prototype was send to Russia and served with the Waffen SS unit wich used it in combat.

Rear side showing the “duck tail” wich acomodate the hidraulic equipment.

The prototipe survive long enough and was send back to the western front in 1945. At the end of the war, this vehicle was captured by the US Army and was sent to United States for further examination. Tests were never concluded and this vehicle is still visible at Aberdeen U.S Army Proving Grounds in Maryland.

Although the hidraulic system was cumbersome it provide a softer driving experience and performed well, however the Pz IV with Hidro drive was merely a technology demonstrator and it was not intended to mass production because the complications of his manufacturing.

This tank seems to have only the 8mm thick turret skirts but no the hull 5mm ones.

#45

Minenraumpanzer III / Minenraumgerat mit PzKpfw Antrieb.

One of the most interesting prototypes based Panzer III’s chassis was Minenraumpanzer III - mine clearing/mine destroyer tank. This was another extremely weird vehicle developed by Krupp. The idea was simply to run all over the mines with a reinforced kit of tracks, the high clearance of the hull minimizate the blast to the crew compartement.
It proved to be unsuccessful and never entered production.

#46

Flakpanzer IV (3cm) Kugelblitz
(Ball Lightning

In April of 1944, plans were laid for the design that would be an effective defense against Allied fighter bombers, which proved to be very effective against German ground targets. It was proposed to build such vehicle based on Panzer IV Ausf H’s proven chassis and armed with twin 30mm MK (MK - Maschinenkanon) 303 “Doppelflak” / “Brunn” guns (developed by Rheinmetall for Type XXI U-Boot to be installed on coning towers) mounted in fully closed sphere-like turret.Development of this project was given to both Rheinmetall and Daimler-Benz and production was planned to start in September 1944.

First improvised prototype by Daimler-Benz was mounted with modified U-Boot turret armed with two 30mm MK303 guns. It was tested but it didn’t perform as expected and further development was to be continued. The additonal problem was that entire production of 30mm MK303 guns and turrets was reserved for the Kriegsmarine. Designers then decided to utilize older 30mm MK103/38 guns, which were used as armament for Henschel Hs 129 and Dornier Do 335 Pfeil (Arrow) airplanes. The weapon was known to the Luftwaffe as the Jaboschreck (Fighter-bomber terror). In November of 1944, first real prototype was produced at Marienfelde and was tested and eventually production was to start in March of 1945 with 30 being produced monthly. Only five chassis were obtained due to shortages by Daimler-Benz with sub-contractor Stahlindustrie. Daimler-Benz produced three and Stahlindustrie two were produced in February/March of 1945. Due to the war situation and cancellation of Panzer IV’s production, only 2 to 5 prototypes were delivered in February/March of 1945 and assigned to Panzerflak Ersatz und Ausbildungs Abteilung (Anti-Aircraft Tank Training and Replacement Battalion) at Ohrdruf, but it is not knownif they saw any combat. Although, some sources state that all took part in the Battle for Berlin in April of 1945, where they were all lost.Kugelblitz was intended for use exclusively on the Western Front, where Allied Air Force was the biggest threat to the German Army.

Kugelblitz was operated by the crew of 5, protected by the armor thickness varying from 10mm to 80mm. The turret housed 3 men crew consisting of two gun operator (each sitting alongside the gun) and commander (sitting in the middle). The 3500kg turret had one entry/exit hatch (commander was last to enter and first to exit) and two smaller hatches for observation. It had manual traverse by hand of 14 degrees per second. Armored protection of the turret was only 20mm. The size and weight of the turret demanded that hulls were fitted with larger 1900mm rings from Tiger I.

With its low silhouette, high mobility (with maximum speed of 38km/h), great rate of fire (400 to 650 rounds per minute) and gun range (up to 5700 meters), Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz would prove deadly to any enemy plane. Both guns were coupled together, but could be fired independently. The ammunition, known as Minengeschoss was belt-fed and more powerful than standard 30mm round, only three to four rounds were needed to shotdown any enemy plane. Its main drawback was its small ammunition storage allowing it to continue firing for only 90 seconds, while afterwards more ammunition was to be supplied by other vehicles.

#47

Wow Panzerknacker… thanks for all the great info! You the Man! 8)

Keep it coming if you dont mind!

#48

You are the man and sure as hel know how to get the right stuff.

Henk

#49

Thanks guys, this particular issue in neverending, day after day more information and blueprints of the german panzer projetcs come to light.

Minenraumer III.

#50

Lucky sun of a gun. What happend to it?

Henk

#51

Not much…there was a version armed with two 30mm MK and two 20mm MK cannons planned. 20mm cannons were to be used to “get on target”, while 30mm cannons were to fired on it.

Kugelblitz mocke-up.

The height of this vehicle was only 2,3m.

In addition, tests were carried to equip future models with radar and infra-red equipment. In November of 1944, it was accepted to utilize Hetzer’s chassis as a base for Flakpanzer 38(t) Hetzer mounted with Kugelblitz’s turret, but it was never materialized due to the war situation. It was also proposed to mounted Kugelblitz’s turret on Panther’s chassis, but it was never done.

