Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

Nick , i know you are enough smart to make the right conclusion from any reading. But peoples are different.
It’s clear now for me , that the single and MAIN resault of Bevour’s biased work is that now, the neonazi will operate the old goebbels propogandic stereotypes kinda “all from 8 to 80 were raped” as “historically proved”. Justl like they now used the work of other prominent british author D. Irving who prove for them the another some highly interesting points,whitewashed Third Reich
The figure 2 mln of raped now is introduced as “correct” into the , independently which datas were used.

Goebbels used various outrages for propaganda just as the Soviet authorities used German atrocities for the same purpose. That doesn’t mean said atrocities didn’t take place nor does it mean that discussion should be silenced.

And to your point regarding Neonazis using Beevor’s work for their own aims, well, then they’d have to contend with his writings in said work about the often cowardly actions of Nazi Party officials and the portrait of a deranged, ranting Hitler that cared nothing for the German people he was sacrificing. They would also have to face Beevor’s other seminal work, Stalingrad, which goes in depth regarding the policies of the Third Reich during Operation Barbarossa and the merciless slaughter of millions of Russian civilians and Soviet POWs…

They would also have to acknowledge that the Soviets worked hard to feed Germany and prevent a general famine from occurring, something which their Nazi “heroes” had no pretension of in their activities in the East…

The point is the politic.
You have to realize that.

The point is history, and not being revisionist about it…

Ah common Nick. We all know the standardized western vertion who was a bad side of that war.USSR and Germany, right?
So, Bevoure just has written a book on in coordinance with that GEneral line. Barbarian russians against sadist germans:)Like in old good times.
Of course bevour mentioned ( shortly) the standard vertion of haw was terrible occupation regime in east( mainly toward jews). The english man wrote a book about last days a Berlin , has counted all the grammas, raped by red army , and quite accidentally ( i want to believe) forgot to count rough the thousands of babies in berlin, killed by british bombs.:mrgreen:
It’s look enough stupid out of anglo-saxon world.

Actually, as I’ve stated before, he mentions Allied bombing. But since the book is a narrow time frame involving the Soviet advance from the East in Eastern Germany, it’s hard to sort of spend time on it. And with death tolls in the tens of millions, I’d say both the Nazi and Stalinist ideologies were barbaric and sadistic…

[Egorka]

@Nickdfresh

The point is history, and not being revisionist about it…

Ohh, the “R”-word…
Do you mean raising this questions is “revisionism”? Like in a bad sense of the word, right?
But why?

[Chevan]

@Rising_Sun

Not in a million years.

I can recall only one woman who got a matter to trial. She lost. The acquitted defendant was convicted shortly after in another trial of exactly the same offences against another victim. The prosecutors didn’t proceed with a complaint by a third victim about identical offences. From information I had which could not come out in the trials, I know the bastard was as guilty as hell but his fucking wife lied for him, probably because she didn’t want to lose her meal ticket if he went to gaol.

sad story.
Yeah the modern juridical system is a bitch…
We have also the other cases when the on basis of false testimonies there were judged the innocent peoples and some of them were even executed.
I have read a story about Andrey Chikatilo , the most famouse russian maniac who murdered 56 persons.
But the most amazing was for me that for his crimes were executed TWO supposed maniacs. And each case was “proved” by court:)And each pseudo-maniac were “identified” by witnesses.
That’s how the soviet court system works:)
That make us to conclude the one importaint thought.
The testimonies of witness is not enough for accusation of person. We need the proper investigation process.The witness may point at the false person, as it was happend.

If women in the modern West still have problems getting a rape complaint off the ground when there is so much support from the sisterhood and in law for them, they would have had bugger all chance of getting it off the ground in a devastated Germany where the police and prosecutors would have been overwhelmed if all the complaints had been lodged.

But in almost all cases they wouldn’t be lodged because (a) of social stigmas attached to advertsing oneself as a rape victim; (b) because of the realistic perception that German police had no power compared with the power of whichever occupying force’s soldier was accused of the crime; and (c) because a beaten people subjected to the arbitrary powers of an occupying force learns to keep its head down in the hope of surviving the apparently limitless power and abuses of the occupier.

That’s for sure.
Indeed the German police weren’t at service when the war come to germany.The occupation forces had have to reorganize the former Nazis police to keep the order among civils. But for the first time the military units and provisional occupation administration did that.Which of course did not hold the exhaustive statistic of commited crimes.
So we might to operate only by datas of hospitals. But those datas don’t hold the exact figures which woman were raped by soldiers and which one were raped by say by criminals , right?
Moreover the datas of hospitals didn’t contain the information say , which indesirable pregancy was happend after act of raping or after say act of forced prostitution.And how many of act of raping suffered victims before the go to the hospital?And how many of victims had not appeal to doctors at all?
I don’t think the hospital should provide such a statistic.

