Hey, lets do the revolution
MAte , I am not enemy for the Poland. And Sneaksie isn’t also.
And i have the polish friend - you as example.
I am not mixing the personal relation with political.
But i hope you would understand that “your little ambition to turn at least one Russian soul into friend of Poland” are used in wrong way. You use the old Cold War arguments in discussion - this is not best way for friendship.
I hope , we can reach the understanding without the “intermediary” from London or US. Do you understand?
Thank you very much for disclosing your sources… They are out of this planet.
This source , mate , is much nearer then even Australia.
(Or have you a problem with opening of this page?)
Testimonies of German officer : Pauls (commander of 6-xt army) or gen. Shtagel or Nazis leaders in Nurnberg tribunal - these are the documents which are used the professional historians in its works.
Being in Lubjanca , Shtagel or any other germans officer hadn’t the any reason for “lie” , especially about Warsaw.
Continuation of this discussion on this level is seriously damaging reputation of our Forum.
Mate , don’t worry about “reputation of our Forum”. The true could be born in hot discussions.
Maybe your government shouldn’t have been dicking-around with the Nazis making claims on Eastern Ukraine before the war. Trusting the British was a bad idea too since they sold you out in 1939.
What claims on Eastern Ukraine you are talking about?
What dicking-around with the Nazis?
Please, leave the soviet propaganda behind. Nobody belives in this.
And you’re trying to say that it would had been better for Poles to trust the Soviets than British?
I’ll tell you who believes this “Soviet propaganda”, von Ribbentrop, because THAT’S where the information came from. He negotiated with the Poles who wanted to take Eastern Ukraine. Initially the Germans at least acted concillatory. But the Poles did not know the Nazi determination to seize their land.
Since it is a proven fact that the British sold your country out, I would say Poland was MUCH better off when it kept it’s non-aggression treaties with the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany.
And maybe you could be more specific:
when the negotiations took place?
who were these Poles?
what was their plan to take the Eastern Ukraine?
Attacking the Soviet Union together with Wehrmacht?
Let me remind you, that one of main priorities of polish foreign policy was to avoid the involvment in conflict on neither side, German nor Soviet.
And one more thing, relying on non-agression pact with Soviets was nothing more like staying with a lion in one cage and hoping that it will not attack.
Poles had already seen how Soviets keep their promises.
Right, because everyone knows that Foreign Minister RIBBENTROP was a Soviet propagandist right?
If I were on my own computer these days I would copy the quotes for you.
It was not clarified how solidified those plans were.
Was not made clear.
Until the Beck government took over and started working for British interests rather than Polish ones. Kind of like Kwasnewski a few years ago.
Really? WHEN prior to 1939 did the Poles have any reason to think the Soviets would break that non-aggression pact? If they had seen proof, WHY did they even seek one in the first place?
I am the FIRST to admit that out of all the countries in Eastern Europe, Poland is probably the only one with a LEGITIMATE beef against the Soviet Union. However, since the 1980s, Poles have been turning all their hatred against not only the Soviet Union, but the non-Communist Russia state at all- exposing this as simply primitive ethnic-hatred rather than legitimate ideological differences.
Poles have ONE person to blame for their misery in the WW2 era: Trotsky. His idiotic “perpetual revolution” idea was why he drove the Red Army to Warsaw in an attempt to take over Poland. This clearly soured relations from then on out.
So, you don’t have a single proof. Let’s forget it.
Some proofs?
You’re greatly exagerating. It is the simplest way to blame Polish for all bad in polish-russian relations. If you focus on some small groups of polish right-wing fanatics, maybe you’re right. But your judgment has nothing to do with whole polish society, and all previous goverments - I’m not talking about present one.
Wasn’t Trotsky dead by 1939 after getting an ice-pick in his head? Maybe it was 1940, I can’t remember. But I mean, are you saying that Stalin cont’d Trotsky’s policies? Even though he was “disgraced” and banished to Mexico City by Stalin, and ultimately killed on his orders?
Ready to lose an argument? Ok? Good. Here’s RIBBENTROP’S OWN WORDS:
[i]Ribbentrop about his consulations with Beck (Polish foreign minister) in early 1939:
January 6, 1939, Warsaw.
I asked Beck whether they (the Polish government) have given up on the aspirations of Marshall Pilsudsky towards Ukraine. He answered, smilingly, that they have already been in Kiev once and that without a doubt such aspirations are still alive today.
Then I thanked Mister Beck for his invitation to visit Warsaw. The date has not been set yet. We’ve agreed that I and Mister Beck will yet again think through all the detals of the prospective treaty between us and Poland"
January 26, 1939, Warsaw.