Caracteristics of the Reinhmetall-Borsig Maschinen Kanone MK-103:

Caliber: 30mm (30x184B)

Lenght: 2318mm

Weight: 146 kg.

Operation: gas assisted short recoil.

RoF: 360-420 rpm according ammo weight.

30 mm ammo caracteristics.

Bullet weight: between 390-460 grams.

Muzzle speed of the ammo:

Normal HE: 815 m/s

Minengesschoss HE: 900 m/s.

AP steel core ( panzergranate 39) 710 m/s.

AP tugsten core (Panzergranate 40) 960 m/s.

Normal He ammo:

Steel core incendiary ammo.

Panzergranate 40, the Kugelblitz might use this type of ammo for self defense against other tanks. The bullet can penetrate 65 mm homogeneus armor at 300 meters.

Especifications for Flakpanzer IV (3cm) Kugelblitz

Weight: 25000kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: Maybach HL 120 TRM 112 / 12-cylinder / 300hp
Speed: 38km/h
Range: 200km
Lenght: 5.92m
Width: 2.95m
Height: 2.30m
Armament: 2 x 30mm MK103/38 & 7.92mm MG34
Ammo: 30mm - 1200 rounds
7.92mm - 900 rounds

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 30/round + 20/60
Front Superstructure: 80/10
Front Hull: 80/12
Side Turret: 20/round + 20/60
Side Superstructure: 30/0
Side Hull: 30/0
Rear Turret: 30/0
Rear Superstructure: 20/11
Rear Hull: 20/9
Turret Top / Bottom: 20/90
Superstructure Top / Bottom: 13/85-90
Hull Top / Bottom: 13/90

#52

To me… it seems the German army was in 44… were starting to realize that in order to win… or prolong the war… whichever came first… would have to seriously think of the way they were gonna fight it. I mean… the allies… for the most part… had air supremecy… and… at any point can there not be Luftwaffe flak guns avaliable to shoot down allied planes attacking German convoys or counterattacks or whatever. So now they had to build… mobile anti-aircraft tanks… and by the description Panzerknacker :slight_smile: gave on the FlakPanzer 1V… proved effective. Now… instead of just building tanks… for example… every 5 “tanks” built… 1 would have to be some sort of 'Flakpanzer".

Same goes with building tanks… to the “tank destroyers” or the “mobile assault guns”. With Germany… from late 43’ onward shifting to defence… they should of focused tank production on the T. Destroyers and the Assault guns. Cheaper to build… easier to build… lower profile… just as deadly… why not switch to producing only those until or if the tide was to turn? Of course there are the disadvantages of not having the rotating turret… but if the tank is used primarly for defence… and is not going to be moving as opposed to attacking… then it makes sence.

Not near enough was being done to adapt to the kind of war Germany was fighting…

I"m just rambling here… but does anyone understand what I"m getting at. More input if anyone has anything to add! 8)

#53

Yes off course, the increased numbers of “Flakpanzers” desings were in the search for the self protection of the armoured divisions deployed in the field, probably because the cuantity of the Luftwaffe aircraft available for protect those was few.

Same goes with building tanks… to the “tank destroyers” or the “mobile assault guns”. With Germany… from late 43’ onward shifting to defence… they should of focused tank production on the T. Destroyers and the Assault guns. Cheaper to build… easier to build… lower profile… just as deadly… why not switch to producing only those until or if the tide was to turn? Of course there are the disadvantages of not having the rotating turret… but if the tank is used primarly for defence… and is not going to be moving as opposed to attacking… then it makes sence

It make sence but there was still some tactical situation for example a local limited counterattack…operations for wich the panzerjagers were not the best answers but the conventional tanks. The Stugs with 75mm and 105mm are instead originally “offensive” weapons used succesfully in the close support role, then in 1942 they switched his task more often to the defensive antitank role.

In some ways the Panther tank was a high mobile tank killer, with a powerful gun and all the heavy armor in the front wich made it excellent for shooting in ambush positions… but weakly protected from side attacks.

#54

Yes, the Germans knew they had to gain air supremace and also wanted to protect their armour from air attacks. The Panther were great but like Panzerknacker said, they did not have side armour.

Great info guys.

Henk

#55

Yes, we can say that the Tiger 1 designed in 1941 was an offensive breaktrough weapon, the Panther designed in 1942-43 was an all around use but with accent in the defensive bussines. Off course many people will desagree but is only opinion.

Tiger 1 Porsche.and his variants. part 1.

On May 26th of 1941, during the meeting concerning the development of new weaponry, Adolf Hitler ordered both Dr.Porsche and Henschel to supply their designs for a heavy tank, which was to be ready in the summer of 1942.

new 45-ton panzer was to be armed with a 88mm KwK L/56 mounted in a turret designed by Krupp. Development of Porsche’s Tiger was progressing much faster than that of Henschel since Porsche worked on an independent project for heavy tank since autumn of 1940. Henschel was not that advanced and utilized as many already available components from its previous projects to complete its VK 4501 design.

