I really don’t know. IMO many-many thousands. Really many. But I don’t know my self.
But now I know that Johr and Reichling didn’t knew either even though they published their numbers.
But numbers have magic in them. Large numbers especially. At sertain point their become brands used to manipulate public opinion.
And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too?
Some of them are.
Because I hear a lot of Germans don’t want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread. :rolleyes:
I agree, that is a relevant question to ask.
The differnece in this particular case would be (from the top of my head) that a) understanding exactly what the losses mean, i.e. out of 13,5M Soviet civilian victims, only 7,5M is atributed as “killed intentinally”, this is including Holocaust victims too; b) on German side existed state driven ideological antipathy towards some parts of local population. On the Soviet side this deliberate anthipaty policy was not present. The alledged “Kill German” pamphlet by Ilya Ehrenburg was serving completely different purpose, though I agree that it backfired when RKKA entered Germany; c) During the war, the Gemran army spent longer time in USSR then Soviet in German territories.
Otherwise I would preffer if we could continue (if you wish so) this particular topic in another thread.
Assumptions pulled out of the air and figures and calculations based on them and then used as a basis for ‘sensitivity analysis’ seem to lack sensitivity, and sense, to me.
So far as this thread is concerned, I couldn’t give a fishy fuck how many German women were raped by the Soviets, or by Americans or British or extra-terrestrials.
Any more than I care about the exact number of Jews exterminated by the Nazis or the exact number of Russian POWs killed or allowed to die by the Nazis.
Or the exact number of Poles or German POWS killed by the Soviets.
And so on.
Most European nations in WWII behaved like a bunch of cunts, and generally the further east they were the worse they behaved, ignoring the brilliantly brutal cuntishness of the cunts in parts of Yugoslavia which wasn’t that far east.
Those peoples all bear the appropriate level of blame for their conduct and sympathy for their suffering.
So far as the degree of their evil is concerned, I really couldn’t care if they had five thousand six hundred and ninety four or elebenty leben hairs on their cunts. They were still cunts.
Attempts at statistical guilt reduction, or increase, based on nonsensical arithmetic don’t alter the fact that the Nazis were cunts in occupied territories and so were the Soviets.
That is not correct.
All the data I used is present in my post #18. If you disagree with some of it, you should correct me. But the model is there, and it is explained. There are no hiden points in there.
Well this look like a true.
I can admit there were 15 mln of germans in ALL Soviet zone, including Austria.500k might be really raped for a all period. Its quite wrong to claim, however, the fate all of them were determined by soviet authorities. In fact the post war deportation of germans were organized by Polish and CHehoslovakian authorities.Either the claim that 500k of woman were raped exclusively by Red Army is not correct.
I am not 100% sure, but my impression that Reichling does not actualy mean that all aleged 2M rapes were done exclusivly by Soviets.
But maybe Flamethrougherguy could help on this.
Yes it does. The 100K is also resonable figure IMO.
When you say reasonable figure, you base it on what ground?
If the general public doesn’t give a fuck, it doesn’t give a fuck what the figure is.
As for the figure being 2m, I haven’t heard the general public giving a fuck about that either, any more than they give a fuck about the 6m Soviets who died and about which they are equally ignorant.
I did not say they would remember the actual number of 2M.
The only thing that would stuck in their heads is: they raped everyone from 8 to 80.
EDIT: As for me, I fully agree with B.Johr on that “Independently from the fact that every rape is a horrific itself, it is namely the total number that gives it historical significance, affects the society as a whole.”