[Chevan]

@Egorka

Ohh, the “R”-word…
Do you mean raising this questions is “revisionism”? Like in a bad sense of the word, right?

No you will to know how to use the “matrix calculation” in ww2 history amateur forum:)

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

Goebbels used various outrages for propaganda just as the Soviet authorities used German atrocities for the same purpose. That doesn’t mean said atrocities didn’t take place nor does it mean that discussion should be silenced.

We never silenced this theme.
And we speak and think there.

The point is history, and not being revisionist about it…

Oh common, this is don’t work for me.
I know who are the real revisionist and which “methods” they use.

Actually, as I’ve stated before, he mentions Allied bombing. But since the book is a narrow time frame involving the Soviet advance from the East in Eastern Germany, it’s hard to sort of spend time on it. And with death tolls in the tens of millions, I’d say both the Nazi and Stalinist ideologies were barbaric and sadistic…

Sure the both ideologies were wrong nasty things.
However one can’t claim that ONLY ideology force the soldiers commit the crimes over civils.
American Army has commited a lot of crimes in say Korea or Vietnam. The sadists and rapists exist in any army , independently of ideology.
The BEvours book describes the period since at least jenuary 1945, and we actualy had a talk about how he superficially mentioned the cruel bombings of that period:)
And he seriously was outraged that germans continie to call the raids terroristic;)

[Rising_Sun]

@Chevan

But the most amazing was for me that for his crimes were executed TWO supposed maniacs. And each case was “proved” by court:)And each pseudo-maniac were “identified” by witnesses.
That’s how the soviet court system works:)

Cheer up.

The Americans and other Western nations don’t do any better. http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/

For example:

North Carolina Man Exonerated After 14 Years
Posted: September 2, 2009 5:40 pm

At 2:30 this afternoon, Joseph Abbitt walked out of a North Carolina courthouse a free man for the first time in 14 years, proven innocent through DNA testing. He was serving life in prison for a rape he didn’t commit, and a state judge today vacated his sentence and dropped all charges against him.

DNA testing completed this year shows that another man raped two teenage girls in their Winston-Salem home in 1991. The North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence represents Abbitt and has worked on his case for four years. Although much of the evidence collected in the case had been destroyed, the Winston-Salem Police Department had preserved critical biological evidence collected from the victims’ bodies – and tests on this evidence proved Abbitt’s innocence.

Abbitt becomes the 242nd person exonerated in the United States through DNA testing and the seventh in North Carolina. His conviction was caused in part by eyewitness misidentifications – a factor in more than 75% of wrongful convictions overturned through DNA testing.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/2159.php?phpMyAdmin=52c4ab7ea46t7da4197

Getting back to rapes in occupied territories in WWII, how good do you think identification evidence would be of an accused soldier from any nation when they’re all wearing much the same uniform; have similar haircuts; and generally are part of a machine which is designed to make them all look as similar as possible?

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

sad story.
Yeah the modern juridical system is a bitch…
We have also the other cases when the on basis of false testimonies there were judged the innocent peoples and some of them were even executed.
I have read a story about Andrey Chikatilo , the most famouse russian maniac who murdered 56 persons.
But the most amazing was for me that for his crimes were executed TWO supposed maniacs. And each case was “proved” by court:)And each pseudo-maniac were “identified” by witnesses.
That’s how the soviet court system works:)
That make us to conclude the one importaint thought.
[b]The testimonies of witness is not enough for accusation of person. We need the proper investigation process.The witness may point at the false person, as it was happend.

Thank God for DNA evidence, which while not perfect, has released some innocent people from jail and even death row here…

[Nickdfresh]

@Egorka

Ohh, the “R”-word…
Do you mean raising this questions is “revisionism”? Like in a bad sense of the word, right?
But why?

I have no problem with revisiting historical questions and dispelling notions which are often incorrect as long as it’s done in some sort of search for a greater truth. But sometimes, there seems to be more of a nationalist or ideological bent behind things…

[Nickdfresh]

@Chevan

…
Sure the both ideologies were wrong nasty things.
However one can’t claim that ONLY ideology force the soldiers commit the crimes over civils.
American Army has commited a lot of crimes in say Korea or Vietnam. The sadists and rapists exist in any army , independently of ideology.

I couldn’t agree more. Sadists and rapists often use ideology–or field expediency–as a justification for their actions which very often are committed out of urges for their own criminal needs. Hitler surrounded himself with the latter…

The BEvours book describes the period since at least jenuary 1945, and we actualy had a talk about how he superficially mentioned the cruel bombings of that period:)
And he seriously was outraged that germans continie to call the raids terroristic;)

The bombings were not a direct topic of his book as the primary timeline mentioned included few RAF or USAAF raids in that part of Eastern Germany as Western Allied air activity was ceased in areas of Soviet occupation in order to avoid incidents of ‘friendly fire,’ which Beevor also mentions. But I never got the impression that Beevor was a big fan of “area bombing” as many contemporary British historians, especially the likes of Keegan, criticize the concept on many levels addition to the humanitarian concerns of indiscriminate killing…

[Egorka]

@Nickdfresh

But sometimes, there seems to be more of a nationalist or ideological bent behind things…

Which is, you think, the case here, right?