In order to speed up the development of VK4501(P), components of VK 3001(P) were modified and used. The suspension was modified version of the suspension used in the VK 3001(P) prototype. It was made up of six road-wheels and lacked return rollers. Tracks had 109 links per side and were 640mm wide with track surface contact of 4175mm (4.175m). Tiger(P) was powered by two (air-cooled) Porsche Typ 101/1 engines mounted in the rear part of the hull.

Gasoline engines drove electrical generators, which drove two electric motors, which provided power to the tracks.Gasoline engines were produced with defects and were repaired but remained unreliable, while electric system used copper, which was a critical war material.

Drive sprocket was in the rear instead of the standard location at the front. Electric transmission system was used similar to that ofVK 3001(P).Overall gasoline-electric power/drive system with which many problems were encountered (such as engine fire) was utilized. Its power/weight distribution limited its cross-country performance and during trials, VK4501(P) prototype was often bogged down (especially in the soft ground) and had to be towed away by recovery vehicles…

To be continued…

#56

Now I cannot wait for the Second part. Looks cool this design for the Tiger.

Henk

#57

Part II.

The contest.

Both, Henschel and Porsche’s prototypes arrived to a station near Rastenburg on April 19th of 1942 and then traveled 11km to Rastenburg, while constantly breaking down.On April 20th of 1942 at 11:00am, both Porsche and Henschel prototypes were presented to Adolf Hitler (on his birthday) in Wolfschanze (Rastenburg), East Prussia. Tests were scheduled for July and preliminary tests proved that the Tiger(P)'s design was far from being perfect and modifications were made, but none of the technical problems were fully solved from the lack time. Both VK4501(P) and VK4501(H) were armed with powerful 88mm KwK 36 L/56 gun, developed from 88mm Flak 36 L/56 gun.

Tiger P in Rastenburg.

Originally, Krupp designed and produced the turret for Porsche’s VK4501, but then it was modified and used by Henschel’s VK4501. The first eight turrets produced had lower sides and a flat roof with raised centre section to allow the gun to be depressed through larger arc.

Tiger(P) had its turret mounted forward, what also made the operating in enclosed areas dangerous. In July of 1942, both prototypes were put to the extensive tests at the tank school in Berka, Germany. During the tests, Porsche’s VK 4501(P) was a failure, while Henschel’s VK 4501(H) was a great success. Main failure of Porsche’s design laid in its advanced power and drive system, which was prone to breakdowns and required continuous maintenance. Also Tiger(P) was longer than its competitor, what made it less maneuverable.

Several Pics of the test in the Posche Tiger. The turret is pointing rearwards.

The tracks in the Tiger P were narrower than the Henschel Tiger “combat tracks”.

Esqueme of the gasoline electrical transmition.

In July of 1942, Henschel Tiger - VK 4501(H) was approved and went into production. Only five Tiger(P) were fully completed in July of 1942 by Nibelungenwerke with armored parts supplied by Krupp, before the production was stopped in August of 1942 (chassis number 150001-150010).

But beside the Porsches s defeat, production of 90 pre-production VK4501(P) chassis started. Production of pre-production chassis continued, and in early September of 1942, it was decided to equip two sPzAbts (including sPzAbt 501) destined for North Africa with Tiger(P)s. This decision was made simply because of the stage of development and the fact that Tiger(P)'s engines were air-cooled. Once again unresolved problem of technical unreliability led to the cancellation of the production. Those chsssis were used for the Ferdinand- Elefant jagdpanzer.

To be continued… ( damn)

#58

Panzerknacker the 3 last pics does not work mate. I wonder why they did not use stronger engines or develop greater engines.

Henk

#59

Check it now.

Only one completed Tiger(P) with chassis number 150013 saw combat service as a command tank - Panzerbefehlswagen VI(P) with schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653. It was used by its commander, Hauptmann Grillenberg (turret number 003), on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944.

Caracteristics.

Weight: 58 500kg
Crew: 5 men
Engine: 2 x Porsche Typ 101/1 / V10 / 320hp
Fuel Capacity: 520 litres
Speed: Road: 20-35km/h
Cross-Country: 8-10km/h
Range: Road: 80-110km
Cross-Country: 48-50km
Lenght: 9.34m (with the gun)
6.70m (w/o the gun)
Width: 3.38m (with the aprons)
3.14m (w/o the aprons)
Height: 2.80m

Armament: 88mm KwK 36 L/56 & 2 x 7.92mm MG34
Ammo: 88mm - 64-80 rounds
7.92mm - 4350 rounds

Armor (mm/angle):

Front Turret: 100/8
Front Superstructure: 100/12
Front Hull: 100/35
Side Turret: 80/0
Side Superstructure: 80/0
Side Hull: 60/0
Rear Turret: 80/0
Rear Hull: 80/0
Top / Bottom Turret: 25/81 / 25/90
Top / Bottom Superstructure: 20/90
Top / Bottom Hull: 20/90
Gun Mantlet: 100-110/0

#60

It really looks like the T-34…

…Anyone know why they did not incorportate the sloped armour on the Tiger from the beginning? Had they done that there would of been no need for a King Tiger…