I don’t speak for anyone else but myself and I think for the most part I try to adhere to what is orthodox history as that is what I generally believe to be correct. Firstly, I was the one that shut down the picture precipitating this thread largely because I do not want to here about which Soviet Red Army members raped whom just as I do not want to see comments on how many villagers a German squad murdered every time I see a pic of German Heer. And the way to counter false, idiotic Nazi-cunt claims is to counter them with the truth. That while I am sorry that German women were raped, and some Germans were summarily executed for any ties to the SS by Soviet soldiers, I would also understand the Russian thirst for revenge and of humiliation of the German society that invaded them and caused catastrophic suffering to the Russians and other Soviet peoples of unfathomable proportions. I’m also sorry that German civilians were firebombed or otherwise killed by Western Allied bombing. But I will not quibble nor make things up in order to engage in a battle of fascist vs. stalinist propaganda and revisionist, apologist histories. Nor do any of the Allied atrocities in anyway justify the conduct of the Third Reich who started the awful mess to begin with and began murdering, raping, and firebombing population centers before any of the Allied belligerents did…
Beevor himself, as the man detested by many Russians, says the Germans deserve no special considerations and while their suffering in regrettable, they are not in the same status of victimhood as the Jews, peoples of the former USSR, Yugoslavs, Italians, Belgians, French, and pretty much anyone else certain elements of the German machine (and their collaborators of various nationalities who were numerous and varied) decided to terrorize…
Beevor also states clearly at several points in his book, at least three times that I recall, that NOT ALL Red Army soldiers were rapists. In fact, he points out that few of the advance elements of Red Army infantry and armor troops --the ones who suffered the most deprivation-- committed rapes as they simply didn’t have time to much more than grab a watch…
Or you have an other opinion? :rolleyes:
We don’t need to hide the red army crimes - we will only win if the real criminals will be judged.
But judge imply the investigation and studiing of testimonies.
The figure of 2 mln if EXACTLY THAT propogandic figure that actively is used NOW by Neonizis in west as justification of NS.You should be aware of it.
What’s the point of any of that? The basic impulse here is to acknowledge that this whole shitty, inhuman episode happened so maybe everyone will think twice about allowing it to happen again.
And the Neonazis are the same losers who worship people who mostly ran and abandoned the German military and civil populations they thoroughly fucked as they left behind the average German civilians and soldiers to face the wrath of the Red Army. Beevor also points out that the Himmlers and Bormanns, and their nameless little henchmen, who were ordering the hanging of any German soldiers who retreated themselves and ran as far West as they could with few exceptions and generally tried avoiding contact with the Red Army and more often than not --took the cowards way out! You simply remind them of this, that there would have been no rapes if the Nazis hadn’t attacked the Soviet Union to begin with and horrifically murdered a good proportion of its population…
Well, the anecdotal evidence is that most German women of sexual age were raped or were lucky if they weren’t. Secondly, I’m not sure what the point of public opinion had to do with anything by May of 1945. The Germans were defeated and I doubt many women were particularly proud to have been raped or enjoyed embellishing any of this.
But there is simply too much historical data from too many sources including from members of the Soviet intelligentsia, foreign slave laborers and POWs, German communists who fought on the side of the USSR (including some who would go on to serve in the gov’t of the DDR), etc. to discount the fact that this was a prevalent problem and a collapse of discipline aided by fundamentally weak unit leadership and a failure at higher levels to grasp that this was becoming a serious problem quickly enough…
Some of them are.
I agree, that is a relevant question to ask.
The differnece in this particular case would be (from the top of my head) that a) understanding exactly what the losses mean, i.e. out of 13,5M Soviet civilian victims, only 7,5M is atributed as “killed intentinally”, this is including Holocaust victims too; b) on German side existed state driven ideological antipathy towards some parts of local population. On the Soviet side this deliberate anthipaty policy was not present. The alledged “Kill German” pamphlet by Ilya Ehrenburg was serving completely different purpose, though I agree that it backfired when RKKA entered Germany; c) During the war, the Gemran army spent longer time in USSR then Soviet in German territories.
Otherwise I would preffer if we could continue (if you wish so) this particular topic in another thread.
I agree there was no specific policy of antipathy on the Soviet side nor was Ilya strictly controlled nor told what to say by the Soviet gov’t. In fact, according to Beevor, I believe he was effectively muzzled by Stalin and fell out of favor as his rhetoric went from useful to tiresome --and he may well have faced Siberia had he not enjoyed celebrity status and popularity with the Red Army.
