Yes, Medvedev i Putin finally did it. I’m happy they did (I don’t know if I can say I’m proud)
Just these days I remembered about this forum and I was curious if these people who represent Russia here. If they still deny the Soviet responsibility, and generally how it looks like.
They were no MORE allies in time of Nurenberg trial in 1946, mate.
Coz the ww2 was over, and formally Britain has to inform the polish side ( London’s poles) which was in Nurenberg alongside with soviet and british representatives about any avialable documents about Katyn, including Enigma decrypts.
Why they haven’t done this?
Not in a fighting sense, but the USSR participated fully in the trials as judges and prosecutors with other Allies filling the same roles. The trials were an Allied exercise.
No idea.
Not something I’ve read on, so the following comments are just surmise.
Why did the Soviets try to pin Katyn on the Nazis at the trials? Not that it resulted in anything.
Probably just the East and West playing political games for their own purposes. Politicians generally don’t give a shit about people or truth when it interferes with their or their party’s or their nation’s interests or ambitions.
If it had been to the West’s advantage at the time to disclose Soviet involvement in Katyn I expect that would have been done. But it would have been difficult to reveal Soviet responsibility for Katyn while Soviet judges and prosecutors were involved in trying Nazis for exactly the same sort of conduct. So maybe Katyn had to be ignored to preserve the public integrity of the Allies’ prosecution of Germans for, among other things, doing what the Soviets did at Katyn.
Which brings us back to the whole issue of victor’s justice, or lack of it.
My suspicion is that it was simply too embarrassing to admit that they’d known about this for 5 years - the whole guilt by association thing would start kicking in, and any government admitting to it would get lynched by the electorate. Additionally, they knew this through Enigma decrypts, and these were Ultra-secret until the 1970s when the people who had worked on it were starting to die off and one of them wanted the world to know what they had done. Until then, nobody knew that Enigma had been cracked and for a very long time postwar a lot of governments used it to protect their message traffic - which the US and UK were promptly reading. All in all, apart from some minor embarrassment to the Soviets there were very few advantages to any Western government for disclosing this and a lot of huge costs - so why would they?
As i heard Soviet knew about disclosing Enigma ( operation “Ultra” ) since at least 1939. Kim Philby - soviet top spion has informed the NKVD intelligent department about that fact.And another soviet spy - John Cairncross send to USSR the tonns of top secret documents, including the disclosed Enigma decrypts.
As for the Poles- the exactly polish intelligence , disclosed the first ENigma codes.Moreover , namely poland passed to Britain the all their decrypts project in 1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptanalysis_of_the_Enigma#Polish_disclosures
In January 1940, the British cryptanalyst Alan Turing spent several days at PC Bruno conferring with his Polish colleagues. He had brought the Poles Zygalski sheets that had been produced at Bletchley Park by John Jeffreys using Polish-supplied information, but which were not working. It turned out that the wirings in Enigma rotors IV and V that Rejewski had worked out, had been copied down wrongly.[75] Correcting this error allowed the Poles to make, on 17 January 1940, the first break into wartime Enigma traffic—that from 28 October 1939
So indeed the Ultra was no more secret for manies, including Poland.( both Lublin’s poles and London’s poles).
And they probably should know about Katyn , mentioned in Enigma decrypts. But nobody of poles hasn’t even mentioned this fact. It looks strange.
May we watch the official documents about Enigma decrypts that deels to Katyn massacre?
Thing is, the British didn’t know about the Cambridge spy ring (Philby/Cairncross/Burgess/Maclean/etc.) until what, the late 1960s - long after the relevant date. In any case, Soviet communications weren’t the only ones of interest.
Additionally, there is a big difference between knowing that it was possible to break Enigma (which some Poles did) and knowing the content of the message traffic going down it (which few if any did). The latter would be required for them to know about Katyn.
I can’t find anything handy on the internet about the Katyn decrypts - wiki only mentions them in passing, and that’s about it. You may be able to get something from the Public Record Office in Kew, but that sort of thing is more likely to remain classified for 100 years or have been destroyed at the time as too inflammatory.
