the tiger is and stays the best Tank there is no doubt about it.
Isn´t that a concrete post? … right of the Soldier you can see concrete and grass … but those Pantherturmstellungen, e.g. at Italy, had been built like a block, but this coppula … strange :neutral:
Odd loking perhaps, but is a very practical use for the Panther turret, this emplacement was know as “Pantherturm” , “Panther stellung”, “PantherOstwallturm”, and it was extremely hard to spot and destroy:
Panther turrets as pill-boxes
During the Italian campaign the Germans mounted Panther’s turrets on concrete pillboxes for anti-tank defence. Some were installed for saving the vehicles while providing a cheap but powerful anti-tank capability, but the most were expecially designed ones with increased 40 mm roof armor to whithstand heavy artillery shells, and heavier 70mm side armor. Most of the Italian inland was mountanous: by blocking a few passes with assault guns and anti-tank pill-boxes (as the Panther’s one) the Germans were able to contain the menace with their thinily spread forces.
Although the majority of this Panther Ostwallturm saw employement in the East, in the effort of building strong German defensive positions along along a line going from Narva to Crimea. As war progressed many German cities were named felde platze (fortress) and turrets (both appositely designed ones or from damaged tanks) were used to strengthen these improvised positions.
The turrets, with their low profile, resulted quite impressive to Allies commands and an evaluation of the Panther turrets employed as pill-boxes by the British Mediterranean theatre high command (circa August 1944) expressed in these terms (extract from T. Jentz’s Panther variants):
Panther turrets are not of course AFV but their impact on the course of AFV affairs is thought to be sufficiently important to justify a few words. Panther turrets were first met in the Hitler line and were in fact the salient features round which the other defences were built up. They are actual tank turrets, though perhaps of a lightly earlier vintage than those now on tanks. They are mounted on a turret ring fitted on an armoured box, built up of welded plate about 63mm (2.5 inches) in thickness. The whole of this box is sunk into the ground and earth is banked up close to the turret so that it is first cleared by the gun at depression and yet offers some additional protection to the base of the turret skirts.
Traverse is by hand only and no power is supplied. Access to the turret is either by access doors in the turret itself or from underneath the armoured box by means of a steel ladder communicating with a deep dugout. It is obvious that the crews live in the turret and dugout permanently, as electric light is supplied and there are other signs of continuing operation.
[LEFT]This system of static defence was backed up by SP equipment and ordering anti-tank guns. In front of each position there was a graveyard of Churchills and some Shermans; perhaps eight tanks to a gun and all within 200 metres of it. This is, at present, the cost of reducing a Panther turret and it would see to be an excellent investment for Hitler. Obviously these turrets are most formidable unless each one is dealt with by a carefully prepared and co-ordinated attack.
The turrets are almost invisible till they fire and, when located, there is very little to shoot at and, unless the turret happens to be pointing elsewhere, it will not be penetrated either by 75mm or 6 pounder guns. HE fire is obviously useless. In all cases where there was enough of the turret left to diagnose the method of destruction, penetration of the turret side had been effected. One Churchill crew who destroyed one with their 6 pounder say that the turret blew up immediately it was hit. This was presumably due to the ammunition, since a large quantity is stored. If anti-tank defence is to consist of these turrets in the future it cannot but emphasise the need for a proportion of tanks to carry a really effective AP weapon, though it is not by any means accepted that attack by tanks is the best and correct method of dealing with them.
Note that some turrets had cuppolas, and some not.
[/LEFT]
That is pretty impressive,never had heard of them before.I did a google search and found this
I also noticed on the map they provided it was near a bridge next to a river,looks like a pretty good defensive position.
In panzerknacker’s post I like those kids playing in the turret lol.
:shock:
Was the Ammonition stored at the side of the turret??? I thought down in the “container”. :neutral:
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the Japanese perfect the “turret in a hill” defense in the late stages of the Pacific war? Or, were the Germans more effective?
Was the Ammonition stored at the side of the turret??? I thought down in the “container”.
There was ready-to-use patronen in the inner turrets wall, if is the same configuration that in the Panther vehicle some 40-45 rounds of 75mm. One API hit in those large cartrigdes may cause a fire in the turret and a fire in the turret…well the effects above mentioned.
Pantherstellung before being emplaced in dug out position:
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn’t the Japanese perfect the “turret in a hill” defense in the late stages of the Pacific war? Or, were the Germans more effective?
Sorry, no info about then jap turrets, the member Tom probably know better. In any case I am pretty sure that the high velocity 75mm german Kwk 42 was by far more effective that any gun of the japanese got in caliber between 75-100 mm
I found a topic abot th e Patherturmstellungen:
Sites 1,2 and 3 show very interessting plans and pictures!
Nice, some emplacements seems to be protected with trenchs and machineguns on it. However some pics in Italy shows a very lone turret.
Engine change Panther ausf A.
Very nice, the Pantherfibel is not famous as the Tiger handbook, very few had survived.
More information ( if needed) of the Pantherturm emplacement, this time extracted from “Pzkfw V Panther Vol. 6” AJ press.
Note the blewed up muzzle brake in this first picture:
…continue from above.
If you are not all Pantherturm experten after this…:rolleyes:
WOW! Fantastic informations and Pictures!! THANK YOU!! The more, the better! That´s awesomely excellent!! 
You got also some nice informations about the Schmalturm? I only fond some pictures via Google and some Blueprints on the panther44.de (?) forums.
Btw. did you noticed, that the T-55 Enigma (sorry) looks quite similar to that on the German Paper Tank E-79, which looks also a bit like a Panther?
You got also some nice informations about the Schmalturm? I only fond some pictures via Google and some Blueprints on the panther44.de (?) forums.