On the contrary, Beevor also reports that the ‘revenge-rhetoric’ was cooled and Stalin and his advisers wanted a transition from simple ‘revenge’ to a theme of ‘liberation’ of the Germans from fascism in order to prevent an insurgency and to effectively win their “hearts and minds” to make an occupied Germany governable. It is in fact stated that the Red Army saved the German population from starvation and worked hard to feed the hungry Berliners to the extent that many Germans thought of some as heroes. It seems to have been a complex, love hate relationship where the Germans were alternately puzzled that the Red Army raped many of their young women early on, yet then later worked hard to prevent famine and disease and the soldiers took great care of the German children insuring that they were fed first. I think the simple answer is that the German population was dehumanized to the avg. Red Army soldier through propaganda, both understandably and perhaps necessarily. But as the Germans starved and suffered, the avg. Red Army soldier again began to see them as humans and themselves as their protectors and overseers as well as occupiers. Unfortunately, it took time for that transition to fully take place…
Which is consistent with various bits of evidence that rape was most often a crime committed in rear areas as the fighting troops, on all sides, were fully occupied with other matters.
It was certainly a problem in rear areas of Allied occupied France and Belgium in 1944.
From the autumn of 1944 until the end of the war, Belgians also complained bitterly about American troops systematically looting furniture and household possessions. The Liège press started using the term “gangsters” about US soldiers, and there were reports of armed hold-ups and the theft of valuables from passers-by. American official hypocrisy in refusing to regulate brothels also ensured that the armies carried venereal disease everywhere they went (by the end of the war, helped partly by a shortage of condoms, 14% of American troops were estimated to have the disease). A recent French film seeks to glamorise the wartime contribution of French colonial troops, yet in truth their units were notorious for rape and murder.
Hitchcock, whose study of military behaviour focuses chiefly on the US Army, notes that while only 15 white American soldiers were executed for crimes in Europe during 1944-45, 55 black Americans were hanged for rape or murder. This almost certainly represented the harsher attitude adopted by the American high command towards black offenders. Many men guilty of grievous mistreatment of civilians were lightly treated. The author writes: “The evidence shows that sexual violence against women in liberated France was common.” With the American entry into Germany, the situation seems to have have become even worse, with the army’s Judge Advocate General reporting “an avalanche” of new cases. When a Stars and Stripes reporter tried to file a story in March 1945 about the widespread prevalence of rape in the Rhineland, it was suppressed by army censors.
The British Army was by no means blameless. Yvette Levy, a concentration-camp victim who was liberated in 1945, experienced terrible cruelties at the hands of the Red Army, which was as ready to beat and rape Hitler’s victims as his people. But, when at last she and some of her companions reached the western zone, they met British soldiers demanding sex in exchange for food. “A man in uniform loses all his dignity,” she said bitterly. “I don’t know what these men thought of us - they must have taken us for wild animals.” http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/book_reviews/article5523304.ece#
So what’s the point of this?
Simply that no nation has clean hands, but the fact remains that some behaved worse than others.
P.S. Note the last paragraph on p. 132 which indicates the wide range of numbers allegedly raped and the ultimate futility of trying to determine the exact number.
It was substantially worse of a problem in Algiers, where static units of US soldiers with very poor leadership and little ongoing training “rampaged” in one particular episode. Rick Atkinson writes of an instance where US soldiers went berserk and began raping the women starting with the local North African populace before they began on the French and French-Jewish colonials…
But of course, the French officers themselves turned their backs on notoriously brutal rapes, indiscriminate murders, and looting committed by their Algerian Berber colonial troops in Italy against an ally…
I seem to recall that the Goumiers also raped a lot of women in France in 1944-45, but I have vague impression that it was censored or suppressed for something to do with French internal or colonial politics. Or maybe I’m just terminally Alzheimers.