… Then I spoke to mister Beck again regarding the policy of Poland and Germany towards the Soviet Union and in this relation about the question of Greater Ukraine; I again offered cooperation between Poland and and Germany in this respect.
Mister Beck admitted that Poland has aspirations regarding Soviet Ukraine and access to the Black see, he also pointed out to the dangers that a treaty between Poland and Germany directed against the Soviet Union would bring about. However, he, while speaking on the future of the Soviet Union, expressed an opinion that USSR will either fall apart as a result of an internal desintegration or, to avoid such an outcome, would gather its forces and strike first.
I pointed out to Mister Beck on the passive nature of his position and also stated that it would be reasonable to preempt the outcome that he is foretelling and attack the Soviet Union with a propaganda war. In my opnion, as I said, joining the Ani-Comintern pact Poland would gain since her security would be strengthened by getting in the same boat with us.
Mister Beck said that he will seriously consider this proposal."[/i]
And you mean to tell me that you don’t see the EXACT same thing being done in all other relations involving Russians and other countries? I’m the ONE guy here saying that Poland DOES have a lot of legitimate complaints against Stalin and Soviet occupation, but that is the problem of war. The Germans started that.
I get along FAR better with the far-right wing in Poland than the liberal-centrist types.
Lenin and Stalin simply wanted the Poles to be driven out of Ukraine during the Civil War when they invaded. But Trotsky, now having the opportunity since he had command of the army, wanted to use the was as an excuse to start his nonsensical “world revolution”. It was for this reason that he sent the Red Army all the way to Warsaw. This is the sort of thing that poisons relationships between nations.
Kovalski is right. There is a limit to everything. Sorry Chevan, but you violated very bad cultural border. The Polish Government Kovalski is writing about was the only one legal partner of the Allies including the US Administration. The USA never negotiates with the “cowards and adventurists” according to your words. When the only one legal, London-based, Polish Government asked in September 1944 the US authorities and USAAF for air operation code-named “Frantic VII” to support the Warsaw Uprising then US Administration agreed to do it. For the Polish people and for normal and legal Polish Government, not for your “cowards and adventurists” because it is not a community to discuss with.
Well ,Gregogy , hello
Don’t worry please about our cultural border.
We have much more common points then you think indeed.
The Polish Government Kovalski is writing about was the only one legal partner of the Allies including the US Administration. The USA never negotiates with the “cowards and adventurists” according to your words.
Take my words back , certainly they were not cowards.
When the only one legal, London-based, Polish Government asked in September 1944 the US authorities and USAAF for air operation code-named “Frantic VII” to support the Warsaw Uprising then US Administration agreed to do it.
Sound good but may be you don’t know than Poles asked to send the polish volunteers to the Warsaw to help the upgising but Churchill refused it.
It was obviously poles wanted to liberate Warsaw themself. But without interaction with Red Army it was pure adventure and they must know it.
So called “supportion of USAAF and RAF” was symbolic ( no more 5% of parashuts fall down to the polish hand).
To think that Stalin should help the London make the anti-soviet uprising is naive ( or cynical).
Chevan, if Stalin agreed to allow USAAF planes to land in soviet-held airbases in August, the situation might have been different.
Such explanation like quoted above, is really uncalled-for. After 1,5 month of fighting it was obvious that the Poles didn’t control enough area (Stalin agreed in September).
It’s an example of cynical soviet propaganda.
It is not said that thanks to possible help of airdrops the AK soldiers would have beaten Germans in Warsaw for sure. But at least they might have a serious chance.
I have a couple of questions… The Polish-Soviet war of 1919-1921, was not it started by Poland?
I kind of see it this way:
…bla-bla-bla… Pilsudsky: Great Poland from sea to sea (Baltic and Black sea) …bla-bla-bla… Poland attacks. Polish troops are in Kiev … bla-bla… Read army near Warsaw with world revolution mission …bla-bla… Read Army lost …bla-bla… Riga agreement signed. As the result Poland seized control over western Ukrain and Belorussia.
bla-bla-bla…September 1939, USSR gets back the land lost before plus a bit extra.
I’ve heard about the cooperation between KA and Red Army only from the Poles. This “uncomfortable” information is not much spoken and written about in Russia.
But still I think that AK’s “no idea to fight Red Army” is an exaggeration. In recollections of Russian veterans, I’ve read about AK’s attacks on Soviet units, and even about atrocities by AK. It was brutal war, nobody was perfectly white and good. I understand why Polish patriots regarded Soviets as their enemies. I just think that this heroical image of fighters against communism but not against Red Army looks strange.
In order to give you full and clear answers, I need to explain shortly a political situation in Poland in 1918.
The biggest problem of polish polticians of that time was the idea of relations with its neighbours - especially Russia.