Let me just add my 2 cents.
Most Poles were not deluded, and we always knew this crime was committed by the USSR. This crime is so important to us because those who died were the intellectual elite of the post world war I Poland. From those killed about 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest were Polish doctors, professors, lawmakers, police officers, and other public servants. Poland’s conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer.
It was planed and executed on the top levels of the Soviet government. The lack of those killed helped Stalin immensely to take control of Poland through its new communist government after the war and let us not forget the Soviet forces that were stationed in Poland until the 90’s.
The dispute between Russia and Poland right now is that Poland wishes the Katyn massacre to be recognized as genocide:
“Because of the circumstances of the Katyn Massacre, i.e. the fact that it was planned down to the very last detail by the highest party and state authorities of the USSR and carried out by the state apparatus under their authority, and on account of the scale and cruelty of the extermination of thousands of innocent people and the motives of the perpetrators, there is justification in considering the permissibility of applying the qualification of genocide within the meaning of art. 11 of the convention of 9 December 1948. The selection of persons for extermination was also characterised by the fact that they formed part of the intellectual elite of the Polish Nation which, under the appropriate conditions, could assume leadership. The physical elimination of these people was meant to prevent the rebirth of Polish statehood based on their intellectual potential. Therefore the decision of elimination was taken with the intention of destroying the strength of the Polish Nation and liquidate its elites. Therefore one can conclude that the murder of Polish prisoners of war and Polish civilians by the NKVD was dictated by a desire to liquidate part of the Polish national group. Hence, this action assumed the status of genocide as described in art. II of the Convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide. The view whereby the extermination of Polish citizens is an act of genocide was also expressed in the USSR’s stance during the trial of Nazi war criminals before the Nuremberg Tribunal after the end of World War II. On the 59th day of that trial, Prosecutor Yuri Pokrovskiy, deputy chief Soviet counsel for the prosecution, presented the Katyn Massacre as an atrocity that had taken the lives of 11,000 Polish victims and said that this Massacre was subject to the judgment of the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg. Hence, such a stance by the Russian side was based on a recognition of the murder as a crime that falls within the scope of the International Criminal Tribunal on account of its seriousness, in other words a crime which, on accounts of its particular nature and the circumstances in which it was perpetrated, should be judged according to international criminal law.”
I do not have any links to the Russian sides official stance on the matter right now. It has changed immensely in the last year and more so after the plane crash but I do not think Russia will recognize Katyn as genocide.
A lot of us Poles (me included) are very grateful for the support we received from the Russian people after the faithful plane crush and I plan to light some candles on the 9th of may (Russian V day) on the Russian soldiers cemetery here in Wroclaw (former German city name Breslau). The fallen soldiers had no idea of the crimes of the Soviet regime against their own people and the citizens of other countries.
By other words, we can’t know for sure the Katyn decryps ever exist?
But anyway, british side knew for sure - the Katyn was a NKVD job all the time, as it states today.So why they honestly didn’t support the poles in Nurenberg?
…i.e. Polish point is the Katyn massacre should be recognized as Ethnic Genocide.
But why?
What is polish intentions in that?What poland want to get from it?
Let me present the russian point.Structly it wasn’t ethnic genocide. Coz the fact didn’t confirm the NKVD want to kill all the poles just like the Nazis were going to exterminate all the gipsys or jews.The Red Army took roughtly 450 000 of polish Pow in 1939. 20 000+ of which have been murdered in Katyn.The rest succesfully created Army Anders in 1942 or joined to Polish People Army in 1944 .
Obviously the NKVD killed those who has been considered as “class-enemies”. the Ethnical principles were not decisive in selection of victims. It was tupical communist “class approach”.
The Boslhevics has murdered up to 5 mln of ethnical Russians in Civil war 1918-1921.But they killed them not as russians but as class enemies.So hardly it was ethnic genocide.