Also in Germany, the Morrocans committed lots of rapes in occupied Germany (e.g. at the south-western German town of Freudenstadt). Interestingly it’s reported that the Tunisians behaved very well though.
Going back to Egorka’s attempt at a statistical analysis, it’d be interesting to know what proportion of troops of which country committed rapes in the areas they conquered and or occupied, which is the only basis for working out who was worst.
My understanding is that the Goumiers were, by pre-war European standards (I say that to distinguish those standards from the much lower standards which applied in much of Europe during the war), a somewhat primitive bunch and that their raping derived from an understanding that rape was one of the spoils of the victors. If so, that makes them rather less bad than, say, Americans who came from a society with supposedly opposite values.
As Nick indicated earlier, a lot of the rapes might be reflective of poor leadership rather than any moral deficiency in the troops of a given nation.
Which is a point that has been made by some authors about Soviet troops in Germany being well behaved in some units but not in others with poor leadership, or with a leadership which permitted rape, but I can’t think of a source at the moment.
The model ( or way of statistical analisys ) is probably a correct, Igor, by the number of accidental coef in “matrix” is pretty arbitrary and unreliable .SO the model is unclear for final resault.
Plus, emotionally , you “scientific method” and "matrix manipulation " may cause a …panic among some guys and followed accusation in “silly logic and statements”
You have to take it into consideration every time you will extract the square root from you matrix:) people dislike the Devil’s mathematic.Lets follow the more simple way.
This of couse not prove i don’t respect the Great method of ‘sensitivity analysis’ that , however in lack of reliable full datas might suffer a… lack of sensitivity.
This is exactly that case IMO.
You attempt of analisys is right ,your post ¹ 32 and 33 are worth for thinking.
I am not 100% sure, but my impression that Reichling does not actualy mean that all aleged 2M rapes were done exclusivly by Soviets.
Now it doesn’t matter.
Bevoure concluded it was done , exclusively by Soviets, on statistic of Reichling.
Its not the history but politic.
Indeed netiher statistic of born “Russekinders” nor the abortion can’t be 100% exact, coze both of cases includes the forced prostitution as well as rapings.
Only the reports and statistic of Police might be correct in calculation of rapings, but we have no a such datas,except the few dozen reports of NKVD about "immoral " behaving of Red army soldiers.
When you say reasonable figure, you base it on what ground?
[/quote]
Honestly i based it on flamethrowerguy’s post, who is claim it was based on Johr datas.
I trust him…
Nick , i know you are enough smart to make the right conclusion from any reading. But peoples are different.
It’s clear now for me , that the single and MAIN resault of Bevour’s biased work is that now, the neonazi will operate the old goebbels propogandic stereotypes kinda “all from 8 to 80 were raped” as “historically proved”. Justl like they now used the work of other prominent british author D. Irving who prove for them the another some highly interesting points,whitewashed Third Reich
The figure 2 mln of raped now is introduced as “correct” into the , independently which datas were used.
What’s the point of any of that? The basic impulse here is to acknowledge that this whole shitty, inhuman episode happened so maybe everyone will think twice about allowing it to happen again.
The point is the politic.
You have to realize that.
And the Neonazis are the same losers who worship people who mostly ran and abandoned the German military and civil populations they thoroughly fucked as they left behind the average German civilians and soldiers to face the wrath of the Red Army. Beevor also points out that the Himmlers and Bormanns, and their nameless little henchmen, who were ordering the hanging of any German soldiers who retreated themselves and ran as far West as they could with few exceptions and generally tried avoiding contact with the Red Army and more often than not --took the cowards way out! You simply remind them of this, that there would have been no rapes if the Nazis hadn’t attacked the Soviet Union to begin with and horrifically murdered a good proportion of its population…
Ah common Nick. We all know the standardized western vertion who was a bad side of that war.USSR and Germany, right?
So, Bevoure just has written a book on in coordinance with that GEneral line. Barbarian russians against sadist germans:)Like in old good times.