I have some, let me put togheter, I will post it later.
Btw. did you noticed, that the Israelian MBT Merkava´s turret looks quite similar to that on the German Paper Tank E-79, which looks also a bit like a Panther?
Can you post a picture of the E-79 in the topic Panzer projekts for comparison ?
Pz V Panther Ausf F.
The Model F was the final combat version of the Panther that the Germans intended to introduce during the war, although in reality German factories did not manage to finish a complete Model F tank before the war ended.
Mixed vehicle comprised of ausf G chassis, kwk 42 normal gun and schmalturm.
This variant married the newly developed Narrow Turret (Schmalturm) with its modified 7.5cm L/70 gun to an altered Model G chassis. The latter featured thicker frontal hull roof armour (25-40mm instead of 16-40mm),
improved armour casting on the glacis plate surrounding the Kugelblende 50 machine gun ball mount, and modified guides for the sliding driver’s and radio operator’s hatches.
The Germans decided to develop a new turret to replace that of the Model A and G tanks because combat experience had shown that this design sometimes deflected incoming rounds down onto the thin hull roof armour. In addition, the designers had concluded that the front of the current Panther turret presented too large a target to the enemy.
During winter 1943-44, two prototype were developed with narrow-fronted and better-armoured Panther turrets - the Narrow Gun Mantlet Turret (which Jentz asserts was to be mounted on the Panther II), and the Rheinmetall Narrow Mantlet Turret. As an outgrowth of these designs, during 1944 Daimler-Benz designed a new Narrow Turret (Schmalturm) that the Germans intended to install on a modified Model G Panther chassis to create the Model F variant.
Close-up to the schmalturm, note the circular protection for the right lens of the rangefinder.
The Schmalturm mounted a slightly modified gun, the 7.5cm KwK 42/1 L/70, ( sometimes named as Kwk 42/KM, for keine mundungbremse, no muzzle brake) together with a co-axial MG 42 (instead of the MG 34 included on previous Panther designs). The turret had a narrow conical gun mantlet and a narrow turret front, as well as 40-120mm-thick armour instead of the 16-100mm plates on the Model G turret. A very improved characteristics were the aiming devices for the gun, in adition of the normal telescopic Zielfenrorh ZF 12, it used a 1,8 m wide optical coincidence rangefinder wich provide a much more precise distance prediction that the stadimetric scale used in the ZF 12.
KWK 42/1
Experimental Narrow Panther Turrets (Versuchs-Schmalturm) during mid-1944, and then in August mounted one of them on a standard Model G chassis for test purposes.
Next, in late October, the High Command issued a production schedule for the Panther F: Daimler-Benz was to produce the first 50 tanks during February 1945, and by May - when Model G construction was to have ended - Krupp, MAN, MNH and Ni-Werk were to join Model F production. But the combination of Allied air strikes and ground advances, plus the administrative chaos engulfing the tottering Nazi Reich, delayed manufacture of the Model F. Consequently, when the Soviets overran the Daimler-Benz factory at Berlin-Marienfelde in late April 1945, they discovered four well-advanced Model F chassis, plus several completed Narrow Turrets.
Indeed, during late April, Daimler-Benz did fit several Model G Panther turrets to completed Model F chassis and delivered these tanks to the troops then desperately defending Berlin.
Clearly, while the Germans did not manage to finish a single Model F Panther prior to the end of hostilities on 8 May 1945, they remained literally only a few days away from achieving this goal when the Soviets overran the Marienfelde factory.
Another close up, for some uknown reason the barrel was sawed off in this schmalturm captured by the british.
I heard about the fact, that also some late Königstigers / Tiger II had been equipped with those Entfernungsmessers (the "bubbles in front of the turret sides) - is that true?
You have any other pictures concerning the Schmalturm?
The later Tiger II were designed to fit that device but I am not sure if they actually were equipped with that.
You have any other pictures concerning the Schmalturm?
More ??? :shock:
I have to dig in 4 book to get the later ones, “Deustche Panzer Rariteten” , “Panther Medium Tank” “Panther Variants” “Panzerkampfwagen Maus und andere Panzerprojekte”
Aniway I going to see if there is more, but I dont make you any promise.
I am sure you will find some, because of your unyielding courage concerning history 
I am sure you will find some, because of your unyielding courage concerning history
The flattery comments usually work with me, this time ius not an exception :
THREE-QUARTER VIEW OF ARTIST’S IMPRESSION OF MODEL F PANTHER, GERMANY, MID-MAY 1945
This plate is an artist’s impression of what a completed Model F Panther would have looked like had one been delivered to the Army. However, the Soviets captured the Daimler-Benz
factory at Berlin-Marienfelde in late April 1945 before this could be achieved.
The Soviets discovered in this factory four well-advanced Model F chassis plus several unmounted completed Narrow Turrets (Schmalturm); the Model F Panther would have been created by simply marrying these Narrow Turrets to the completed chassis. The Narrow Turret of the Model F mounted a slightly modified gun, the 7.5cm KwK 42/1 L/70, with a co-axial MG 42 (rather than MG 34), and featured a narrow conical gun mantlet and turret front, plus thicker armour, so as to increase its battlefield survivability. The chassis remained virtually identical to that of the Model G, except that it had enhanced armour casting on the glacis plate surrounding the machine gun ball mount, modified guides for the sliding driver’s and radio operator’s hatches, and thickened frontal hull roof plates. In this artist’s impression, the tank has been painted in Dark Olive Green (RAL 6003) throughout as its base paint, a procedure authorised by the German High Command in late November 1944.
The kwk 42/1 is in place with his lack of muzzle brake, now I guess that the strain in the recoil hidro-pneumatics cilinders of the turret must be a lot harder without this element.