There were two biggest fractions:
“Narodowa Demokracja” (National Democracy) - Nationalists led by Roman Dmowski. In their opinion Poland’s greatest enemy was the Germany. That’s why they wanted to cooperate closely with Russia and other slavian countries. What is more, they propagated loyalty to Russia.
The problem of Narodowa Demokracja was that they were anti-Semite and didn’t respect rights of Ukrainians and other Belarussians. In fact they considered these nations as very susceptible to process of polonization.
The opposite to them was Jozef Pilsudski and his supporters.
Pilsudski was afraid of Russia’s imperialist ambitions. He used to say that Germany is not as dangerous and powerful as Russia. He wanted to eliminate the threat from East, but not by starting a war. His idea was to raise few “buffer” countries - Ukraine as an example - in order to hold Russia far from polish borders. As Pilsudski was the most popular polish leader of that time, he was given the power by the Poles.
We need to remeber that after Germans had withdrawn from Eastern Europe, a large political emptiness arised there.
Pilsudski wanted to take the control over this area - I hope that the reasons are understood for all of us.
From the other hand, it was obvious that Russians won’t allow Poles to build a state and “buffer” states. So the war was unavoidable.
It wasn’t Pilsudski’s idea. Just a polish cultural myth, not even worth of discussion.
On 16th of November 1918 Bolsheviks created so-called “Western Army” and marched towards Minsk and Vilnus. It was before Poles started to organize the army against Bolscheviks.
Hmm, it is a very, very simplified version.
The history of wars for this region is much longer and complicated.
Ehh, I got go back to work. Boss is coming!
I’ll try to continue later.
I agree. Co-operation in some places really existed but AK - Home Army was not perfectly uniform and it’s command being “locked” in Warsaw, was not exercising full control over all units. I doubt they had any control.
It’s certain that some units of AK attacked Red Army and soviet partisans units.
I had seen many photographs of AK units armed with soviet weapons.
I doubt that Red Army was making such presents…
And the only way of acquiring such weapons was obvious…
War is war. Nothing is white or black, or just good or just bad.
As you said.
I am glad that you, as I read it, share my understanding that both our countries were equally aggressive to each other in the 20th. Who “won” at each of the points in time is another question.
Without intent to ignite hated discussion I want to say that In my opinion Russia had more historical and geopolitical rights to the area referred to as west Ukraine and Belorussia (I am talking about the area in general, not about some specific places on its boundary). But I believe this is a topic for another thread.
P.S: As I like to say to my Polish colleague Konrad: Long live Peace, Love and a little bit of sex! He usually laughs ans answers “Yes, but not with you!”.
Way, how many new guys is here…
Nice surprise. Hallo for the Lexa and Egorka. Hi from Krasnodar.
Sure mate you right. I agree this was the Stalin’s mistake to refuse the airfields for the allies. Even if he let to use the soviet airfields in august it couldn’t something change indeed.
But his “refuse” was used by the London as the reason of fall of uprising. Its nothing strange , i think. Just politic.
Let imagine the allies used the airfields and could airlift for instance not 10 tonn per day but 20?
What it’s really change if 90% of all supplies got into the german hands??
(as it told the german commendant of Warsaw in 1944 general Stagel) http://news.polska.ru/news.php?news=04-07-30-01
Germans were really glad of such “allies supplies”. And they controlled the situation enough.
They used heavy tanks and artillery ( and even 600-mm monsters “Karl”) against guerrials.
What can realy could opposed poles except its bravery. (Certainly they were very brave and despairation)??
And this is not soviet propoganda. Look to the thinks pragmatic, please.
It is not said that thanks to possible help of airdrops the AK soldiers would have beaten Germans in Warsaw for sure. But at least they might have a serious chance.
They really might have a serious chance just IF THEY INTERACTED WITH RED ARMY.
But as you know soviet commander Gukov was very surprised when learn 4 august from the soviet military intelligence about uprising ( i.e. through 3 day from the beginning).
The troops of Rocossovskij rushed the Vistula and 11 august coudl took the Prage- suburd of Warsaw. but was stopped by germans and could move far.
It was obviously germans was still strond and desided to hold the Warsaw ( becouse the lost of Warsaw could have very bad political resaults for the Reich in summer 1944) Moscow radio called pro-soviet forces in Warsac began the uprising 2 august… Am i right?
But AK command (Buch-Comarovskij) desided to rise the the own uprission.
Late when Micolachick had arrived to Moscow in end of august and had the talks with Stalin about soviet offencive to the Warsaw. But they hadn’t agreement.
Certainly Stalin could order to take Warsaw in August and losed for Red Army about 20 000-30 000 lives of soldiers.
But call me honestly just one the reason WHY HE MUST DID IT?