But anyway, Katyn is definitally can be classified as typical “Military crime” according the Huge conventions.With all of the consequences…
Not for another 30 years, probably. The British keep records of everything, but this sort of thing will most likely be under the 100 year rule
As I said above, I think it was purely avoiding embarrassment.
What purpose would it have served to “support the Poles in Nuremberg?” What British, or American, interests would have been served? The Cold War was not yet in full swing and there was little point in devolving the trials into anything beyond “Victors’ Justice.” Both nations also provided massive lead lease support after knowing full well what probably happened. So yes, that would have been embarrassing…
Secondly, to attempt to make any sort of case using supposed Enigma decrypts would have been sketchy at best. The British, as well as the Americans, would have had to acknowledge that they also had decrypts involving the Holocaust and Nazi atrocities long before victory over the Third Reich was achieved. There was an excellent article on all this published in the New York Times sometime in the late 1990s–about how the Western Allies were regularly receiving reports on various Nazi atrocities, and were essentially ignoring them as militarily irrelevant. The reasoning being that it was more important to get the German order of battle than to figure out why they were expending absurdly huge resources building camps to kill people in. And also because both Churchill and FDR feared the War effort devolving from a perception as one of a fight for the national survival of democracy against fascism to one of a crusade to save the Jews and other victims of the Nazi hierarchy…
Incidentally, the U.S. and British were well aware of Stalin’s penchant for killing all possible rivals and troublemakers. I once read that at Yalta (?), Stalin said something to FDR to the affect that all of the German high command and political elites should be mass executed whether they were Nazis or not. I believe Roosevelt took it as something of a very dark humored half-joke whereas Churchill reacted forcefully and with horror stating that such a thing would be barbaric and completely against the very thing they had been fighting for IIRC…
Perhaps there was also the consideration that, although the Soviet extermination was not covered by the Anglo-French-Polish defence arrangements, it would be unwise to draw attention to massacres which might have been avoided if the British and French had been more energetic in defending Poland?
This ignores the inability of Britain and France to do much more than they did, but from a Polish perspective Katyn might be seen as another evil visited on Poland because Britain and France were found wanting in defending it, so it could not be to Britain’s advantage to reveal what it knew from Enigma.
There is an additional consideration here. From the point of view of the Western Allies, probably the thing they could do that would save the most Jewish lives would be to win the war as fast as possible. Anything that distracted from this would only give the Nazis more time for murder. The only thing I never quite understood is why they didn’t try to widely publicise what was going on, once they had credible non-ULTRA sources - the considerations that held back for instance Pius XII would clearly not apply,
Um, they’re not “morons” and I don’t recall any specific arguments that Katyn didn’t happen or that the Soviets didn’t commit the atrocity from them…
Let me say that your memory is short, there was a large debate between a polish member and this two russians involving calibers of the pistols used in the massacre,etc,etc.
The PZ mixs things up. The first moron was Rus-Loh ( widely known in narrow circles in Russian Online).His point was that we endeed has not enough evidences to hand the crime only on NKVD. He’s left us a long time ago.The Second moron was me…
But after the President Medvedev said it was NKVD for sure- what is sense to be the moron any more?
My apologies, there were 3 russian morons not just two.
And i actualy saw only SINGLE moron over here who calls the Falkland islands as “malvinas”. That’s quite strange and i love this forum for this…
No matter if I am argentine, spaniard, or from the banaba republic of Equator, the name of the island in spanish is Malvinas, is not only a reinvidication but a proper use of our language. But of course you dont know that.
Yammy! Those juicy south American banabas from this years harvest are quite delicious according to the latest gourmet reviews. “Yammy-yammy-yammy. I’ve got love in my tummy!”
Maybe they can argue how a criminal regime–that drugs its dissident college students and throws them out of C-130s over the Atlantic so their parents can’t find their bodies–has the right force a population under its control…
Now that would really be moronic…
Spanish is not spoken on the equatorial island of Banaba.
Given the many problems facing Banabans on their own island http://australianmuseum.net.au/Banabans-and-Their-Story, I doubt that they are much concerned with whether islands a long way away are called Malvinas in Spanish or Falklands in English.