[Nickdfresh]

@Egorka

Which is, you think, the case here, right?

I didn’t say that. But Beevor certainly has drawn the ire of some Russian historians…

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

I couldn’t agree more.

oh ,you did it 90% of time here and since most beginning of this particular thread:)

Sadists and rapists often use ideology–or field expediency–as a justification for their actions which very often are committed out of urges for their own criminal needs. Hitler surrounded himself with the latter…

This is true.However the sadism was often arbitrary.If you fight the enemy who don’t adhere to a Huge rules, you can’t follow it too.

The bombings were not a direct topic of his book as the primary timeline mentioned included few RAF or USAAF raids in that part of Eastern Germany as Western Allied air activity was ceased in areas of Soviet occupation in order to avoid incidents of ‘friendly fire,’ which Beevor also mentions.

The bombing was not a topic, but the life of berliners was.
And i hadn’t noticed Bevoure anxiety of this subject, moreover he specialy trued to make the impression , that the mass killing of Germans civiliances by firestorm is not a such terrible thing compared to raping:)
Funny man.

[Chevan]

@Nickdfresh

But sometimes, there seems to be more of a nationalist or ideological bent behind things…

It’s not we who have started it first, the Bevour was.

[Egorka]

An interesting article with overview of how the debate around German women rape victims had been developing. Some interesting facts on the couse of debate.
LAUREL COHEN-PFISTER:
“Rape, War, and Outrage: Changing Perceptions on German Victimhood in the period of Post-Unification.”

On page 316 where number of “estimated two million” is mentioned it is refferenced by:
[ul]
[li]Sander and Johr (1992), pp.46-73: “BeFreier Und Befreite”.[/li][li]Heinemann E.(1996), p.364: “The Hour of the Woman: Memories of Germany’s “Crisis Years” and West German National Identity.”[/li][li]Poutrus K.(1995), p.123: “Ein fixiertes Trauma - Massenvergewaltigungen bei Kriegsende in Berlin” in “Feministische Studien 13.2”[/li][li]Grossmann A. (1991), p.46: “Feminist Debates about Women and National Socialism.” in “Gender & History 3.3”[/li][/ul]

[Uyraell]

I had not initially intended to post to this thread, but one minor point in various guises has been several times raised by various contributors, namely, “At which (statistical) point does ‘forced prostitution’ become discernable as identical to rape?”

The author Peter Elstob makes minor reference in one of his books to an incident that eerily corroborates a circumstance related to me by a woman who, as a young teen, had witnessed a similar set of circumstances.
She was the mother of a college (highschool, in American terms) classmate of mine.

The incident she witnessed is as follows: she knew a girl of 10, who had younger brothers and a sister. The oldest of the younger brothers was 8, the little sister was 6, and the youngest brother, 5. Their parents were both dead.

The 10year old girl was “asked” to share the sleeping bag of a GI, whose unit was then in occupation of the town. Come the morning, the GI gave her a bar of chocolate as payment. The girl said she had two brothers and a sister who had not eaten in about 2 days. The GI gave her tins of rations for them, plus a tin for herself, on condition she again shared his sleeping bag that night. The deal was agreed-to, by the girl, who carried out a similar deal for the rest of the time the American troops occupied the town, some 6 months or so.

Plainly, the circumstance is definable as forced prostitution, as well as being what today would be a charge of raping a minor. However: it is also simple human barter at work, in as much as the 10 year-old was feeding her family as best she was able to arrange in very difficult circumstances.

While I in NO way condone what took place between the 10year-old and the GI, I am aware that it simply reflects what must have been multiple thousands of similar cases occurring throughout occupied Europe at that time.

Thus, I would have to conclude, that in the case of occupied Berlin, such things continued as ‘normal for the timeframe’ regardless of which occupied sector of Berlin one refers.

Having said all the above: it seems reasonable to conclude that a “figure” of two million “rapes” would necessarily include an extremely large percentage of cases similar to the one I describe above, and variant only in age of the female ‘participant’. I’d estimate/guess/gamble that up to 65% of the so-called “rapes” would in fact have been similar cases to that I outlined.
Such seems to be a reasonable approach to the topic, regardless of mathematical analyses, however well constructed they be. That said, I’m inclined to agree with Igor’s well-thought-out modelling, making the same allowances he does.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Rising_Sun]

@Uyraell

Plainly, the circumstance is definable as forced prostitution, as well as being what today would be a charge of raping a minor. However: it is also simple human barter at work, in as much as the 10 year-old was feeding her family as best she was able to arrange in very difficult circumstances.