Of course bevour mentioned ( shortly) the standard vertion of haw was terrible occupation regime in east( mainly toward jews). The english man wrote a book about last days a Berlin , has counted all the grammas, raped by red army , and quite accidentally ( i want to believe) forgot to count rough the thousands of babies in berlin, killed by british bombs.:mrgreen:
It’s look enough stupid out of anglo-saxon world.
This is beause you do not understand the purpose of the excercise in post #18, and instead replace it with the purpose that YOU think it has.
I repeat again that the purpose was to make a model (a calculation, if you wish) which would allow to look at the event in question under different angles. It is not ment to produce a single numerical result.
I have been working for the past 11 years doing similar stuff. You don’t just think I make it up, do you?
Plus, emotionally , you “scientific method” and "matrix manipulation " may cause a …panic among some guys and followed accusation in “silly logic and statements”
I write for grownups and mentaly stable people. I think most people on this forum are so.
might suffer a… lack of sensitivity.
I do not understand what you want to say with this.
Honestly i based it on flamethrowerguy’s post, who is claim it was based on Johr datas.
I trust him…
I trust him too. So?
He just quoted number from the Johr’s article.
I asked if after reading posts #32 and #33 you still think that Johr’s assesment is resonable. Is it?
I wrote that Sander/Johr book is a better source cause it is attempting to investigate the issue and proposes a solution to posed questions.
The Beevor’s book has completely different purpose and the issue of rapes is only a side story for him. Therefore Beevor barely quotes Sander/Johr ans that is it. So if one wants to criticise Beevor on the issue of rape, one has to inevitably address Johr’s article and see if it holds criticism.
That is what I ment by saying that “Liberators and Liberated” is a owerall good and sensible book (so I was told).
…and German Dr. Gerhard Reichling (the guy who examined the documents of these two Berlin hospitals).
Do you mean that it was not Johr, but Reichling who examined the Hospital records? I had completely opposite impression: Johr worked with the records of one of the smaller Berlin hospitals (Actually Beevor willingly or not states that it was one of the major Berlin hospital. That is not true.).
What sources Rechling had we don’t know. I seems unlikely ever to find out.
There are various figures, claims and assertions about the percentage of rapes and other sexual assaults which are not reported to police even now in Western societies which supposedly are much less judgmental and censorious about rape victims than was the case in the 1940s and therefore supposedly much more likely to result in rapes being reported.
Over the past twenty years or so I have seen several women of various ages almost every year who claim to have been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted. In almost all cases I believe them on objective grounds, although there are a few who might have mental problems or other reasons for making baseless complaints.
Some of these women have gone on to try to lodge complaints with police, and in some cases didn’t even get past a disbelieving arsehole copper, and not necessarily a male one.
I can recall only one woman who got a matter to trial. She lost. The acquitted defendant was convicted shortly after in another trial of exactly the same offences against another victim. The prosecutors didn’t proceed with a complaint by a third victim about identical offences. From information I had which could not come out in the trials, I know the bastard was as guilty as hell but his fucking wife lied for him, probably because she didn’t want to lose her meal ticket if he went to gaol.
So, on that single offender, he got away with two thirds of his offences in a society and legal system which was supposedly sympathetic to victims of rape and determined to avoid the dark past where the system was stacked against the victim. Yeah, right!
If women in the modern West still have problems getting a rape complaint off the ground when there is so much support from the sisterhood and in law for them, they would have had bugger all chance of getting it off the ground in a devastated Germany where the police and prosecutors would have been overwhelmed if all the complaints had been lodged.
But in almost all cases they wouldn’t be lodged because (a) of social stigmas attached to advertsing oneself as a rape victim; (b) because of the realistic perception that German police had no power compared with the power of whichever occupying force’s soldier was accused of the crime; and (c) because a beaten people subjected to the arbitrary powers of an occupying force learns to keep its head down in the hope of surviving the apparently limitless power and abuses of the occupier.
I agree that the lack or low number of filed police cases is NOT an evidence that RKKA didn’t rape. At that time functions of German police were very limited if noneexistent.