It should be noted that the Spanish ‘Malvinas’ derives from the name ‘Îles Malouines’ given to the islands in the 18th century by the French who colonised part of the islands.
‘Îles Malouines’ is a proper use of French for the islands France held. Should we conclude that the islands really belong to France?
It was not a criminal regime.
It was a duly elected government. Or the next best thing, for its supporters.
Which came to power as a result of a military coup.
And was warmly welcomed by the US.
And generally fucked up Argentina beyond belief and, not content with that, as a nation with bugger-all real war experience thought it could take the Falklands and so took on one of the very few nations which has been almost continuously at war somewhere or other since about 54 B.C., if not earlier, and which has yet to lose a war that really mattered in the long term. Apart from Hastings. And the American War of Independence.
Well, if to be fair , the poes, i.e. “Army of Anders” was an Ally that fought and died ( and trusted you) at YOUR side ( and fought well as i am aware).So it might to be (hypotetically) very honest to treat them with mutual respect.The Katyn massacre endeed wasn,t just the polish-allies problematic matter - as we know befor the war in Potsdam conference the allies has agreeded with Stalin about pro-soviet puppet polish Gov in post war poland.Keeping in mind Anglo-american passivity in Katyn massacre investigation look like betrayal for polish side. I do understand it might be very embarrassing for allies, but can understand the despair of poles , who have stayed absolytly alone.
Secondly, to attempt to make any sort of case using supposed Enigma decrypts would have been sketchy at best. The British, as well as the Americans, would have had to acknowledge that they also had decrypts involving the Holocaust and Nazi atrocities long before victory over the Third Reich was achieved.
I,m strongly doubt the supposed Enigma decrypts was ONLY ( or primary) the evidence of Nazis atrocities, and never believe it’s covering would has any military effect. The polish resistence yet (it seems) in 1943 has passed to Britain the infor about what was going on Aushvitz. Plus since the yarly 1944 the allied aviation regulary photographed the germany controlled territory, including the supposed death-camps like this one
Incidentally, the U.S. and British were well aware of Stalin’s penchant for killing all possible rivals and troublemakers. I once read that at Yalta (?), Stalin said something to FDR to the affect that all of the German high command and political elites should be mass executed whether they were Nazis or not. I believe Roosevelt took it as something of a very dark humored half-joke whereas Churchill reacted forcefully and with horror stating that such a thing would be barbaric and completely against the very thing they had been fighting for IIRC…
Nah,it was joke that Eliot Roosewelt has wrote about in his book.
Stalin aimed to make fun with the Church, who as he know considered him as “bloody dictator”. Stalin said - “we shall kill the 50 000 of german officers to be sure the germany will never more pose a treat for us”…
Rooswelt smiled, Church was shoked and start to tell something kinda “my electors will not admit such a barbarian action” :)Stalin was satisfacted by Church panic… ( Eliot wrote, Rooswelt took at easy)
However, for sake of true , it wasn’t that terrible joke in conference if to keep in mind the Rooswelt promoted and seriously discussed the Morgentay’s plan to totally eliminate the Germany out of Europe.
Maybe they can argue how a criminal regime–that drugs its dissident college students and throws them out of C-130s over the Atlantic so their parents can’t find their bodies–has the right force a population under its control…
Now that would really be moronic…
I talk by myself and representing only my views, I am no an advocate of any particular argentine goverment neither receive a wage to do that so cant reply that statement.
Yammy! Those juicy south American banabas from this years harvest are quite delicious according to the latest gourmet reviews. “Yammy-yammy-yammy. I’ve got love in my tummy!”
Obviously I meaned Banana Republic of Equator, we also have the DUICF, Democratic Union of Indianic Cocaine Farmers ( known in some sources as Bolivia ), the dangerous AUWTS ( Andinian United Wallet Thief States, also called Chile), the large caliber FAASDSA ( Fully Armed Amazonian Samba Dancers of South America, oocuping the former brazil territory ) and the Bundesrepublik von Coweaters und GrillenMeisters (that will be us )