While I in NO way condone what took place between the 10year-old and the GI, I am aware that it simply reflects what must have been multiple thousands of similar cases occurring throughout occupied Europe at that time.

Any adult male who fucks a 10, or 12 or 14 or 16, year old child is a despicable paedophile who should be shot on sight.

A 10 year old child is incapable of giving proper consent to sexual intercourse with an adult.

It is appalling that anyone could think that there is any fair trade in such a child trading sex for food with an adult male of any army.

We shouldn’t be trying to explain the child surviving but we should be condemning the cunt who fucked her.

It goes beyond rape to paedophilia.

Point me to a cunt that did it and I’d happily shoot him in the balls, then the knees, then the ankles, then both hips. And leave him to enjoy life after that, dragging himself along the ground for the rest of his rotten life. And while he was dragging himself along the ground on his skateboard, I’d shoot the cunt in both shoulders just to fuck up that little bit of mobility for him.

Any man that fucks a child under any circumstances is beneath an amimal. Beneath fucking bacteria!

@Uyraell

Having said all the above: it seems reasonable to conclude that a “figure” of two million “rapes” would necessarily include an extremely large percentage of cases similar to the one I describe above, and variant only in age of the female ‘participant’.

So, it’s okay for the victor to fuck the vanquished if the victor has a tin of food and the vanquished is hungry?

What sort of crazy moral compass says that is alright?

However, if it is acceptable, what is the basis for concern about looting and rapes in New Orleans after Katrina? Surely they’re just people in similarly difficult circumstances trying to survive?

I don’t see any gray. Just black and white.

Either you fuck another adult who is fully consenting in circumstances where there is an equality of bargaining power.

Or you don’t and then you’re somewhere between a paedophille, sex abuser and rapist. Any of which should be game for free game stamps.

[Uyraell]

RS, I agree with your opinion of what took place.
However, I do NOT condone the event.

I simply reported what had been told me by one who witnessed it.
As to the barter side of it, regardless of how morally wrong such a transaction was, it did take place. As many thousands of such transactions must have taken place throughout Europe at the time, which was the point I was making.

At No point in My post did I condone it: for, as you, I find such things reprehensible beyond measure.

I certainly did NOT intend to offend anyone by relating here what had been told me in person many years ago.
That I seem to have caused offence, I Apologise for.

I had simply intended to add to the contributions that had mentioned forced prostitution, which was the aspect that most struck my mind as comparable to rape.
As to the soldier who did as was related to me: be assured, I do condemn him.

As to age 16: that is the age of consent in NZ, and in Australia, as far as I’m aware. I don’t see that someone should be condemned as a paedophile if within those nations, they have heeded those legalities.

Regards, Uyraell.

[Rising_Sun]

@Uyraell

That I seem to have caused offence, I Apologise for.

No, you didn’t, and you don’t need to apologise.

I was outraged by what the soldier did, not by you reporting it.

It’s a topic I’m very sensitive about for various reasons, not least that in the past few days I’ve been informed about a now 15 year old girl I know who was raped by her older brother’s mate when she was 7 and a now 17 year old girl I know who was raped by her own brother when she was 10. It fucks those kids up like nothing else, except incest which is the bottom of the slime bucket.

Another reason is a gang rape of two girls by a large group of mid to late teen boys from my area, and what seems to be an increasing prevalence of gang rapes by boys in that age group in Australia.

These pieces of shit and everyone who thinks like them should be removed from the gene pool.

@Uyraell

[b][u]As to age 16: that is the age of consent in NZ, and in Australia, as far as I’m aware. I don’t see that someone should be condemned as a paedophile if within those nations, they have heeded those legalities.

Regards, Uyraell.

Fair point, although during WWII I suspect that the age of consent was higher here. I don’t know about Germany.

I’m still not comfortable with 16 as the unqualified age of consent. It’s reasonable where the partner is only a few years older than a 16 year old, but somewhere past there the age and experience discrepancy becomes so great that the child, and she or he is still a child for almost all other legal purposes, is prey to the older person.

And when the older person has inducements, even as basic as food in desperate circumstances in the case you mentioned, the inequality makes the child even more vulnerable to an exploitative adult.

[flamethrowerguy]

@Rising_Sun

Fair point, although during WWII I suspect that the age of consent was higher here. I don’t know about Germany.

If in 1943 a grown up male was caught having a sexual relation to a person below the age of 21 he was in major trouble.

[herman2]

@flamethrowerguy

If in 1943 a grown up male was caught having a sexual relation to a person below the age of 21 he was in major trouble.

…but wern’t they taking men at 16 into the German Army?or 18?..I mean if your old enough to sacrifice your life then was it that strict! wow!~